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Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

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  • "A long, long time ago" they showed on Ace. Hunters have ALWAYS been enhanced, even 40 years ago when you ran and jumped.
    Sorry. I disagree 100%. When *I* showed in the hunters 30 years ago I did my share of winning and I never stuck my horses with anything. They went on their own and I dealt with whatever they decided to dish up in that particular class

    But it was totally different then. We had some classes in sand rings, and some in smaller grass rings but a lot were in open grass fields and forget about counting lines - you flowed through the course and saw your distance 5 or 6 strides out and adjusted accordingly. Those courses didnt favor what the hunters of today have become - the ones that won moved forward at a nice open pace and jumped brilliantly but I wouldnt call it "running and jumping" either ... Most of our stakes and classics were run more along the lines of Jumper Derby's and it was fun - it was actually interesting to watch and we did have a ton of spectators and there wasnt the standard 8 jumps around the outside and through the middle - it was a long 15-20 jump course for the Classics set up and down hills, with dry ditches, etc and some of those hunters jumping those jumps at 4+ feet took your breath away to watch them

    It just strikes me as being too "sanitized" now compared to what it once was.

    There was no reason to give Ace to anything back then - brilliance was rewarded - why give them Ace and take that favorable edge away???
    www.TrueColoursFarm.com
    www.truecoloursproducts.com

    True Colours Farm on Facebook

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    • There are horses that naturally go quietly. My horse is very quiet on his own and requires no prep other than warming up. We need to save all his energy for his classes. He hasn't been HOY or anything, but he's won his fair share in the 3'6" and 3' classes on the A circuit. He does have a little spook that makes him jump pretty. Just wanted to point out that some hunters actually are just dead quiet on their own. He gets a gram of bute after a day of showing. The only time he's ever gotten perky was at Middleburg on the grass. We had a great time! - Sad - the big grass course is gone.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
        Are we, out of sheer necessity, creating hunters that MUST be comatose, pedantic, un-expressionless because owners are now riding them who have no interest, ability or desire in jumping anything over 2 feet and they must be 100% steady so that their owners can perch up there and not get scared at all by the horse jumping big or expansively or moving at any great pace up the lines? Has the sport now evolved to the extent where this type of hunter is the desired "role model" that fetches the highest bid and the most interest from buyers?

        Nothing generally remains the same forever. I am just really curious if this road we have taken down "hunter land" is in the best interest of the horses, the owners and riders and the sport itself or if we will look back one day and say "What the heck were we thinking??? What have we done ... ... and how can we get back on track once again?"
        YESSS, we are. And NOOO, it is not in the best interest of the horse.

        I do not say this often on these boards (in fact, I'm not sure if I ever have), but I agree just about 100% with these two paragraphs. I wish riding would get back to its roots--grit, hard work, blood, tears, sweat, bravery, courage, work ethic. To me, perhaps the people who fit your description should either find another sport or do this one at a different level. That comes across wrong and is not a popular viewpoint, but I believe in looking after the horses' best interest first, not humans' wants and desires at the cost of the animal.

        If things have to get to this point because riders and trainers are incapable of producing correctness (for whatever reason), something is very, very wrong. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of people realizing that something is wrong for any changes to occur, and sadly, I think it will be too late before people start to really ask those hard questions. Perhaps you should repost that in another spinoff thread; it's a good point to debate and consider.

        As to the drugging issue.....am I horrified? Yes. Am I surprised? No. People will go to any lengths to win. Why is anyone surprised?

        But instead of complaining on an online BB, if you people really feel as strong as you come across, then DO something about it. At the very least, vote with your feet...don't do the hunters, don't play the game. Try the jumpers or the eq.

        Protest. Report people you know are violating. Doing nothing is just much a part of the problem. Be an advocate for CHANGE. Don't leave it to someone else in another generation. You may not see the results now, or even in 10 years, but by goodness, don't just sit there watching.
        It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lauriep View Post
          And so we come full circle. "A long, long time ago" they showed on Ace. Hunters have ALWAYS been enhanced, even 40 years ago when you ran and jumped.
          Yes but Laurie they still looked awake! Hunters of 40 years ago were vastly different from the hunters of today - they were fun to ride and watch. Many of today's hunter rounds* are a great prescription for my insomnia. In an ideal world, judges today would still pin the brilliant and athletic round and more riders would be able to laugh at a playful buck vs. cry for perfection the quick way.

          I'm probably dreaming, but the return of the handy hunters may just spark a change back to the hunter of yore. Actually, I am dreaming. Never mind.

