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  • unwritten rules

    Anyone know where the "rule" came from that says you have to buy a horse from the person you lesson with? If I feel confident enough to buy a horse on my own, will take full responsibility for it if things don't work out, continue to board and show with the trainer I've been with for years, why is it so horrible if I go out and find the horse on my own? I understand about the trainer knowing me and having the eye to find the right horse. I understand and respect that selling horses is a way for trainers to make money. But, do I have to always abide by this "rule" that holds me and my budget hostage?!!! Any thoughts on this?

  • #2
    Depends...do you keep your horse at home or the trainers barn?if you keep it at home and haul in you should not have any restrictions, but may want to have your trainer "seal of approval" of course there will be a fee involved, but if all they do is look at it and give their opinion, it should be less than a full commission.On the other hand if you board with them, their barn their rules...

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    • #3
      ^^ Yeah I think that's true. If they own the barn (or least from someone else), it's probably fair that they have some control over what people are bringing in seeing that they will have to work with it most likely.

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      • #4
        If your trainer doesn't like your horse, you'll be looking for a new trainer quickly...

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        • #5
          For those who don't read for comprehension, she already stated she would continue to board with her trainer.

          Sorry being snarky, something about these trainer-threads always have that effect on me. But seriously.

          OP, only you know your trainer. Is he/she the type to get kvetchy if you bring in a horse of your own choosing, or not?? If not, then no, go by a horse you like without shelling out commissions. If yes, then proceed at your own risk.
          COTH's official mini-donk enabler

          "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

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          • #6
            You trust your trainer enough to pay for lessons with her (or him), so why wouldn't you trust that person for their opinion on a horse? And not only trust them, but also seek out their opinion on the horse as a way of hedging your bet at least a little bit? And I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm genuinely interested to know why you wouldn't want your trainer's help.

            I've been buying and selling horses for a long time and it's a very rare circumstance where I'll find and buy a horse without the input of at least one of "my people." I want the opinion of my dressage trainer, my vet, and my bodyworker every time I get the chance. I don't train with anyone regularly, so I don't deal with the issue of commission, but I'm not sure that would deter me from getting help. I definitely want the person I train with to not only like the horse I have, but also get along with that horse's type. Otherwise, as someone else mentioned, you'll end up finding a new trainer after acquiring the horse.

            I think when you invest the time and money to follow someone's training program it only makes sense to use them to help you find a horse to continue following that program. I have seen people buy horses outside of a training program and ultimately not work out more times than I can count. And for just about every reason in the book......horse and rider aren't a good fit, horse isn't one that "works" in the trainer's program (for conditioning reasons, personality-type--hot/slow/other--reasons, lameness reasons, etc.), horse isn't appropriate for level rider wants to get to, and a million other reasons. The bottom line is that the average buyer needs the help of their trainer to get an objective perspective of their riding level and fit for any given horse. With that being said, I'm assuming you're not talking about a majorly BNT or majorly expensive horse, both of which can skew the "normal" proceedings.

            If you're an experienced rider and buyer, I don't think it makes much of a difference where you get your horse. But from a trainer's perspective I can certainly understand why there would be hurt feelings if you don't choose to ask for their help.
            __________________________________
            Flying F Sport Horses
            Horses in the NW

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            • #7
              Sorry, guess I was stating my opinion based on my experience in this situation...I've been buying my own horses, and selling them as well, on my own, for over 25 years. But I keep mine at home. I have asked for opinions on horses from trainers and if I buy the horse I pay them a fee, because I value their advice, we discuss the pros and cons, but ultimately, the decision is mine on whether to proceed...
              Typically the income needed to generate a stable with a trainer is thru buying and selling horses, and the money made.But I agree with PNWJumper, that other issues can arise about suitability, training differences, horse/trainer personality conflicts...they are all part of the puzzle.And selling one on your own is no different. I sold one thru a contact of my own, and trainer had been trying to sell it for a year...when I sold it, I paid trainer a fee, as a gesture of good faith, and because I did not pay her the full commission...bye,bye,baby!
              I don't mind paying for services, but do get tired of being billed for services not rendered because of the "unwritten rule".
              Last edited by Equsrider; Nov. 8, 2010, 12:36 AM. Reason: added name

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              • #8
                "unwritten rules" and all else aside . . . if you expect this person to work with the horse, and especially to ride the horse, then YOU will benefit from their input. If for no other reason that you don't bring back a type they already know they don't get along with.

