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GM is nothing but a bully.

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    Originally posted by Velvet View Post
    So, now you're justifying it by saying he was yelling to save her life because she was in a dangerous situation and was possibly going to be killed by her horse?

    In an office, whether I want to call someone a name or not, I know that it is not effective and will not help people understand me,

    As my grandfather was fond of saying, "Keep your temper. No one else wants it."
    Yes maybe someday it would save her life.. who knows.

    And I totally respect your thoughts on this.... but I will also respectfully dissagree with the comment that using a word like dumbell will not be effective... Speaking for myself if I wasn't getting an exersise when GM was telling me to do something and called me a dumbell, your darn tootin' I would snap out of it. But thats just me.

    As far as your grandfather; cool saying - however those riders "PAY" for GM teaching. And again respectfully dissagree that it was a "temper".
    Put your energy on what you want to grow!

    Comment


      Originally posted by foursocks View Post
      Calling someone a dumbbell, by the way, is so incredibly mild these days.
      And that makes it all right in your book?

      Boy, has society degraded. I really have no problem with arguing with someone and their point of view. I can agree to disagree. I can even take hits on things I produce at work. But calling someone names? That's just juvenile. He's old enough to know better, and to be a better role model.
      "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

      Comment


        POPCORN HERE, Get your Popcorn...
        And awaaaay we go.

        Man who needs those crazy Cannucks that used to get the winter crazies and take the board over anyway?
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Doctracy View Post
          Here's the link. Sorry, it was a lesson, not a clinic so I guess that makes it ok that the horse was left dead in the arena while the lesson went on.
          Once the horse was dead... would it have come back to life if the other riders stopped the lesson?

          Comment


            Originally posted by Velvet View Post
            And that makes it all right in your book?

            Boy, has society degraded. I really have no problem with arguing with someone and their point of view. I can agree to disagree. I can even take hits on things I produce at work. But calling someone names? That's just juvenile. He's old enough to know better, and to be a better role model.
            I actually think you sound like a very nice person and do wish more people strived to be the kindest person they could be.

            And I thank you for agreeing to dissagree...

            But I will agree with the fact dumbbell is not a big deal and okay in my book coming from GM... he's making his point and if you have seen him in person; he's definately demanding but never yells or freaks out on anyone. And is always quick to praise for the right answer.

            It is his teaching technique that works for him and people pay millions for it.
            Put your energy on what you want to grow!

            Comment


              I haven't read this whole thread but I watched the clinic as it was streaming and chuckled at that comment. It wasn't "barked" in a nasty tone. To me, he seemed aware of the humor of the comment. And, as another poster noted the girl in question had not been paying attention..

              Comment


                Originally posted by Velvet View Post
                And that makes it all right in your book?

                Boy, has society degraded. I really have no problem with arguing with someone and their point of view. I can agree to disagree. I can even take hits on things I produce at work. But calling someone names? That's just juvenile. He's old enough to know better, and to be a better role model.
                Well, my point is that things have changed in popular culture, like it or not, and dumbbell isn't terribly harsh. If someone called you a feckless bounder, would you equate it to something like a-hole, which is essentially what it means? In the last 100 years, calling someone a bounder was a pretty big insult.
                You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil

                Comment


                  Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                  But I will agree with the fact dumbbell is not a big deal and okay in my book coming from GM... he's making his point and if you have seen him in person; he's definately demanding but never yells or freaks out on anyone. And is always quick to praise for the right answer.
                  Sidetrack, but- did anyone else notice GM used the phrase "freak out" a couple of times during the clinic? Somehow it just struck me as funny coming from him.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                    I don't understand this. If someone did something stupid, and was told so, where is the communication issue?
                    There shouldn't be one single person on this thread who hasn't done something stupid on a horse. If your trainer didn't tell you it was stupid, they're not doing their job. If you took offense to being called dumb, for being demonstrably dumb, then you're worried about the wrong part of the incident.
                    The analogies to classroom learning don't make much sense to me either. No matter how hard you yell at someone who doesn't understand a math problem, they're not going to understand it any better. Something that involves a physical effort, you can visually determine if someone isn't trying hard enough, or being sloppy in their execution, and motivate them to physically try harder or be sharper.
                    Yes - we have all done stupid things - and yes we all have the right to call ourselves stupid. That does not mean that other people should call us stupid.

