Liseter Ponies

[Janet]

What does it mean to not be eligible for a prefix? I have two ponies with liseter and farnley grandsires/mares. Does that mean I can't call them Liseter ____ or Farnley _____? If I do will I get in trouble?

I expect you would have difficulty registering them as Welsh Ponies with a Welsh prefix that "belongs" to someone else. But I don't think the USEF will care.

[Limerick]

I expect you would have difficulty registering them as Welsh Ponies with a Welsh prefix that "belongs" to someone else. But I don't think the USEF will care.

I don't think the USEF checks papers. We have a pony that came with a Farnley name, USEF registered, but no papers. I called the Farnley farm and they had no record of him being born. He doesn't show at USEF shows but we won't use the Farnley name regardless.

[Daventry]

I expect you would have difficulty registering them as Welsh Ponies with a Welsh prefix that "belongs" to someone else. But I don't think the USEF will care.

Been there, done that. We sold a Section B Welsh gelding down the U.S. as a hunter pony. A well known, but "questionable" trainer changed his named to Glannant Jackpot. I think the owners still have his Welsh papers but he shows on the USEF circuit as Glannant Jackpot.

As well, our first homebred Welsh pony, Daventry's Breakaway, was sold to Connecticut. The owners registered him with USEF as Kensington's Breakaway - Kensington is their barn name. I've explained to them several times that it's disrespectful and fraud. Hasn't made a bloody difference!

Now all of our foals get a Lifetime USEF registration. But still won't stop a new owner from just getting a new USEF name and number if they really want to. Thankfully, the Welsh papers cannot be changed...but those often seem to get lost in the woodwork too!

[ynl063w]

As well, our first homebred Welsh pony, Daventry's Breakaway, was sold to Connecticut. The owners registered him with USEF as Kensington's Breakaway - Kensington is their barn name. I've explained to them several times that it's disrespectful and fraud. Hasn't made a bloody difference!

I understand that it must be disappointing as a breeder to have the new owners drop your prefix, but I don't see how replacing it with their own barn name can be considered fraud.

[Kryswyn]

Putting your farm name or breeding prefix on a horse (or dog for that matter) that you didn't breed IS fraud because it is understood that a horse (or dog) carries the prefix of the BREEDER.

If the Kensington Farm people had the first clue about breeding, they would know that. The procedure/rule of naming would dictate that the pony they bought from Daventry Equestrian should've been shown under the name Daventry Breakaway at Kensington. (in dogs, we'd say "of Kensington". By dropping Daventry and using their own, they are stealing the work AND reputation that Daventry has worked long and hard to establish.

[ynl063w]

Putting your farm name or breeding prefix on a horse (or dog for that matter) that you didn't breed IS fraud because it is understood that a horse (or dog) carries the prefix of the BREEDER.

If the Kensington Farm people had the first clue about breeding, they would know that. The procedure/rule of naming would dictate that the pony they bought from Daventry Equestrian should've been shown under the name Daventry Breakaway at Kensington. (in dogs, we'd say "of Kensington". By dropping Daventry and using their own, they are stealing the work AND reputation that Daventry has worked long and hard to establish.

Unless the Kensington prefix is registered by someone other than the buyers of said pony, there is no fraud involved in them using that prefix. See previous posts here concerning the use of the GlanNant and Liseter prefixes for examples of what IS considered unethical use of prefixes. If the Kensington prefix is not registered by anyone, it can be used by anyone. There is no rule for naming as far as USEF is concerned, and it doesn't sound as though these buyers are trying to change the name with the Welsh Pony registry (no idea if that is even possible).

As I said, it's unfortunate that this happens and I can only imagine the disappointment and frustration that breeders feel when buyers drop or replace their prefixes, but it is a buyer's prerogative to change the name in any way he chooses (with the exception stated above regarding already registered prefixes - although it doesn't seem that anything is ever done to right that wrong when it happens).

I feel for the breeder here, but I still don't see any indication of fraud in this particular case.

[Tamara in TN]

I understand that it must be disappointing as a breeder to have the new owners drop your prefix, but I don't see how replacing it with their own barn name can be considered fraud.

replacing a horses name with a new one is not fraud.
using an existing prefix as your own is fraud.
It was done a good deal in the "dark days" of the 1980's
any grey 12.3 thing with an apple bottom got the
name Farnley in front of it to help it sell
better.Liseter was also used as was any other "hot"
ring name.

the ding dongs who do this are only doing it for money granted, but some people put a lot of thought into breeding something and consider it insulting to have the names stripped.It is one of the reason I am not interested in breeding hunter ponies in particular anymore.