                We all have types of horses we get along and other not so much. Trainers aren't any different. I've inherited a few horses in my riding or training string over time that I absolutely could not stand - bad canter was really hard on my back, so much of a leg ride I had nothing left for the other horses, bat shit crazy, anything with a french accent, etc. Could be for whatever reason.

                I originally became a trainer because I could not afford horses of my own so I figured I'd ride everyone else's. Now, I will not return to that profession full-time until I am in a financial position where I can afford to be selective about the horses I am forced to deal with.
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                Comment


                • #9
                  For me it's mainly about trusting my trainer to tell me things that I'm not experienced enough to recognize on my own. Since a horse is a big purchase, it reassures me to know that my trainer helped pick out this horse and has faith in me working well with the horse. Also, with most of the boarders at the barn I board at, we've all gotten our horses through our trainers' connections instead of looking with someone we don't know, so that is an added plus.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Good info from all. If this helps...I'm looking at quality horses from reputable trainers. All have shared show records, DVD's of horses competing, all have offered to talk to my trainer. I have offered to pay my trainer for her time to look at videos, etc. too cost prohibitive to send trainer out to see the horses, so kind of have to do all this through video. I have been out to ride each horse and have videos of that. SO MUCH CHEAPER to buy direct though! It is amazing how much price goes up when this trainer and that trainer get inolved! Chosen horse will be vetted with all bloodwork, x-rays, clinical report shared with my vet. I'll pay for that too. Whatever horse we chose, it will be one any trainer would be happy to have in her "program". That's what I'm saying...I'm the one paying all the expenses for the horse. If I can find a less expensive way to get the horse and keep it with my existing trainer and show it and pay all boarding, showing, training fees anyway, why is it so uncomfortable for trainer to accept I want to save some money somewhere, somehow, and buy the horse myself?!!! I have purchased and leased numerous horses so far and feel I can do this at this point in my life. Why is the horse business so different from any other type of business out there?! I want to do what is morally right, if you understand, and support my trainer because I do like her and trust her, etc., but why does it feel I don't have any rights and I am the one footing the bills?! Know what I mean?!

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                    • #11
                      Last client that found a horse on her own paid too much for a horse with more arthritic changes than the vet and I were comfortable with, and has a really nasty buck. This, for a timid rider. Because she always wanted a horse that color. Are ya kidding me??? I told her after my first ride on him (Post-purchase, of course) that I never would have bought him, if I were her. That being said, we've got him pretty sound these days, dealt with the bucking and the attitude problem he came with. But. Is he still really a 'suitable' horse for her? Not really. He'll 'do' but that's about it. Now, I didn't have any sales horses myself that would have worked, but would have advised her to wait, or at least look at a few others to see if there wasn't something more suitable out there, for a better price. But, she took it on herself, is putting more time, $$ and effort than she might have needed to with another horse, between maintenance and training, and when a horse came along a few months later than would have been great for her, I snapped him up as a lesson horse. Her loss, my gain.

                      I guess what I'm trying to say, is I have no problem with experienced riders doing all the legwork in finding a horse. But there comes a point where you have to have someone else take a look and potentially offer a reality check. I buy a horse, and you can be sure that the trainer I ride for, the vet, an experienced friend, or a combination thereof, has been asked their opinion. And I tend to run with their opinions. And I never regret getting the input. They know me, how I ride and what I like, and what I'm willing to deal with. And have to qualms about telling me when I'm seeing things that aren't there, or if they're seeing something I'm not. Which is invaluable.
                      Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
                      www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        MrsLipstick

                        I understand completely...Because of the fees upon fees added to the horses price, it limits the quality of horse I can afford to buy. If I do it myself even with a consultation fee to my trainer and save several thousands of dollars, I can afford to buy a better quality horse, and/or spend that saved money on training and show fees, which go to my trainer.And unfortunately, the horse business is not like a business of any other type...that's just the way it is...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So, basically, you want to buy a horse using your trainers connections but you don't want to pay your trainers commission fees? Is that the gist of it? Oh, and these reputable trainers, don't be too quick to think that they won't rip you off for a sale! They'll see somebody coming without a trainer that they know, knows their stuff a mile away and will try everything in their bag of tricks to make that sale....don't kid yourself! A good, knowledgeable person that is helping you (and yes you may be paying!) can save you a heartload of heartache in the future...just do a search for some of the horror stories about sales gone wrong!
                          Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Equsrider View Post
                            And unfortunately, the horse business is not like a business of any other type...that's just the way it is...
                            Well... only if you submit with your feet and wallet.