          (*the Popeye K's of the world aside)
          "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BridalBridle View Post
            I use it...a lot and it does work. I use the lunge line. I use Dex. I use Ketophen. I use Methocarbonal. I use anything that will keep my horse OFF the lunge line as much as possible and be competitive.
            Now I agree it is all wrong. But if I'm going to play I'm going to play on a level field.
            It's the field that's flawed.
            What is wrong with the system is not the drugs...it's the judging requirements for the horses. What in the hell is wrong with a little hump in their back and facial expression and tail swishing. What's wrong with a small high five out of a horse enjoying it's job. Not to the hunter judges!! So if the standards were changed, this would be ok. Mares could come in heat and be "interested" and geldings could be sociable and expressive. But I don't make the standards nor the rules. I'm just an amateur who rides the horse in the direction it's going. Even if it's over the cliff.
            This is probably one of the most disturbing things that I've read on this board. I can't believe someone would actually admit to doing something like that. You admit you know it's wrong, yet you do it anyways. It is obvious that you have no respect for your horses. How can you look at yourself in the mirror everyday and feel good about the person you see looking back?
            Last edited by ThatScaryChick; Mar. 27, 2008, 02:25 AM.

            Comment


            • Unfortunately, I guess this ties into the general cultural philosophy of wanting what we want NOW. Immediate gratification. No one has any patience.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                Sorry. I disagree 100%. When *I* showed in the hunters 30 years ago I did my share of winning and I never stuck my horses with anything. They went on their own and I dealt with whatever they decided to dish up in that particular class?
                Well gosh golly gee whiz, pollyanna, guess what? I show today. I don't break the rules, I don't see a need to calm down my OTTB even if he does occasionally do a happy head shake, manage to restrain from using depo, dex, LTD or anything illegal, and I too do my share of winning. Doesn't mean I'm foolish enough to think there isn't a Bridalbridle or two in my classes using the rule to the 100% percent even a minority dancing on the other side of the rule, so what makes you think your era was just so gosh darn special?
                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BridalBridle View Post
                  I use it...a lot and it does work. I use the lunge line. I use Dex. I use Ketophen. I use Methocarbonal. I use anything that will keep my horse OFF the lunge line as much as possible and be competitive.
                  Now I agree it is all wrong. But if I'm going to play I'm going to play on a level field.
                  It's the field that's flawed.
                  What is wrong with the system is not the drugs...it's the judging requirements for the horses. What in the hell is wrong with a little hump in their back and facial expression and tail swishing. What's wrong with a small high five out of a horse enjoying it's job. Not to the hunter judges!! So if the standards were changed, this would be ok. Mares could come in heat and be "interested" and geldings could be sociable and expressive. But I don't make the standards nor the rules. I'm just an amateur who rides the horse in the direction it's going. Even if it's over the cliff.

                  I think it is pretty brave to come out and say this. But it is very illustrative.

                  1. winning is most important ( .... be competitive), even at the horses expense.
                  2. it is not my fault (..... it's the judging requirements for the horses)
                  3. I can't chance the situation (..... So if the standards were changed)
                  4. I'm just a passive bystander (...... I'm just an amateur who rides the horse in the direction it's going. Even if it's over the cliff.)

                  Very illustrative of the society as a whole by the way. Rather eat fast food then cook.
                  Marieke

                  www.EquineFashionandTack.com
                  www.Twitter.com/EquineFashion

                  Comment


                  • I

                    Somewhat completely off topic here but, it's interesting how much the word "I" is used in this thread to imply power and ego.

                    Shouldn't the horse be the most important one here. What is best for him. Perhaps those of you that don't feel "helping" your horses is right should step back and reevaluate what the horse was originated to do in this world. We as people have turned them into show/riding animals. We have asked them to do things out of the ordinary, we ourselves should make sure they are happy and healthy under these conditions.

                    Instead we argue about who is right and who is wrong. Each person should know the animal they have and do what is best (include you vet's opinion). That to me is the bottom line. A battle between right and wrong and who's ego is largest does not solve anything.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SSFLandon View Post
                      Somewhat completely off topic here but, it's interesting how much the word "I" is used in this thread to imply power and ego.

                      Shouldn't the horse be the most important one here. What is best for him. Perhaps those of you that don't feel "helping" your horses is right should step back and reevaluate what the horse was originated to do in this world. We as people have turned them into show/riding animals. We have asked them to do things out of the ordinary, we ourselves should make sure they are happy and healthy under these conditions.