Tamara

[Somermist]

I understand that it must be disappointing as a breeder to have the new owners drop your prefix, but I don't see how replacing it with their own barn name can be considered fraud.

Because that barn did not breed said animal. Changing the name to something like Nice Horsey is fine. Changing it to RedBarn's Nice Horsey, is not. Red Barn did not breed the animal, it is misleading at best, fraud at worst. Kind of taking credit for something you had nothing to do with.

[ynl063w]

Because that barn did not breed said animal. Changing the name to something like Nice Horsey is fine. Changing it to RedBarn's Nice Horsey, is not. Red Barn did not breed the animal, it is misleading at best, fraud at worst. Kind of taking credit for something you had nothing to do with.

If Red Barn is not registered with any breeding society, then Red Barn can be used in naming a pony or horse by anyone. Choosing a name for an equine, and registering that equine under that name with the USEF, has nothing to do with that animal's breeding. This is the point that many here don't seem to be able to understand. If someone pulled a pony out of a field in the middle of North Dakota, gave it a name with the prefix "Liseter" or "Farnley" or "Daventry", and tried to register it with said name with the Welsh Pony Society, I imagine that person would run into problems. I would think at the very least, that person would be forced to provide proof that the prefix is valid for that particular pony. If that someone did the same, but tried to register said pony with the USEF, that person would seemingly be successful, based on some examples given here in this thread. And that would be unethical (I don't want to use the word fraudulent here as I don't know if that term as it is understood by law applies in this case - it might be though), but it is the reality of the situation. In this particular case, the new owners dropped the breeder's prefix, added their own, and registered the pony with an organization that is not associated with breeding. This is not fraudulent. It IS disrespectful of the breeder, it IS frustrating for the breeder, but it is not fraudulent under the current rules.

Think of it this way: how many Popeye K offspring are out there with the "K" following their names, even though they weren't bred by the breeder of Popeye K? It's wrong, it's misleading, yet it has happened (and probably will continue to happen) countless times. But as long as all the other letters of the alphabet are not associated with any breeding establishment, anyone can ethically put any of those letters after the name of his horse if he so chooses.

Dropping a prefix is not against USEF rules; adding a prefix isn't either. If the new prefix is already taken by someone, using it is wrong in a much different way than using a new prefix that is not already taken.

[Tamara in TN]

It's wrong, it's misleading, yet it has happened (and probably will continue to happen) countless times. But as long as all the other letters of the alphabet are not associated with any breeding establishment, anyone can ethically put any of those letters after the name of his horse if he so chooses.

Dropping a prefix is not against USEF rules; adding a prefix isn't either. If the new prefix is already taken by someone, using it is wrong in a much different way than using a new prefix that is not already taken.

Well.

If the racing world dropped the animals breeding off them and gave the trainers name instead of the horses "given" name for them to run under there would be an uproar heard round the world.

Why? because pedigree predicts performance.In hunters and cutters and race horses and just about everything.

When the purpose breeders turn their backs on the hunters where will their animals come from then?

While it's "tradition" I suppose to re-name an animal after some stupid cartoon character (to kiss the butt of some wealthy woman whose child is still cute in her bows) it's not right.

Tamara

[Somermist]

Well.

If the racing world dropped the animals breeding off them and gave the trainers name instead of the horses "given" name for them to run under there would be an uproar heard round the world.

Why? because pedigree predicts performance.In hunters and cutters and race horses and just about everything.

When the purpose breeders turn their backs on the hunters where will their animals come from then?

While it's "tradition" I suppose to re-name an animal after some stupid cartoon character (to kiss the butt of some wealthy woman whose child is still cute in her bows) it's not right.

Tamara

Thank you. I think those who think it is no big deal are not breeders. You might not be able to stop it, but that does not make it right.

[Cannonball]

Been there, done that. We sold a Section B Welsh gelding down the U.S. as a hunter pony. A well known, but "questionable" trainer changed his named to Glannant Jackpot. I think the owners still have his Welsh papers but he shows on the USEF circuit as Glannant Jackpot.

As well, our first homebred Welsh pony, Daventry's Breakaway, was sold to Connecticut. The owners registered him with USEF as Kensington's Breakaway - Kensington is their barn name. I've explained to them several times that it's disrespectful and fraud. Hasn't made a bloody difference!

Now all of our foals get a Lifetime USEF registration. But still won't stop a new owner from just getting a new USEF name and number if they really want to. Thankfully, the Welsh papers cannot be changed...but those often seem to get lost in the woodwork too!

