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A question about trainers and "ring hopping"........

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  • A question about trainers and "ring hopping"........

    I'm really curious; why does (seemingly) every hunter trainer insist on being at every client's round at every ring at every show? I realize that the trainer would LIKE to see the culmination of your efforts together to improve your horse and yourself, but it always seems to be at the expense of the other competitors. Like mroades' post on how to make a judge angry in two easy steps - what is UP with that? Why does no one insist on the 2 minute rule? And why must a trainer insist on being at the walk/trot ring AND the adult ring AND the equitation ring all at the same time? Is the trainer so convinced that you won't be able to perform correctly unless his/her eyes are trained on you your entire trip? Or does he/she have that little confidence in what he/she has taught you?

    Obviously, this entire mindset is what makes shows run ludicrously late due to "trainer conflicts" (now THERE'S a redundancy for you! ), but no one seems to want to do anything about it. I mean, it would be NICE for the trainer to watch the walk/trot division, but when it holds up the equitation ring, that's a bit much. And why must an adult be under her trainer's scrutiny during each and every round including the U/S? Have these people never heard of "video tape"? I'd like to see these shenanigans being tried at a horse trials or dressage show.

    Any ideas?
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/
  • Original Poster

    #2
    I'm really curious; why does (seemingly) every hunter trainer insist on being at every client's round at every ring at every show? I realize that the trainer would LIKE to see the culmination of your efforts together to improve your horse and yourself, but it always seems to be at the expense of the other competitors. Like mroades' post on how to make a judge angry in two easy steps - what is UP with that? Why does no one insist on the 2 minute rule? And why must a trainer insist on being at the walk/trot ring AND the adult ring AND the equitation ring all at the same time? Is the trainer so convinced that you won't be able to perform correctly unless his/her eyes are trained on you your entire trip? Or does he/she have that little confidence in what he/she has taught you?

    Obviously, this entire mindset is what makes shows run ludicrously late due to "trainer conflicts" (now THERE'S a redundancy for you! ), but no one seems to want to do anything about it. I mean, it would be NICE for the trainer to watch the walk/trot division, but when it holds up the equitation ring, that's a bit much. And why must an adult be under her trainer's scrutiny during each and every round including the U/S? Have these people never heard of "video tape"? I'd like to see these shenanigans being tried at a horse trials or dressage show.

    Any ideas?
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm paying my trainer to watch me, not to watch other clients. I'm a paying customer, therefore I never will go into the ring for a jumping class w/o my trainer there. I think its less the trainer wanting to be there and more the client wanting to get what she payed for. An aside though...if you're showing 3' and above I don't see ANY reason a trainer has to be there for a hack class!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      I survived!
      My adventures as a working rider

      theworkingrider.blogspot.com

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Okay. I see your point. But is it realistic? Not trying to be rude or anything, but if you're with a trainer with let's say, 10 other clients, all showing in different divisions, and the trainer presumably showing some greenies, what are the real chances of this happening without having at least a few conflicts and resultant ring-holds along the way?
        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
        A life lived by example, done too soon.
        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

        Comment


        • #5
          And what if disaster strikes and the rider falls when the trainer isn't there? Do you blame it on the fact that she had no trainer standing by the ring? How is the trainer supposed to know what happend? How can the trainer know what to work on during the next lesson; how can they know that their student is ready to move up? If people go in the ring without trainers that totally defeats the purpose of even having one.
          I know my trainer would be very upset if I went in the ring without him (unless he gave me permission because he was busy and it was a very small, insignificant class that he knew I could do in my sleep) and I would be with a different trainer if my current one told me to go ahead and go do the junior jumpers on my own while he is out in the pony ring with someone else.

          ~BenRidin
          ~BenRidin

          Comment


          • #6
            Like Nickelodian, I am a paying customer so i want to my coach to see everything I do in the ring so we can improve upon it later. It is up to trainers to take a reasonable amount of clients to a show so they arent holding up rings or hire an assisstant trainer who can sit in in place of the coach. But to me, suggesting I should ride without my coach when I am paying my coach to be there doesn't seem like the right answer.

            * * * * * * * * * *
            Life goes on... Things Change (Tim McGraw)
            * * * * * * * * * *

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            • #7
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickelodian:
              .if you're showing 3' and above I don't see ANY reason a trainer has to be there for a hack class!