                      Instead we argue about who is right and who is wrong. Each person should know the animal they have and do what is best (include you vet's opinion). That to me is the bottom line. A battle between right and wrong and who's ego is largest does not solve anything.

                      This is the best post that I have read in all these pages.
                      Well said.

                      Comment


                      • *I* completely agree with you
                        Marieke

                        www.EquineFashionandTack.com
                        www.Twitter.com/EquineFashion

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Marieke View Post
                          *I* completely agree with you
                          Thanks and to Slainte also.

                          Comment


                          • at least partly, we differ about what is right for the horse. The horse where I come from (darn I) is a working horse, they are meant to move and do stuff. They are not pets. The stallion that went to Fl, in the weekend before he went, pulled logs out of the woods behind the farm. We couldn't get there with the ATV.

                            Helping the horse is preparing them well for the job intended. That takes time, not drugs. Solving the problem, not masking the symptoms.
                            Marieke

                            www.EquineFashionandTack.com
                            www.Twitter.com/EquineFashion

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              still like to mention that this is officially the longest thread I've ever started :-) If I'd known you had to talk about drugs to get responses I would have done that a long time ago. Mental note: when ACTUALLY starting a naming thread include the Depo, Dex, etc. into title so that people will read the thread....

                              On a side note, this thread didn't go quite the way I had intended. I wasn't looking for the moral take on it. I'm well aware that many people do give their horses a little something before they show and I'm aware that that is not fair/right/in the best interest of the sport/horse/etc. I would also like to point out that there is a C level of showing where this type of behavior is in fact the norm because drug testing does not go on. There are some crazies that walk off the trailers on Friday and some how are packing around on Saturday, there are the oldie goldie lesson horses that haven't taken a sound step in ten years but are still able to take the kiddies around the short stirrup ring. This is the other market for horses that may not be able to make it in the allegedly drug free A circuit arena. No it's not legal still but unless you're testing than people will do it.
                              But I pose to you that is it really so wrong for a horse to compete on a lower circuit, have a light cocktail, and do his job happily? To me the alternative is much more frightening. Example:
                              HorseyA is green, cute but not amazingly cute, pleasant, easy keeper, kind, etc. HorseyA however, is very spooky and is known for bolting from time to time. You say he doesn't need a poke but he needs a career change. But to what? No sane person would get on this horse and gallop across the country side in hopes of jumping solid obstacles, his dressage scores would be closely aligned to the amount of tension that is carried in the rubber bands of his butt and neck, stadium jumping? HA- brightly colored, purposefully scary fences- yeah right? Pleasure- we don't like scary things. HorseyA is happy in his nice quiet ring, pretty, plain fences, where things stay the same. But he's not fancy enough for a pro so of course if he is going to have a job then he must become either an A/A horse or a kids horse. Both of which are notorious divisions for mediocre riders. And which would require HorseyA to not act like an idiot.
                              SO....
                              Do you allow HorseyA to live in comfy barn, leading the life of a show horse knowing that he has to have a cc of ace
                              or
                              do you allow HorseyA to be bought, sold, and perhaps eventually be slaughtered because he doesn't really have a job that he fits into very well?

                              Sigh... two very good sides to this argument. And alas each individual must decide what is right for them and their horse(s). Perhaps it's just a form of artificial selection?
                              "are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn...I can yawn, because I ride better than you, Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn, you, not so much..." George Morris in Camden, SC

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Marieke View Post
                                at least partly, we differ about what is right for the horse. The horse where I come from (darn I) is a working horse, they are meant to move and do stuff. They are not pets. The stallion that went to Fl, in the weekend before he went, pulled logs out of the woods behind the farm. We couldn't get there with the ATV.

                                Helping the horse is preparing them well for the job intended. That takes time, not drugs. Solving the problem, not masking the symptoms.
                                Seeing both sides to this situation is important and again doing what is right for each horse given it's situation is important (and yes correct preparation of any athlete is important). It's the word preparation that causes controversy. In my mind it's seen as correct training, and conditioning. However, at the same time in doing so there are bumps along the way for horses and humans alike. For horses it can be hard ground, muddy ground, a rock they hit, rider error crashing into a jump, etc. This is where a knowledgeable opinion of how to best treat a perhaps sore guy comes in. We as people put them into these situations so we have to help if they are sore or injured. As we know some soreness is gone the next day while some may stay awhile. It's the horse again that will tell us his condition. In no way should an injured animal (beyond a minor bit if stiffness) be pushed until he's recovered. This is where a small dose of an NSAID or herbal similar can help him fee better along that way. "I" believe that ALL of us want the best for our animals but, in different ways. No one on here wants one to suffer in pain. Again the debate is not about us but, them. It's no different then raising children different ways. We all must do what we think in right for our horses and families.