                            This is a question of the kind of business relationship you want with your hired expert and also the kind of responsibility you want.

                            It is a great idea to enlist your pro's help. If his/her services or presence makes the purchase too expensive, then have a conversation about that. After all, you and trainer benefit if you can put, say, the full $10K in to the horse worth that much and not $7K into an animal meriting that price and the other $3K into pros making a short-term profit.

                            But this is a business relationship and transaction and *anything* can be negotiated until one party says Uncle. If I ran into an important brick wall with a trainer, I'd be thinking about sending my money elsewhere. But I don't walk into the joint effort to buy me a horse that my trainer and I can both improve with the expectation that we'll meet some impasse.

                            Don't worry about unwritten rule floating around out there in the land of rumors and purportedly standard practice. Talk to your pro in person about the details of how you guys will work together on this particular purchase.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am a trainer, and I PREFER that anyone riding with me at least allow me to ASSIST in the pruchase of a horse. Had a student, a pretty novice rider, that began riding with me in her 40's. She had never ridden previosuly She went out and found an ex-schoolie and I went and "OK"d the purchase, He was what she needed. She had a lot of aspirations to jump etc but honestly wasan't willing or able with her life to put in the amount of time to really progress past the schoolie. Earlier this year she said she wanted to get a new horse that was more capable. I ahd a long talk with ehr and told her that no matter what she bought she was going to ahve to step up to the plate and ride more often that once or twice a month. I found her a few that were really great for her, but she managed to have some reason she didn't want them (usually having to do with "looks"). She found a horse and asked me to go with her to look at it. I "sort of" knew the horse, and for his age and capabilities, felt he was over priced. We went and looked. I rode him and DID NOT like him at all for her (really for anyone!). She rode and could barely ride him. So I told her I felt he wasn't the right one. She was looking at another one I ahd brought to the barn for her when she told me she had leased the otehr one for a month at his current barn. ANyways, to make a long story short, she ended up buying him, and moving her old horse to the barn. No hard feelings, if that was what she wanted/needed to do no problem. I told her when she bought the other one, she was welcome to bring him here, but she did not. THis all transpired in early summer. I jsut heard last week that the horse is back up for sale. Not surprising as I am sure she never really could ride that horse, he just wasn't what she needed at this time. I hate it for her, but I think if she had listened to me she would still be riding a horse that suited her. That is the problem with someone going out and buying withut listening. But some people are capable of it.
                              www.shawneeacres.net

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by dags View Post
                                "unwritten rules" and all else aside . . . if you expect this person to work with the horse, and especially to ride the horse, then YOU will benefit from their input. If for no other reason that you don't bring back a type they already know they don't get along with.

                                We all have types of horses we get along and other not so much. Trainers aren't any different. I've inherited a few horses in my riding or training string over time that I absolutely could not stand - bad canter was really hard on my back, so much of a leg ride I had nothing left for the other horses, bat shit crazy, anything with a french accent, etc. Could be for whatever reason.

                                (snip.)
                                This is a very common view, and I believe those points are *sometimes* true ....but not always.

                                There are some trainers who have a gift for matching riders and horses. This is not a universal quality by ANY stretch of the imagination.

                                Just as some trainers can ride well, but perhaps not teach as effectively, (or vice versa) there are plenty of trainers who are good instructors, but not particularly good at finding horses for clients.

                                And often, to be honest, it is because they tend to buy horses that THEY like, rather than horses that will suit the client best. I have seen SO MANY instances of pros that, say, like a hotter horse ... turn down the steady quiet type, even though the client is a rather timid adult who WANTS a push ride.

                                The end result tends to be a lot of pro rides for the trainer, who enjoys the horse as well as getting paid for the extra "training" ... and a client who doesn't progress anywhere near as quickly because they are over (or under) mounted on a horse that isn't really what would suit them best.

                                The trainer I ride with does a good job for me with respect to lessons, etc. Her barn provides fantastic care.

