How hard is it to train the mid-level dressage horse to be a hunter?

[Halfhalting]

Just curious... we're talking about the horses that are starting collection and very forward in the bridle but nice jumpers. What are the biggest challenges? Relaxation? Quiet? Anybody have this experience?

[netg]

It should be simple if the horse is correctly trained.

If the horse isn't trained to lean on your hands, stretches when allowed, and properly adjusts its speed based your movement, it will just need to get used to a different (more forward) balance in the rider's seat.

Now, if that is a horse who has a lot of knee action, it may simply not be suited for hunters, at least the hack, but may still be able to do other hunters. The adjustability a well trained dressage horse has will make it easier to work with for jumping.

[sptraining]

I have had one in training for about nine months (an 8 yo Hanoverian). The first three months were focused on a forward pace on loose or no contact and teaching him to hold himself. There was a time when he couldn't canter on his own without seat and hand support and almost always trotted the corners.

We started over fences with rails and basic grids. He's not very careful unless the fences are over 3' and he trots over (as in, doesn't jump) anything 2' and under. That's probably been one of the biggest challenge - getting him to actually jump the lower obstacles.

At his first (C Rated) show, we did the 2'9" hunters and he was division Champion out of 10. Granted this horse was MADE to be a hunter and got a lot of extra points for it. We're planning on doing the Pre-Greens this year and move up to the 1st Year Workings the following year. His owner will probably do the AAs with him in about a year or so.

I would say the biggest challenge was just teaching him to go forward on his own and keep a consistent pace without a driving seat or leg. But this horse was made to be a hunter so it's a lot easier for him to hack on a loose rein than be packaged up into a dressage frame. He's a much happier camper doing the hunters than he was as a dressage pony.

[S A McKee]

If the horse constantly goes BTV don't bother with even trying to retrain as a hunter. The horse will never carry itself in a forward pace in a hunter frame.
By the time you get to mid level dressage this is a real possibility. Depends how good or bad the dressage trainer was.

Also as mentioned in another post, the movement may be a problem. Besides moving high they may move short. Too much collected trot can ruin them for a hunter prospect.

It can take a long, long time to fix one of these horses.

[Concetta]

Absolutely!

If the horse constantly goes BTV don't bother with even trying to retrain as a hunter. The horse will never carry itself in a forward pace in a hunter frame.
By the time you get to mid level dressage this is a real possibility. Depends how good or bad the dressage trainer was.

Also as mentioned in another post, the movement may be a problem. Besides moving high they may move short. Too much collected trot can ruin them for a hunter prospect.

It can take a long, long time to fix one of these horses.

I have a former grand prix dressage horse that i converted to my A/O Hunter....he's wonderful...and what's nice IS that he is so broke and well trained on the flat-he's got the perfect foundation. It took some time to allow him to stretch down and out..but he's fantastic...and jumps great! With a little patience it will be well worth your wait!

[cuatx55]

If the horse constantly goes BTV don't bother with even trying to retrain as a hunter. The horse will never carry itself in a forward pace in a hunter frame.
By the time you get to mid level dressage this is a real possibility. Depends how good or bad the dressage trainer was.

BTV can be fixed, its hard--- but it can be fixed. And going BTV is undesirable in dressage, at least in my little corner of the world.

[netg]

BTV can be fixed, its hard--- but it can be fixed. And going BTV is undesirable in dressage, at least in my little corner of the world.

Yep! That's why I said if the horse is correctly trained in my post.

There are a lot of "dressage horses" out there who require too much leg and too much hand... Yuck to a horse like that, regardless of discipline! I wouldn't want a crank and spank dressage horse for dressage, much less hunters!

[woops]

ALot of the horses the barn I go to come straight from Europe and they definetly have a dresage background. I would say they have 2 - 3 level ability.

We just focus on forward off the leg first
Then we play with connection.
Forward is the key and if after a month that doesn't seem to work -- which usually always does than probaly no.

[caradino]

I have had one in training for about nine months (an 8 yo Hanoverian). The first three months were focused on a forward pace on loose or no contact and teaching him to hold himself. There was a time when he couldn't canter on his own without seat and hand support and almost always trotted the corners.

We started over fences with rails and basic grids. He's not very careful unless the fences are over 3' and he trots over (as in, doesn't jump) anything 2' and under. That's probably been one of the biggest challenge - getting him to actually jump the lower obstacles.