                                That is cool that you use your horses for work. I have often thought about using one of my frisky dogs for sled pulling!! she loves to run so I think she would enjoy it. She's taken someone roller blading before.

                                Getting back on topic, involving intelligent horse people and recognizing the need of the animal is the point to focus on. My problem with so many of the posts is the "I" factor and that to me is not the point.

                                Thanks Again for your input.

                                Comment


                                • DLS - testing absolutely can and does happen at C shows or at any USEF rated show (C, B, A, AA), testing can even happen theoretically to a horse in an unrated division in a rated show. If by "c rated" you mean "local" shows, oh yea, I'd say less dex, more bute and ace. But you might want to edit your post to clarify the C part.
                                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Dirty Little Secret View Post
                                    still like to mention that this is officially the longest thread I've ever started :-) If I'd known you had to talk about drugs to get responses I would have done that a long time ago. Mental note: when ACTUALLY starting a naming thread include the Depo, Dex, etc. into title so that people will read the thread....

                                    On a side note, this thread didn't go quite the way I had intended. I wasn't looking for the moral take on it. I'm well aware that many people do give their horses a little something before they show and I'm aware that that is not fair/right/in the best interest of the sport/horse/etc. I would also like to point out that there is a C level of showing where this type of behavior is in fact the norm because drug testing does not go on. There are some crazies that walk off the trailers on Friday and some how are packing around on Saturday, there are the oldie goldie lesson horses that haven't taken a sound step in ten years but are still able to take the kiddies around the short stirrup ring. This is the other market for horses that may not be able to make it in the allegedly drug free A circuit arena. No it's not legal still but unless you're testing than people will do it.
                                    But I pose to you that is it really so wrong for a horse to compete on a lower circuit, have a light cocktail, and do his job happily? To me the alternative is much more frightening. Example:
                                    HorseyA is green, cute but not amazingly cute, pleasant, easy keeper, kind, etc. HorseyA however, is very spooky and is known for bolting from time to time. You say he doesn't need a poke but he needs a career change. But to what? No sane person would get on this horse and gallop across the country side in hopes of jumping solid obstacles, his dressage scores would be closely aligned to the amount of tension that is carried in the rubber bands of his butt and neck, stadium jumping? HA- brightly colored, purposefully scary fences- yeah right? Pleasure- we don't like scary things. HorseyA is happy in his nice quiet ring, pretty, plain fences, where things stay the same. But he's not fancy enough for a pro so of course if he is going to have a job then he must become either an A/A horse or a kids horse. Both of which are notorious divisions for mediocre riders. And which would require HorseyA to not act like an idiot.
                                    SO....
                                    Do you allow HorseyA to live in comfy barn, leading the life of a show horse knowing that he has to have a cc of ace
                                    or
                                    do you allow HorseyA to be bought, sold, and perhaps eventually be slaughtered because he doesn't really have a job that he fits into very well?

                                    Sigh... two very good sides to this argument. And alas each individual must decide what is right for them and their horse(s). Perhaps it's just a form of artificial selection?
                                    With no offense to this unfortunately is why people should spay and neuter their animals. There are SOOOOOO many horses bred each year. Some are bred well and turnout poor while others just breed for no good reason.

                                    I do not like the idea of slaughter and there are many great school programs and college programs where sound somewhat OK horses are excepted. Those that were just not quite right for the show world for whatever reason. Most horses like children a born a clean slate and we make them into what they become (for the most part) We want hunter we see prospect, we try to train prospect, turns out too fast, oops now what?? Find it a new career or a field, school program, etc.

                                    There are local circuits where I live and yes, Ace is there, everywhere. The question is...if at a show shouldn't all horses be on the same playing field? Openly I will agree that at home for one coming back from an injury, clipping, etc...a TQ is ok if it means a person not getting hurt while doing the right thing but, not at a show. That saying don't operate heavy machinery on the side of your pill bottle is there for a reason. It is not very safe to ride a drugged animal. It's a double edged sored of course but, again at show does not seem fair to the other exhibitors. Openly if advised by my vet I will give Depo to a mare who has painful heat cycles, or bute to one with some minor arthritis acting up but, not always and not forever.

                                    So again, we are back to what "I" want. I want a slow horse, I want a sound horse, I want a happy mare.....