                                I would NEVER use her to find me a horse.

                                Frankly I think I have a better eye, at least for the sort of horse that I like (and that suits me.) I don't normally have her ride or show my horse unless it is done as a treat for her - to give her something really nice to show in a class that would be good exposure for her, for example. My trainer would tell you that my horse is among the nicest in her barn, even though I frequently spend less than half of what other clients in the barn have spent.

                                Luckily my pro is also secure enough to accept the reality of the situation, and is not resentful in any way. She is thrilled to have my nice horses in the barn and to teach a client who pays on time, takes a lot of lessons, shows frequently and puts a bunch of primary color ribbons on her banner each time. She may not be the best at horse hunting, but she is smart enough to be businesslike about it.
                                **********
                                We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                -PaulaEdwina

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by mrslipstick View Post
                                  Good info from all. If this helps...I'm looking at quality horses from reputable trainers. All have shared show records, DVD's of horses competing, all have offered to talk to my trainer. I have offered to pay my trainer for her time to look at videos, etc. too cost prohibitive to send trainer out to see the horses, so kind of have to do all this through video. I have been out to ride each horse and have videos of that. SO MUCH CHEAPER to buy direct though! It is amazing how much price goes up when this trainer and that trainer get inolved! Chosen horse will be vetted with all bloodwork, x-rays, clinical report shared with my vet. I'll pay for that too. Whatever horse we chose, it will be one any trainer would be happy to have in her "program". That's what I'm saying...I'm the one paying all the expenses for the horse. If I can find a less expensive way to get the horse and keep it with my existing trainer and show it and pay all boarding, showing, training fees anyway, why is it so uncomfortable for trainer to accept I want to save some money somewhere, somehow, and buy the horse myself?!!! I have purchased and leased numerous horses so far and feel I can do this at this point in my life. Why is the horse business so different from any other type of business out there?! I want to do what is morally right, if you understand, and support my trainer because I do like her and trust her, etc., but why does it feel I don't have any rights and I am the one footing the bills?! Know what I mean?!
                                  In my opinion you ARE doing everything right.

                                  This is exactly how I handle purchases as well, and frankly it has always worked out fine.

                                  There is no moral imperative to relinquish any or all decision making authority just because you want to board or take lessons in a certain barn. Although plenty of trainers (and COTH posters, LOL) would like you to think there is!

                                  Especially in this economy, most trainers will be happy to have a knowledgeable client purchase a horse - particularly since you have invited input via the videos - that they will then use to take lessons, perhaps show, etc. Smart trainers generally realize that most adults have a fixed budget for horse expenses. Money saved on an unnecessary commission will not only allow the owner to buy a nicer horse, but will be spent on lessons, shows, the matching blankets that make the trainer's set up look nice, etc. They get it all in the end!
                                  **********
                                  We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                  -PaulaEdwina

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    My DD's best rides were those that I found myself. The one I purchased through a previous trainer was not the right animal at that point in time.

                                    When I came across the DD's current horse, I did give our trainer an opportunity to see him in person and provide input. He is a fabulous young horse and she liked him at the time I made the purchase, however, she does not like him anymore and that can make things a little prickly. The horse is lovely, just not her "type". Sooooooo, sometimes you can do it the right way and it still ends up not being the perfect situation.....

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Not sure what I'd do if I was using a trainer (aka. training horse), but if I were looking for a horse I would probably go through someone other than my current coach. I wouldn't go it alone for fear of paying too much and would definitely vet check prior to purchase.

                                      The reason I wouldn't use my coach is that even though he's amazing at training me, I feel like he sometimes overestimates both my and the potential animal's capability. He is much better at looking for a horse that can do 1.20 in a couple years than one that can do 1.20 now (or with a few months). He's amazing at making investments and profits, but doesn't have as good of an eye at finding matches.

                                      I'd feel safer to go to some of the BNTers in my area and have them help me find a perfect match. Even though they won't know me quite as well, they've been doing this kind of thing for a while.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        If I was a trainer and I had clients I would be upset with this because I would be able to tell my clients what they are getting into BEFORE they put the money in. If they simply asked my opinion and I saw something that I knew would not pay off in the long run, they wouldn't buy the animal. That is the difference between the professional eye and any other rider. Also, the trainer should know what the client needs and they should have many more resources to find the best animal in the shortest amount of time.

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