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ANOTHER UPDATE PAGE 10 Client won't heed trainer's advice re horse purchase...

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  • Original Poster

    I forgot to add, the idea of Upperville was never the client's, it came from the seller. As in, "I'll have you showing this horse at Upperville in June." I was speechless, which for me is quite something.
    \"I ride because the partnership with horses fills my mind with perfections of cadence and rhythmic excitement and intensities of communion.\" Dick Francis


    • #42
      Farther then they first thought???
      To what????
      A LEAD change at the friggen age of SEVEN? Lack of which is a kiss of death in Hunter or Eq???

      Sorry, just snorted my adult beverage on the screen when I read that one.

      Just say Bye Bye if they want that one.
      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


      • Original Poster

        Yes, findeight, I am drinking a glass of wine and taking deep breaths...
        \"I ride because the partnership with horses fills my mind with perfections of cadence and rhythmic excitement and intensities of communion.\" Dick Francis


        • #44
          Oh boy warefox , sorry about my earlier post...

          say bye bye, I know you want the best for this rider but I think you may need to turn your head another way..

          See the horse and give your 2 cents, but I see a problem, whether or not you think this horse is not for her, I think the parents are going in another direction..I could be wrong, but give us an update after you see it.. Good luck!!!
          Let the horse go, get out of its way, it knows what to do...Stop pulling and keep kicking!!!!!!


          • #45
            Warefox you have my deepest sympathy. Would have to go meet this person just to watch them work your client. Hope it's a large glass of wine! 7yr old, gelded late, doesn't know lead changes, back from Florida, couldn't get sold there, hmmmm just makes ya wanna say, "where the hell were these people when I had a horse for sale?"

            Sorry, sounds to me like the best used car sales approach I have heard in a long time. I also am going to say that your training this child, may have meant more to you then to them. Please I don't mean this in a critical way either. Its a shame people don't always feel the same about the years you have put in. People like this like their egos stroked. Mom probably thinks she's found a pot of gold with this horse.

            The more you say no, the more they're going to want him. So go see, say adios. They won't listen,, and maybe its a good thing they stay with the seller. Let her try to make it work. You don't need to be the bad guy in this. You have been anything but!!


            • #46
              I kind of agree with Hopeful Hunter...

              Besides, what's wrong with buying a horse because you fall in love with it? The horse doesn't sound dangerous. As long as you're safe and you're treating the horse well (And you do treat a horse better when you really love it for who it is, not what it can do for you...) then what's the problem? I know I've had my goals change when I get on a new horse. This sport is supposed to be fun, and it sounds like this girl is having a lot of pressure on her. A lot of people say their goals are one thing, but change when they realize something might be more fun...

              And everyone keeps saying it's awful for a child to have a horse like that. I grew up on horses like that, even at a younger age. And the problem wasn't always just being gelded late, because most of the projects I played with in middle school weren't even gelded... I'm glad no one was around to tell me that was unsuitable... it definitely made me into the rider I am now. Sure I'd *love* to be showing consistently... but I'll pick a horse I love over shows anyday...

              oh well...


              • #47
                I've only read through the first page of this, but I just want to comment on the late gelding issue.

                I bought my horse from a local auction house, a 7.5 year old Quarter horse. Pretty little grey, and fell in love with him. Checked his papers quickly for the HYPP N/N sticker, and loaded him on the trailer.

                It wasn't until I was studying the papers a few months later that I realized he hadn't been gelded until he was six at the earliest! I then got someone in with the AQHA to do a little research, and it turns out my baby had a couple dozen babies of his own! And everyone I told was shocked.

                He's such a great boy; he went out with mares and got beat up on, never attempted anything with them (you know what I'm talking about )and has THE most perfect manners. We figure that's 'cause no one wants an unruly, mannerless stallion, so someone took the time to train him right.

                But honestly; no one noticed, and he went out safely with mares. And he'd had six years of being a BREEDING stud. Find out if your guy ever bred, or if he just went out by himself. He might not be such a bad guy, and I wouldn't cross him off my list just because he was gelded a little later than most.


                • #48
                  Hopeful Hunter gave very good advice.