              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              It's funny.. with my old trainer one show he had to go to a different ring and the childrens hack was my last class of the day. I told him he could go to his other client who needed him more, my horse was a hack winner and I didn't need him there to watch me do something I have done a hundred times before.

              It turns out that in that flat class my horse fell down going around the corner and the EMT had to rush me out of the ring. Thank god my trainer decided not to leave me and snuck back around to the other side of the ring to watch so he could be there to comfort me! I just think it's kinda funny. You should always expect the unexpected, lol.

              ~BenRidin
              ~BenRidin

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenRidin:
                And what if disaster strikes and the rider falls when the trainer isn't there? Do you blame it on the fact that she had no trainer standing by the ring?

                No, I blame it on an accident or a missed distance or the horse slipping. The trainer's presence makes no difference.

                How is the trainer supposed to know what happend? How can the trainer know what to work on during the next lesson; how can they know that their student is ready to move up?

                Well, presumably, the rider can still speak after a fall, so the trainer wouldn't have any trouble finding out what happened. As for what to work on in the next lesson, or how to know when a student is ready to move up, that does NOT require the trainer's presence at EVERY round for EVERY class.

                If people go in the ring without trainers that totally defeats the purpose of even having one.

                Oh, I see. You're saying that you pay your trainer just to watch you, not to teach you at home? Hmmmm...........

                I know my trainer would be very upset if I went in the ring without him (unless he gave me permission because he was busy and it was a very small, insignificant class that he knew I could do in my sleep) and I would be with a different trainer if my current one told me to go ahead and go do the junior jumpers on my own while he is out in the pony ring with someone else.

                So because you have a junior jumper, you're more important than that pony rider? What if the pony rider falls? Does she not deserve someone there to comfort her? Or because you're doing a bigger class that's more important to YOU, you believe you have priority? Okay................

                ~BenRidin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                A life lived by example, done too soon.
                www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                Comment


                • #9
                  One of the most important things seems to be missing here...Yes you are a paying customer, but you are paying for FEEDBACK, which is hard to get if your trainer isn't watching you. A video is great, but that isn't going to do you much good when your next trip is 5 minutes away. A set of eyes on the ground is a good thing no matter how experienced of a rider you are.

                  I do agree if you having been showing a while you should be able to handle a hack.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    [QUOTE]Originally posted by CuteHunter:
                    Like Nickelodian, I am a paying customer so i want to my coach to see everything I do in the ring so we can improve upon it later. It is up to trainers to take a reasonable amount of clients to a show so they arent holding up rings or hire an assisstant trainer who can sit in in place of the coach. But to me, suggesting I should ride without my coach when I am paying my coach to be there doesn't seem like the right answer.

                    QUOTE]


                    Okay, let me get this straight. Your coach is there to teach you and your horse at home, to prep you both at the shows, but in addition, he/she has to still watch every move you make in every class? And is it right to delay the show and inconvenience other competitors (not to mention the judge!) because your second trip is coming up and you need your trainer there to watch, but he/she is tied up at the pony ring for God knows how long, because somebody ELSE'S trainer has a conflict too? And I know "everyone does it", but does that make it right?

                    And where does it end?
                    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                    A life lived by example, done too soon.
                    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butkrustag:
                      One of the most important things seems to be missing here...Yes you are a paying customer, but you are paying for FEEDBACK, which is hard to get if your trainer isn't watching you. A video is great, but that isn't going to do you much good when your next trip is 5 minutes away. A set of eyes on the ground is a good thing no matter how experienced of a rider you are.

                      I do agree if you having been showing a while you should be able to handle a hack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Excellent points, both. And I agree that the feedback is necessary for progression. But on EVERY round and EVERY class? For EVERY student? It just seems an unrealistic expectation.

                      Someone made a suggestion about a trainer limiting the number of clients they take to a show or hiring an assistant trainer to take the place at ringside. But then the issue is raised that "Well, I deserve THE trainer because I'm doing junior jumpers" or "My little Susie needs THE trainer because this is her first show", and then watch the clients fight! Whoooeeeee!
                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Because how is the judge to place the class if she can't see the BNTs whooping it up at the in gate?