                                    If it limps 360 days of a year and 5 days while on meds not then I don't think it belongs in a show ring. Perhaps some should be humanely destroyed. That again is an owner doing what is right by his animals (and again with a vet's opinion)

                                    Comment


                                    • HorseyA needs to go back to the roundpen with someone who is more interested in doing what's best for HorseyA than they are in winning ribbons.

                                      Yes, there's a suitable career and life out there for HorseyA. The unwillingness to take the time and make the effort to find it for him is as much a symptom of the corrupted horsemanship of the show world as are training crutches and drugs.

                                      The reason the top, top horses cost what they do is that they are the few who belong there, the horses who love cantering outside, diagonal, diagonal, outside or galloping cross country (well, that's becoming a lost art ...) or running a reining pattern without going insane or developing a good piaffe and passage. This is true in any competitive endeavour. The rest of the field are made up of horses with seven, eight, or nine out of the ten "must-have" qualities that make a top horse, added to someone's effort to make the last few things happen artificially--either by "training", crutches, drugs or whatever.

                                      Everyone has to decide for themselves what is acceptable for putting in those last few missing qualities in the almost-there horses. Clearly, there are a lot of people who can live with taking a petunia and forcing it to be a rose. But, when they get completely fed up with that business, there's always the option of dropping out and discovering the genuine fun of taking a HorseyA and finding out what HE wants to do in life, and making it happen. I guess you have to reach a certain age before simply watching flowers bloom as they are is satisfying enough.
                                      "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                                      Spay and neuter. Please.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                                        Everyone has to decide for themselves what is acceptable for putting in those last few missing qualities in the almost-there horses. Clearly, there are a lot of people who can live with taking a petunia and forcing it to be a rose. But, when they get completely fed up with that business, there's always the option of dropping out and discovering the genuine fun of taking a HorseyA and finding out what HE wants to do in life, and making it happen. I guess you have to reach a certain age before simply watching flowers bloom as they are is satisfying enough.
                                        Here, here. Well said.

                                        Barn blindness can lead to some bad decisions.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Dirty Little Secret View Post
                                          still like to mention that this is officially the longest thread I've ever started :-) If I'd known you had to talk about drugs to get responses I would have done that a long time ago. Mental note: when ACTUALLY starting a naming thread include the Depo, Dex, etc. into title so that people will read the thread....

                                          On a side note, this thread didn't go quite the way I had intended. I wasn't looking for the moral take on it. I'm well aware that many people do give their horses a little something before they show and I'm aware that that is not fair/right/in the best interest of the sport/horse/etc. I would also like to point out that there is a C level of showing where this type of behavior is in fact the norm because drug testing does not go on. There are some crazies that walk off the trailers on Friday and some how are packing around on Saturday, there are the oldie goldie lesson horses that haven't taken a sound step in ten years but are still able to take the kiddies around the short stirrup ring. This is the other market for horses that may not be able to make it in the allegedly drug free A circuit arena. No it's not legal still but unless you're testing than people will do it.
                                          But I pose to you that is it really so wrong for a horse to compete on a lower circuit, have a light cocktail, and do his job happily? To me the alternative is much more frightening. Example:
                                          HorseyA is green, cute but not amazingly cute, pleasant, easy keeper, kind, etc. HorseyA however, is very spooky and is known for bolting from time to time. You say he doesn't need a poke but he needs a career change. But to what? No sane person would get on this horse and gallop across the country side in hopes of jumping solid obstacles, his dressage scores would be closely aligned to the amount of tension that is carried in the rubber bands of his butt and neck, stadium jumping? HA- brightly colored, purposefully scary fences- yeah right? Pleasure- we don't like scary things. HorseyA is happy in his nice quiet ring, pretty, plain fences, where things stay the same. But he's not fancy enough for a pro so of course if he is going to have a job then he must become either an A/A horse or a kids horse. Both of which are notorious divisions for mediocre riders. And which would require HorseyA to not act like an idiot.
                                          SO....
                                          Do you allow HorseyA to live in comfy barn, leading the life of a show horse knowing that he has to have a cc of ace
                                          or
                                          do you allow HorseyA to be bought, sold, and perhaps eventually be slaughtered because he doesn't really have a job that he fits into very well?

                                          Sigh... two very good sides to this argument. And alas each individual must decide what is right for them and their horse(s). Perhaps it's just a form of artificial selection?
                                          Gosh, that's so humanitarian! Why didn't I think of that! Clearly the drug rules should be totally revised!

                                          Do what you want, but don't try to justify it as being in the horse's best interest. That is nauseating. You're cheating, you're not saving lives there, Mother Teresa.

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