                    The problem is I still fail to understand what calling someone stupid does to promote a better outcome. Does being called stupid help the rider know what to change or how to change it? I don't think so....

                    And, BTW no actually you can't tell by looking at someone whether they are trying - whether its a mental or physical question. There is a great deal that does into being able to change when someone is stuck. In fact, I have had any number of students over the years that had this problem. I call it the "I understand but it may not happen today" syndrome. The thought and desire is there but the ability to get the body to respond is not happening.

                    I am all for motivation - and high standards - and consequences BUT not personal insults which in no way address the specific problem... ie - you have taken the same wrong track 3 times, you have jumped ahead all of the last 5 efforts - coupled with I want you to go all the way to x before you turn, I want you to make no movement at all at the jump - and I think it is perfectly alright to say that you are done for the day if it is not accomplished. That is correcting, teaching and consequences,.l

                    Comment


                      20-30 years ago it was also ok to beat your wife and kids.
                      Good Lordy...where did you grow up? That's frightening.

                      It was never morally okay to beat your family. At one time...l-o-n-g ago it was legally okay in some places and up to a degree.

                      But 20-30 years ago I was 22-12 and it was wrong and illegal then.

                      It was wrong and illegal when my grandparents were young.

                      Not to mention it's totally non-sequitur to the conversation. Comparable to invoking the Bible and Hitler. Just emotional, not factual nor germane.

                      As for saving a life...actually yes, especially more so when jumps start getting big and horses start getting more fit and more up in personality. If the rider cannot spiral down correctly then the rider has either listening issues or riding issues and the more those are corrected, the safer she'll be as she rises in the ranks.

                      Not much different than when teaching your child to drive. When sitting in the passenger seat if they stop listening to you and start doing things incorrectly, you correct them. If they keep doing things wrong and keep ignoring you...you raise the stakes in communication. Even if that means saying, "Dumbell, listen! That's wrong."
                      Because although the odds are against your child dying in a car wreck, the possibility is still there. And it's not uncommon for serious injury or death to occur driving a car or riding a horse.
                      You jump in the saddle,
                      Hold onto the bridle!
                      Jump in the line!
                      ...Belefonte

                      Comment


                        Yeah, I'm so sheltered. Having only gone through Medical school, Grad School, Army Officer Basic AND Air Force Officer Training. Plus, retired as a Major from the Army Artillery. Just about like living in the Amish community all my life.
                        In all my professional career, I've had one upper level resident (not yet graduated himself yet) try to belittle me on a rotation. You know what. He regretted it later when I was higher ranked and we just happened to end up stationed together, and he just happened to need my respect.
                        In my horse world though, I've seen lots of nasty, abusive trainers. I won't give them my time or money. Not for me, my horses or my family members.
                        I think I'm wearing pretty clear eyeglasses, what do you think?
                        Originally posted by foursocks View Post
                        oh, fer the love of.....wow.

                        Yesterday my trainer was yelling at my lesson partner because she would.not.give to her horse with the rein, and the horse was getting more and more tense and angry. After several attempts to get the rider to do what he was telling her to do, which was put in very simple terms, he finally screamed: "Relax, goddammit! You need to f-ing relax!!" At which point we all cracked up, she relaxed and was able to get back in tune with her horse.

                        It's a sport. It's a serious sport for many of us. It can be a deadly or at least a very dangerous sport. If you want to be the best you will come up against people who care about your abilities and how much work you are willing to put into them, not your feelings.