                        In my (very limited) experience trainers don't help you ride while you're out there. They watch your ride in order to give you a good analysis of what happened. What you did right, what you can do to improve, and why you placed where you did. Often there's a really small difference between 1st place and a lower ribbon that the rider may not be aware of. Also, how the rider perceives the course and how it looks to an outside observer can be different. So you want feedback from someone who saw your round. When one small bobble can make the difference between a ribbon and nothing, you want that feedback from a trained outside observer.

                        Sometimes trainers will offer a few suggestions while you're out there--especially for the younger kids or beginners. But, for the most par, you can only hear them when you're right next to them at the in gate, so it doesn't really affect your ride that much.

                        Some trainers are bad about holding up the ring, and even with my limited experience you get to know who they are. But most try not to. They don't want to be there all day either.

                        Trainers will try to put their riders in different places in the line up so one will be done long before the other starts. But the best laid plans often go awry. For example, someone could fall off and hold up the ring right before your rider goes.Or their student takes a tumble in the warm up ring right before she's supposed to go in and they'd like her to get a couple good fences in to steady her nerves. Or they schedule a rider to go first in a class and, at the last minute, management decides the ring needs to be dragged again. So even a trainer who tries really hard not to hold up a ring may do so occassionally.

                        My trainer would never hold up a ring in order to watch another advanced rider in something like a hack class. However, for a walk trot class with a little beginner kid or a nervous beginner adult, she does want to be there--those are often the riders who need the most support. As that nervous beginner adult, I like having her watch--if only to know that someone is there to shout out instructions if I get in trouble. But the more advanced riders hack without her there all the time.

                        At many of the shows I've attended, management will state which ring has priority and that helps keep things going. But not all shows do that.

                        Why don't shows enforce the 2 minute rule especially for the trainers that are really flagrant about holding up the ring? I have no idea. Maybe it's because they think no one else does so they don't want to be the first one to piss off the BNT. Or maybe because they don't want to call it for one trainer whose held up the ring while his student takes yet another warm up fence that could have been taken earlier and then not be able to hold the ring for the trainer who has been trying really hard to keep things moving but had a student just take a tumble in the warm up. Or maybe they just have a spineless wimp running the in gate.

                        Some shows really work hard to keep things moving. I went to groom for a friend's daughter at the Maryland Horse and Pony show recently. I mostly only saw the pony ring (where my friend's daughter was riding) and the only time the ring was empty was when they were resetting the jumps or dragging it. The gate crew was really firm about getting one rider lined up before the other left the ring. They also had a dotted line on course to keep riders from having gargantuan courtesy circles. Even with that, the show day was long only because I think 8 billion ponies where there that day!



                        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As aside from everything else being said, my parents pay too much money to not have the trainer there when I am riding. My trainer is always there for any over fences classes but she knows that I can handle any flat class or flat phase because it is basically the same every time(ie. walk, trot, canter, or any variation of the three) so if she really needs to be somewhere else she can. She does, however, try to position us on the jumping order to help things run more smoothly, like having us go first if she needs to go to another ring soon or having us go last if she needs to go right now.

                          ×Val×
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/falcon3888
                          \"Luck is when preparation meets oportunity.\"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I was fortunate enough to be at a barn where I was the only senior rider. My coach did not end up holding up classes for me. I have to say, I wanted her to atleast watch my over fences rounds because I was always in a division. After my first round, she would comment on what I needed to fix for my second round.

                            I am not saying it is right to hold up classes, especially because it inconveniences so many people. My coach would have her student wait to do their rounds if she was with another client, it was never a problem because the classes were big. We had many students showing in the children's hunter/ juniors so most of her students were in the same class anyway.

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            Amy
                            Owned by:
                            Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs) JC OTTTB (Isella x Annie Somebody)
                            Pippen (Frodo) ATA Anglo Trakehner (Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear)
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            ~Amy~ TrakehNERD clique
                            *Bugs 5/86-3/10 OTTB Mare* RIP lovely Lady, I miss you
                            *Frodo '03 Anglo Trakehner Gelding*
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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thank you. Your reply has made the most sense so far. And I LOVED the comment about BNT'S at the in gate. TOO TRUE!
                              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                              A life lived by example, done too soon.
                              www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I guess thats where you have to try to work with paddock masters to work it out. Yes it doesn't always, but I feel like other competitors understand the plight..to a point. Now if a trainer is training ponys in one ring and has A/As in another ring, that trainer CERTAINLY shouldn't wait to do both at the end, but every rider desereves equal attention.