At his first (C Rated) show, we did the 2'9" hunters and he was division Champion out of 10. Granted this horse was MADE to be a hunter and got a lot of extra points for it. We're planning on doing the Pre-Greens this year and move up to the 1st Year Workings the following year. His owner will probably do the AAs with him in about a year or so.

I would say the biggest challenge was just teaching him to go forward on his own and keep a consistent pace without a driving seat or leg. But this horse was made to be a hunter so it's a lot easier for him to hack on a loose rein than be packaged up into a dressage frame. He's a much happier camper doing the hunters than he was as a dressage pony.

This was exactly my experience with a friend's horse (17hh suuuuper fancy Hano gelding) that I rode for a bit. She had bought him as a baby to be her dressage prospect, trained him as a dressage horse until he was 6 or 7, and then he decided that dressage was Just No Fun anymore. So she gave him a career change and started riding him in a long & low hunter frame, had me and another jumper rider pop him over a few fences now and then, and sent him away to learn his changes and jump some grids and bigger stuff. He absolutely FLOURISHED as a hunter once he learned to carry himself in a longer frame, and he's got a stunning jump once things start getting over 3'. He was sold to an ammy hunter rider last spring and they are CLEANING UP at the A's.. he wins the hack almost every time out.

[Nickelodian]

I've got a dressage flunkie, was trained up to 3rd level. The first 6 months were all about learning how to canter on his own, without so much support. After that it was way simpler than doing the OTTBs I'm used to. He's my A/O horse now. The only issue I have at this point is that we spent so much time teaching long and low that he's lost a lot of his lift to his trot up front. He came to me a hack winner and now is middle of the pack. Teaching long and low with collection is our next challenge.

[RyuEquestrian]

We had a mare in training that was previously a Dressage horse and had very limited jumping experience (no coursework). We had her in training to prepare her for her inspection at which she was expected to jump an inviting course at 3'6".

We worked on gymnastics to build confidence and on the flat we worked on pace and self carriage.

She was a pleasure to work with and was quite happy going long and low in a steady pace to begin with which helped.

After gymanstics work we began incorporating jumps into her flat work starting with trotting in and cantering out then eventually cantering the lines.

I would say that the hardest part was teaching her to be confident to the fences without being carried to the fences. Gymnastics and consistancy helped tremendously with this.

She continued on to become Keur at her inspection and become High Point Mare :-)

[sptraining]

This was exactly my experience with a friend's horse (17hh suuuuper fancy Hano gelding) that I rode for a bit. She had bought him as a baby to be her dressage prospect, trained him as a dressage horse until he was 6 or 7, and then he decided that dressage was Just No Fun anymore. So she gave him a career change and started riding him in a long & low hunter frame, had me and another jumper rider pop him over a few fences now and then, and sent him away to learn his changes and jump some grids and bigger stuff. He absolutely FLOURISHED as a hunter once he learned to carry himself in a longer frame, and he's got a stunning jump once things start getting over 3'. He was sold to an ammy hunter rider last spring and they are CLEANING UP at the A's.. he wins the hack almost every time out.

Sounds like the same horse! This horse could easily win the hack with steel shoes on. So much fun!

[caradino]

Sounds like the same horse! This horse could easily win the hack with steel shoes on. So much fun!

And it was AMAZING the attitude change that came with the change in riding style! This guy could be a total grump when he was doing dressage work, but float the reins at him and give him a little leg and you can almost hear him sigh with happiness! According to his new mom he is just loving life in hunterland.

[SelleFrancais09]

What does BTV stand for?

[sptraining]

What does BTV stand for?

Behind the vertical.

And Caradino...I think you had this horse's twin! He still gets really grumpy when he has to do his "dressage" flatwork. I usually have to incorporate poles and play things into the flat work otherwise it's just torture!

[doublesstable]

I think it depends on the horse and the training done. Both my current horses have been dressage trained and for me anyway it has been an advantage. however, one I want to do jumpers the other is more of a Eq horse.

I would post a video so people can have more of a say - what I have read here I would agree with some of the thoughts but would dissagree with it being YOUR horses condition.

Again it really depends on your horse and the training done.... and anyone that says it's one way or another without seeing the horse is just guessing.

[mvp]

All good points so far about teaching the horse to carry himself with less contact and less seat.

An old hunter pro friend of mine with a fine dressage foundation also pointed out one more thing: It depends on how much the horse was taught *not* to think too much but simply obey a constant set of aids and small corrections. For the horses who seemed "brainwashed" (her word, not mine), it was harder.