                  • #49
                    though i have only read the first page of this post i understand what you are saying. i do agree with "crosstrainers" totally. i am also a trainer, i would be insulted that someone went out on their own. did they tell you ahead of time?? if they didn't that is really hard to take. if you don't want to lose the customer, go and ride the horse, try to swap it's lead, see if there is any chance. sit down afterwards and explain how long you think, judging on the ride, what it will take to get it ready to show (time and money) if they are willing to do whatever it is then do it. at my barn the owner would not have any of this. if it is your barn, you decide. it is very hard to take this kind of thing however make sure that your commission is worth all of it. i would charge for the trip to see it and the ride. good luck with this. please keep up updated


                    • #50
                      OK, so Upperville is three and a half months away and the seller wants to keep the horse in training for two months but expects you to be responsible for making her promise come true in six weeks. That's a set up and if I were being set up, I wouldn't accept it.

                      I'm not clear whether the girl has Upperville as a goal or not and I'm not clear if she or the mother actually know what her new goals might be or how reasonable they are. It sounds as if they've just fallen in love or been snowballed (I suspect both).

                      If I put myself in your shoes, I would try to get more information about your student's hopes, dreams and expectations first, then set limits and offer your help.

                      If showing at Upperville is an expectation and the seller thinks the horse can do it, why not let her prove it? You could graciously offer to have them keep the horse in training right through the show. Then, if you're right and they're not ready, either the seller's credibility will be damaged or your student will be blamed for the failure. Regardless, your clients will be disappointed in the seller and/or the horse and not in you.

                      You could offer to be there for them after that training period. You could tell them you'll be surprised if this horse turns out to be ready for the show or a good match for your student, but you're willing to keep an open mind...and if it doesn't work, you'll be happy to have them come back to you as their trainer and help them set up a realistic program or (and you hate to say this) even help them sell the horse if they want to at that time or find that they want to return to their original goals.

                      I would think that your "generosity" in letting your student train with the seller for even longer than they want is likely to diffuse any idea that you are simply envious or possessive or bent out of shape because you didn't find the horse yourself. And you will be demonstrating true generosity if you explain with empathy that you hope as much as they do that things will work out beautifully, but if they don't, you'll be there for them if your time permits. Provided, of course, that given how frustrated you are and what you've already been through, you're still interested in retaining them as clients.

                      You can afford to be humble if you're convinced you're right and you remove your ego from the situation. Whatever the case, I would try to keep in mind that if this doesn't work out, it's going to be hardest on the girl, not on the mother, the seller or you.

                      The only other thought that occurs to me is how often buyers fall in love and decide they can trust sellers and don't have to go through a prepurchase, take radiographs, etc. It sounds as if this might be part of the seller's set up, as well, and I would use whatever influence you have to most strongly urge the mother to insist upon a thorough vetting. If they go through with the vetting, the problem of whether or not this horse is suitable may just solve itself, as I have my doubts about the horse's soundness given what sounds like a hard sell.
                      The aids are the legs, the hands, the weight of the rider, the whip, the caress, the voice and the use of extraneous circumstances. ~ General Decarpentry


                      • #51
                        Chiming in here a little late... Go look at the horse. The kid has has green ponies in the past. This situation may not be the best, but it may not be horrible. Teaching lead changes isn't rocket science, and from what you described from the video, the current 'trainer' doesn't know how to teach them.

                        I'd just make sure to tell them what potential and problems you see, and if they want to buy him go ahead get a good vetting. They do need to realise that their goals would be different with a greenie rather than something more made...

                        I've seen kids start off with green/unsuitable horses, but with lessons and even having a good teenager get on it end up with a respectable horse.


                        • #52
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by easyrider:
                          OK, so Upperville is three and a half months away and the seller wants to keep the horse in training for two months but expects you to be responsible for making her promise come true in six weeks. That's a set up and if I were being set up, I wouldn't accept it.

                          <span class="ev_code_PURPLE">My thoughts exactly. The seller promises X with the caveat that the horse must stay in training with her for two months, then sends it to the new trainer, who will get blamed if the horse doesn't meet or exceed expectations.....in six weeks. Not a situation I'd put myself into. </span>
                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                          A life lived by example, done too soon.


                          • #53
                            i grew up with more then my fair share of green horses. 7yr old, gelded late, doesn't know his changes? i dealt with worse, at a lot younger then your student. HOWEVER! if the horse was supposedly in training in Fla with another trainer, and didn't get sold, and still doesn't have his changes, and the breeder is requiring them to stay with her for 60 days, and is promising a kid who's never jumped over 2'6" that they'll be going to Upperville in 3 1/2 months (that's about 115 days, for those keeping track), that all throws up some monster red flags for me. i'd go look at the horse, be open minded, give what i see as pros and cons, and tell the client that if they choose to buy the horse, not to come back until AFTER Upperville. tell them that you wouldn't want to CONFUSE the horse so close to the show. that way, you can't be blamed for how they perform. and if the horse isn't ready, they'll realize that they were snowed.
                            Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch


                            • #54
                              I like green horses for me...I don't like green riders on green horses. So what!