                                When BenRidin says she wouldn't go into the ring b/c her trainer is at the pony ring, she's not saying she's more important than the pony rider, she's saying she's not going to go to AFTER he's done with the pony rider. So hopefully, The pony rider went early, so trainer can go back to jumper ring, watch the jumper round w/o holding anything up. Now it doesn't always work this way, but usually it somehow works itself out. Riders move up or down with ease (and the help of a good paddock).

                                I think something that IS missed sometimes is good communication from the trainer to the paddock. I was riding in a local show earlier this year, and my trainer had a couple of poeple in the Beg. Rider classes outside. The beg riders had been signed up to go first, so we planned on doing the A/A later. Well the paddock kept moving the beg down on the list, and it eventually ended up holdign up the A/A ring. So we all try to work it out...and sometimes it just doesn't!

                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                I survived!
                                My adventures as a working rider

                                theworkingrider.blogspot.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Exactly, paying big bucks for feed back and WHOO WHOO WHOOP, disaster factor irrelavent, but I do also vent my frusterations at my trainer after what is IMHO a "not so pretty performance" she tries to convince me not to be disgusted w/ myself. I get a head ache just thinking about standing at the gate with my trainer.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think you guys are WAY too dependent on your trainers! Showing horses is not brain surgery. It's a SPORT. You're supposed to be doing it for FUN. With that in mind, I guess that if I had a BNT and was paying big bucks to have them watch, I would not appreciate being blown off. BUT being there is the TRAINER's responsibility. Planning and time management are their job.

                                    Big shows have become an exercise in management kissing up to the trainers at the expense of the judges, the other exhibitors and the (God forbid that we should care)spectators.

                                    If the trainers knew in advance that rings would run on schedule, and that holds would not be tolerated unless someone was having an arterial bleeding problem in the ring, they would learn to organize their people and be where they needed to be to stroke the appropriate egos and hold the necessary hands.

                                    Name another legitimate sport where the trainers control the timetable of the competition at the expense of officials, spectators and other exhibitors. Maybe this is why horse shows are perceived as a sport for dressed up dilettantes.

                                    In the old days, before trainers took over the world, you checked in at the gate, waited your turn, and went in when called. If you weren't there, you dropped to the bottom of the list. The ring was never empty. If you weren't there at the end, you didn't go. Period. Just like other real sports.

                                    Trainers, count your blessings with the 2 minute rule. In ski racing you have 30 seconds from when you're called to be in the starting gate. If you miss it, you are DQ'd. No recourse. Coach not there? Do you want to race or not? I believe pro golfers are DQ'd for missing a tee time. No slack there. Race horses are scratched by the stewards for being late to the paddock. Planes take off whether you're on them or not.

                                    Exhibitors and trainers just need to become more self-disciplined and more responsible for themselves.

                                    That would make shows much nicer for those of us who are "privateers."

                                    madeline
                                    madeline
                                    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      When you pay your trainer for the horse show, they had darn well better be there to watch every round you do. It may take up time for the trainer to be at several different rings and slow down the progress of the show, the trainers move as quickly as possible between the rings. Most also let the clients know where they will be and to be patient. They are taking you to a show to show your weaknesses and your strengths. They can't do that if you go in by yourself, video tapes are great for after the show, but they can't tell you as you go around the turn to move up or slow down. Shows unfortunately are a long procedure.

                                      Flying Horse Feathers
                                      Flying Horse Feathers

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                                      • #20
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
                                        Name another legitimate sport where the trainers control the timetable of the competition at the expense of officials, spectators and other exhibitors.
                                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Just off the top of my head, football and basketball have plenty of time outs called by coaches (and by players to go consult with coaches). Why else would the final 2 minutes last longer than the entire rest of the game? Baseball coaches call time to go talk to the pitcher--or to go kick dirt on the umpire!

                                        I'm not sure what happens in other judged-performance sports since I only see them at the top level. But I doubt gymnasts or figure skaters regularly go out there without their coaches watching.

                                        In all seriousness, I don't think trainers should be allowed to hold up the ring to the extent some do. But the question of "why do you need your trainer watching" is different from "what's the best way to keep the rings moving." It's a bit unfair to label all those who prefer to have their trainers watch their rounds as overly dependent.



                                        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

                                        [This message was edited by dogchushu on Sep. 28, 2003 at 01:32 PM.]

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