                        Incidentally, life is often very critical, and that is just the way of it. I once saw a fellow student, back in grad school, burst into tears when other students were offering critiques of her paper during class. Given that a huge part of the job involves developing one's ideas, testing them and then putting the results out in public to be critiqued and possibly even refuted- often by extremely harsh peers- well, the consensus was that she either needed to toughen up or find another career. She toughened up and is a rising star in her subfield.

                        If you produce sub-standard work, you need to be able to take criticism. If you are not paying attention, that (in my book) is even worse and you deserve to be called on it.

                        Calling someone a dumbbell, by the way, is so incredibly mild these days. You'd have to be living in an Amish community to be seriously in agony over this, I think. Or a helicopter parent or the spawn of one, and please don't get me started on them.....

                        Comment


                          You know, I dunno if this is the equestrian version of the college draft for the NFL, NBA, etc. The teenagers picked for the GM clinic are the kids who have done well in a public arena (horse shows) and have had the luck to be well-matched to the horses that have brought them up through the ranks. There are many, many top riders today who never came up through the traditional junior ranks.

                          All of that has taken 1) large financial resources 2) the support or will of the parents 3) decent, but not necessarily stellar, talent as they also have access to decent horses (as they should at this stage). There is NO system in place, like the way the NFL is set up, in equestrian sport to ensure these kids get out of the junior ranks and into the GP ring.

                          To say that they are the next wave of U.S. int'l show jumping talent, well, I think a lot of these kids will never even make a stab at being a professional rider, or try for the Team. That takes a singular competitive drive. Being a talented rider doesn't make you a driven competitor, or a good horseperson.

                          And, man, it is true: I watched the DVD from last year, and the kids were so struggling. There are HUGE holes in their riding skills.

                          CBoylen: I don't agree. These are VERY young people (the older I get), and calling someone of that age a dumbbell sheds no light. Kids do 'dumb' things b/c they don't have the life experience to understand consequences and if you asked them, often the 'dumbbell' might say, "I just didn't know what to do [how to respond in that situation]." That is not stupidity, that is confusion.

                          And some kids are more motivated that other. Sometimes I think GM is expressing his disappointment at having to teach a a rider who clearly is not as motivated as he was at their age...

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Velvet View Post
                            So, now you're justifying it by saying he was yelling to save her life because she was in a dangerous situation and was possibly going to be killed by her horse?
                            Where does it say he was yelling?

                            Although in your situation of the cop yelling at the lady with the umbrella in front of her face, perhaps that did save her life if she was about to walk into traffic.


                            Originally posted by justathought View Post
                            The problem is I still fail to understand what calling someone stupid does to promote a better outcome. Does being called stupid help the rider know what to change or how to change it? I don't think so....
                            Apparently it made this rider snap back into action and do the exercise correctly. And he said dumbbell, not stupid. And they ate together and laughed afterwards.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Doctracy View Post
                              Here's the link. Sorry, it was a lesson, not a clinic so I guess that makes it ok that the horse was left dead in the arena while the lesson went on.
                              Take your rose colored glasses off and stop hero worshipping, you might notice how cruel and callus he can be.

                              http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35814
                              I can only speak for myself, but I for one do not worship GM. I do respect him as a horsemen however. Is your opinion based on real personal experience with him, or just what you've read about him?? Just curious...

                              Comment


                                Well this thread could get quite interesting now

                                Wine & cheese time!

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Doctracy View Post
                                  20-30 years ago it was also ok to beat your wife and kids. I would hope we've made progress as a society!
                                  No. It's never been OK to beat your wife and kids.

                                  Bad analogy.
                                  madeline
                                  * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

                                  Comment


                                    In a sense I agree, he is kind of a bully. But if I tell someone something over and over again, unless they're hard of hearing like me, then yeah, it gets annoying. My mom calls me stupid all the time for stupid things that I do. Or stupid questions (sorry, but there ARE stupid questions lol). The meanest thing my trainer has said was "you're a silly goose"LOL. Soooo I may be a tad sheltered there.