                              The girl and her parents want to buy a horse you don't approve of..that's fine, just figure you lost a student. They have to make their own mistakes and learn about the wide word of horsedom.

                              I probably would suggest keeping everything involved with this at arms length. Don't look at the horse, don't ride it, don't offer your opinions...they don't want your opinion or comments.

                              Figure you gave the girl good basics in the time you trained her and cross your fingers, wish her good luck and don't even think of touching that "tarbaby".
                              "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"


                              • #55
                                What this "trainer seller" is doing is quite dispicable in my Book, Not only are they trying to sell a problem horse to a teenager who deserves a few ribbons after all the green rides, they are trying to milk 2 months board and training fees out of them and on top of that trying to steal your client. I would go see , hold my temper and suggest that the potential buyer , your student go ahead and LEASE the horse with the "Seller Trainer" for 30 days, pay board, pay lessons pay for training, 30 days no more. Yes it will cost them , but if this horse doesn't have a solid 100% change in 30 days, NO Sale , and your suggestion has saved them thousands. JMHO


                                • #56
                                  Since he spent time in florida why don't you ask the breeder for the trainers name in florida so you ask them question in regards to his training there. See if she can give you any names or contacts. My guess is she won't be able to give you any.
                                  I want to be like Barbie because that bitch has everything!


                                  • #57
                                    well, really, it's not the trainer who makes the final decision on which horse to purchase. All the trainer can do, or should do, is offer honest, straightforward advice. Also, are you sure your stated goals for this rider are actually the rider's goals? I ask this, because the trainer I had helping me horse-shop once kept offering horses I thought were totally unsuitable, and she kept telling me the horses I found were totally unsuitable-- we finally realized we weren't looking for the same thing.


                                    • #58
                                      The way I read it, the seller doesn't even claim to be a trainer, just a breeder.

                                      If the breeder still has the horse at age 7, I would expect the breeder is very anxious to get it sold.

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                                      • Original Poster

                                        A quick update.... I e-mailed the owner/breeder/trainer today letting her know I was looking forward to meeting her on Sunday and seeing her ride her horse. I told her I expected to see the horse jump a small line, nothing more that 2'6" or 2'9", and school his changes, because I am concerned about his green-ness with these issues. I also asked her to forward me the name of the trainer the horse was with in Florida, how long he was there, and when he came back. I ended with a cheery "see you this weekend!"

                                        I also cc'd to the mother's e-mail at work. When I got to the barn this afternoon, I found out that mother and daughter had returned to the breeder's farm to ride the horse again today (for another lesson maybe?) so I left a message on their home phone asking if everything had gone OK on this ride? And hopefully this ride got video-taped too.

                                        I will see the horse on Sunday (or maybe not, after my e-mail I wouldn't be surprised if the owner is suddenly not available), I will keep an unprejudiced mind, I will try to school the changes and see what is there, and I will be HONEST and STRAIGHTFORWARD about this animal's chances of fulfilling whatever goals this rider has in mind. And then we'll just see what happens, won't we?

                                        As of right now, I haven't heard back from owner or mother. "As the barn turns......"
                                        \"I ride because the partnership with horses fills my mind with perfections of cadence and rhythmic excitement and intensities of communion.\" Dick Francis


                                        • #60
                                          Just a thought to clarify what some of us do not like in this one....foals do lead changes in the field at...what??? 2 weeks of age?

                                          Horses should not jump under saddle until they have mastered basic flatwork, right? Lead change SHOULD be part of those basics, they are not rocket science. Doesn't have to be great but they have to "get it". The good ones ARE great and do get it from day one.

                                          This horse is still at the breeders at the age of 7-and I bet you he is 8 this year.

                                          This horse bounced around to Florida and back, for sale the whole time and STILL cannot change leads.

                                          These clients are now lessoning with the breeder/seller and will stay there for 2 months (at least) BUT they want their trainer of the past few years to approve of this.

                                          N O T.

                                          Bye Bye.
                                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.