We bought a young horse from a reputable breeder but didn't like the mouthfull of name he came with. When we registered him with the USEF we dropped the breeders prefix. BUT we listed her as the breeder and included the sire and dam. we've since sold him but if he ends up with great fame everyone will be able to find who bred him.

I understand a breeder wanting their prefix retained for the acknowledgement of their work. I also can understand a farm wanting to add their prefix so their work of training and developing a young horse is acknowledge. But if a prefix is changed or dropped the breeder including sire and dam should be included in the USEF registration.

[BAC]

I have to side with the breeders on this. While it may be legal to change or drop prefixes, I wish more people would just "do the right thing" and leave the names that come with the pony. The name reflects the history behind the breeding of each one of those ponies and their breeders put a lot of time, effort and money into producing them, I think it is a shame when the registered name is lost or not acknowledged. You can always give it a barn name you like and use that for everyday.

[Janet]

It is just as traditional to have an OWNER's prefix or suffix as a BREEDERS prefix or suffix.

Think of all the "Spindletop" horses.

[BAC]

It is just as traditional to have an OWNER's prefix or suffix as a BREEDERS prefix or suffix.

Think of all the "Spindletop" horses.

Yeah, but the owner's prefix was added later, for example when M van Rappoport bought a horse he added the Spindletop to the name and when he sold the horse it was deleted, for example Spindletop Showdown was just shown as Showdown after the sale. But he was not born and registered wtih the name Spindletop Showdown. And the owner's prefix was not relevant to the breeding of the animal, as in ponies.

[Somermist]

Yeah, but the owner's prefix was added later, for example when M van Rappoport bought a horse he added the Spindletop to the name and when he sold the horse it was deleted, for example Spindletop Showdown was just shown as Showdown after the sale. But he was not born and registered wtih the name Spindletop Showdown. And the owner's prefix was not relevant to the breeding of the animal, as in ponies.

[Daventry]

Yes, I agree that fraud, in the legal sense, was a poor choice of words. Unethical is a much better choice and was really the word I was looking for!

I can totally understand purchasing the pony and dropping the prefix altogether and just registering him with USEF as Breakaway. I can even understand changing the name all together. But to remove a prefix in front of the name, that denotes a breeder and breeding program, and then replacing it with your own branding...that I am not kosher with. And like Somermist said, unless you are a breeder, it may be hard to grasp.

As a warmblood breeder for 15+ years and switching over to ponies, we never had to worry about prefixes before. But in the pony world, especially the Welsh world, they are important. Under American Welsh rules, you can only register three ponies without a prefix before they make it mandatory that you chose a prefix and place in the registered name.

I did contact USEF and requested that our name be added as breeder and added the dam and sire name. The sire name was already there, but spelled wrong. At least USEF had the good sense to add that into the computer system for us. All I can hope for is that when the next person buys him, they've checked out the online USEF records and realize who he is and where he came from and continue on with the same records.

The kicker for me is that I dropped his price down significantly because I thought this home would end up promoting him the best on the pony hunter circuit and we wanted to get our first homebred Alvesta Picasso baby out there and showing and get some exposure for us. And I did ask the new owner to please show him under hsis registered name. Sigh!

At least I've learned to get a lifetime USEF number now when they are foals now. Again...doesn't mean the next owner can't go and get a new number, but I think it at least helps as a deterent. Naming them with a cute or good name helps too. I agree with Cannonball, some of the traditional Welsh names are a bit of a mouthful.

[Daventry]

The only other deterent we have - we offer a $250 cash prize each year to the Alvesta Picasso baby who is the most successful out on the show circuit and a $500 cash prize for any foal who wins their breed class at Devon. As well, we have a $5,000 cash prize for any Alvesta Picasso baby who wins their overall division at Pony Finals. Our rules state that they must be shown under their registered name...so this pony is no longer eligible.

[Tamara in TN]

The kicker for me is that I dropped his price down significantly because I thought this home would end up promoting him the best on the pony hunter circuit and we wanted to get our first homebred Alvesta Picasso baby out there and showing and get some exposure for us. And I did ask the new owner to please show him under hsis registered name. Sigh!

I've heard about a half dozen times "oh we'll tell everyone where we got him,we'll totally keep his registered name,we'll show him every where"

wanna know how many people have actually done it?

One.

wanna know who still gets my stock?

One.

the others are just SOL

Tamara

[Daventry]

Ive heard about a half dozen times "oh we'll tell everyone where we got him,we'll totally keep his registered name,we'll show him every where"

wanna know how many people have actually done it?

One.

Duly noted!