According to my buddy, these horses weren't happy being dressage machines per se, but couldn't figure out how to make good, self-preserving decisions when fences were involved. They were literal-minded and would jump even from unsafe or ugly distances if the rider put them there. And as they did in their dressage careers, they'd just suck it up and not complain. But they didn't seem to quickly change, either.

For this reason, she'd often spend a lot of time trail riding the ex-dressagers who seemed to be a bit brow beaten. She'd take them outside where the world was chaotic and not help them too much. Usually, "the horse inside the dressage machine" would come back. He'd get the ability to make decisions back, and sometimes a little more personality, too.

But I'd be happy to retrain a horse with a correct dressage foundation. So much of good huntering is good flatwork. If you have a horse who has been taught this and made supply and symmetrical in the dressage ring, you have a real advantage, IMO. Even after you teach him to jump (and that's not too hard), you'll have a horse whose flat work "is still there" even on course in the show ring. Those are such a pleasure to ride and show!

[sptraining]

An old hunter pro friend of mine with a fine dressage foundation also pointed out one more thing: It depends on how much the horse was taught *not* to think too much but simply obey a constant set of aids and small corrections. For the horses who seemed "brainwashed" (her word, not mine), it was harder.

According to my buddy, these horses weren't happy being dressage machines per se, but couldn't figure out how to make good, self-preserving decisions when fences were involved. They were literal-minded and would jump even from unsafe or ugly distances if the rider put them there. And as they did in their dressage careers, they'd just suck it up and not complain. But they didn't seem to quickly change, either.

For this reason, she'd often spend a lot of time trail riding the ex-dressagers who seemed to be a bit brow beaten. She'd take them outside where the world was chaotic and not help them too much. Usually, "the horse inside the dressage machine" would come back. He'd get the ability to make decisions back, and sometimes a little more personality, too.

This is a good point. The one that I've worked with has also had to learn to think for himself. He has taken odd spots and does take things fairly literally, but over time (and an amateur owner) he's learning how to make a correct decision to save himself. He's also incredibly athletic so he could get out of poor spots.

He's so happy jumping that he's very willing to work through the things he doesn't know. I can feel that he can get frustrated when left alone, but every day is a bit better. He's horrible on trails so we try to do those once in a while and he's getting better all the time.

I thought it was just him, but maybe he's not alone!

[doublesstable]

All good points so far about teaching the horse to carry himself with less contact and less seat.

An old hunter pro friend of mine with a fine dressage foundation also pointed out one more thing: It depends on how much the horse was taught *not* to think too much but simply obey a constant set of aids and small corrections. For the horses who seemed "brainwashed" (her word, not mine), it was harder.

According to my buddy, these horses weren't happy being dressage machines per se, but couldn't figure out how to make good, self-preserving decisions when fences were involved. They were literal-minded and would jump even from unsafe or ugly distances if the rider put them there. And as they did in their dressage careers, they'd just suck it up and not complain. But they didn't seem to quickly change, either.

For this reason, she'd often spend a lot of time trail riding the ex-dressagers who seemed to be a bit brow beaten. She'd take them outside where the world was chaotic and not help them too much. Usually, "the horse inside the dressage machine" would come back. He'd get the ability to make decisions back, and sometimes a little more personality, too.

But I'd be happy to retrain a horse with a correct dressage foundation. So much of good huntering is good flatwork. If you have a horse who has been taught this and made supply and symmetrical in the dressage ring, you have a real advantage, IMO. Even after you teach him to jump (and that's not too hard), you'll have a horse whose flat work "is still there" even on course in the show ring. Those are such a pleasure to ride and show!

This is a very good post. And "brow beaten" is also good use of terms. ((just sayin))

[mvp]

I did hesitate to speak of the level of obedience I think of dressagers as wanting. I know there is great variety there. I know however I'd describe it, it would seem inaccurate and offensive to some.

But the dressage pros I have taken lessons from really go about training horses and riders differently than did the hunter or jumper or eventing pros I had work with me on the flat. For example, I have *only* spent minutes and minutes and minutes on one 20m circle with a dressager. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the level of feel these guys have and wanted to impart to me. Perhaps we had to do lessons this way. But I think it must be tough for a horse to differentiate this lap from that lap when there are 400 of those in a row.

So I should add that my limited experience and my own preference for "ranch broke" as part of a training program inform my post. You guys should know where my point of view comes from.

And the ones that purportedly suck on the trail? Keeping going outside with the doofus! No animal continues to make bad decisions forever if he's given the opportunity to practice and learn.