                                    I also agree that I do not worship him.. I do kind of thing he's reaching that age where... well you know, old age starts to hinder his teaching and riding.. That's JMO though!

                                    Comment


                                      CBoylen: I don't agree. These are VERY young people (the older I get), and calling someone of that age a dumbbell sheds no light. Kids do 'dumb' things b/c they don't have the life experience to understand consequences and if you asked them, often the 'dumbbell' might say, "I just didn't know what to do [how to respond in that situation]." That is not stupidity, that is confusion.
                                      And some kids are more motivated that other. Sometimes I think GM is expressing his disappointment at having to teach a a rider who clearly is not as motivated as he was at their age...
                                      They're not that young. If they don't understand consequences, or have the experience, then this is the experience by which they learn. If you ignore instruction repeatedly, you get called a dumbbell in front of a large audience; there's a consequence. If you ignore instruction repeatedly you can lose a ride or a job, and that's a worse consequence. Better to learn the lesson now, verbally.
                                      It's not like they're new, they ride and show on a regular basis. Probably a couple of them are just a few years away from being professionals. And if they aren't motivated, then they're taking up space for someone who is, and that is disappointing. If you bother to show up, then make an effort.

                                      Comment


                                        To say that they are the next wave of U.S. int'l show jumping talent, well, I think a lot of these kids will never even make a stab at being a professional rider, or try for the Team. That takes a singular competitive drive. Being a talented rider doesn't make you a driven competitor, or a good horseperson.

                                        And, man, it is true: I watched the DVD from last year, and the kids were so struggling. There are HUGE holes in their riding skills.
                                        Oh most definitely agree. Not saying they're absolutely going anywhere in particular. The students might not all be the caliber to make it pro or top levels. But the teacher certainly is capable of finding the ones that can and helping them get there.

                                        Also agree there are huge holes in the skills and training these days.

                                        Probably why GM's clinics are still so well attended.
                                        You jump in the saddle,
                                        Hold onto the bridle!
                                        Jump in the line!
                                        ...Belefonte

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Doctracy View Post
                                          Here's the link. Sorry, it was a lesson, not a clinic so I guess that makes it ok that the horse was left dead in the arena while the lesson went on.
                                          Take your rose colored glasses off and stop hero worshipping, you might notice how cruel and callus he can be.

                                          http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35814
                                          Oh, please. Ten years ago, yes, GM taught a clinic and in a freak accident, a horse died. Doing an exercise that hundreds of people have done, before and since, with no problems whatsoever.

                                          I understand some people will judge the man by that one very tragic incident. Most will understand that in this sport, accidents happen, sometimes very, very tragic ones with extremely bad consequences. Horses break legs landing from jumps - or in rotational falls when they hit them, perhaps due to rider error. I have personally seen a horse die, coming out of the ring, due to heart failure. It's not pretty and the rider and trainer involved were inconsolable. But they are accidents. Horrible, yes, absolutely. In many cases, due to circumstances which could have been handled differently, in hindsight.

                                          George Morris is a legend in our sport. That doesn't mean he is perfect. He is a trainer, not a god. But his expertise is legendary, and he has a resume that few others can match. Those who choose - CHOOSE - to train with him, do so with the full knowledge of what they are signing up for. They WANT the benefit of his expertise, and understand they will be the better for it.

                                          I think it is very telling that the rider who bore the brunt of the criticism was sitting with GM later and laughing over lunch. I imagine she knew he was only doing what he felt he needed to to get her attention, and wasn't the slightest bit offended by any of his comments. Kind of like using a stick properly on a horse that isn't minding your leg. Good riders who use a stick to properly school a horse to the leg are not abusive, and GM likewise uses a bit of a tongue lashing the way a good rider would use a stick... as a reminder and reinforcement to produce the right result.
                                          **********
                                          We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                          -PaulaEdwina

                                          Comment

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