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Yet Another Amateur Rule Question

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    Yet Another Amateur Rule Question

    I know, I know, I've emailed the USEF office and am waiting for a reply but thought I'd throw this out there for opinions.

    19 y.o., so an adult, attends a college and rides on the NCAA team. Gets job feeding and cleaning stalls at school barn. All horses are schools horses, donated for use in the program. There is no "training" going on. No one pays for "lessons", there are "practices".

    Soooo - is she to be considered a pro because she is required to ride the school's horses? I'm thinking that the letter of the law is yes, she is. I'll see what USEF says, just interested in opinions.

    #2
    Originally posted by Spotted Pony View Post
    I know, I know, I've emailed the USEF office and am waiting for a reply but thought I'd throw this out there for opinions.

    19 y.o., so an adult, attends a college and rides on the NCAA team. Gets job feeding and cleaning stalls at school barn. All horses are schools horses, donated for use in the program. There is no "training" going on. No one pays for "lessons", there are "practices".

    Soooo - is she to be considered a pro because she is required to ride the school's horses? I'm thinking that the letter of the law is yes, she is. I'll see what USEF says, just interested in opinions.
    Short answer: No. You shouldn't be considered a pro.
    "My shopping list is getting long but I will add the marshmallows right below the napalm." -Weighaton

    Comment


      #3
      I would think yes, actually. If one is paid to work in a barn, one is a pro if they're riding that barn's horses. The USEF does not differentiate between riding, training, and "practices" in this regard.
      ---
      They're small hearts.

      Comment


        #4
        I agree with Trixie.

        I think if you put a leg over any horse you don't own or lease at the same barn where you work, you're no longer an amateur by USEF rules.

        Comment


          #5
          to play devil's advocate here, I wonder if *technically* since this girl is a student and therefore paying tuition to attend said school and the practice is a result of her being a student rider at that institution ("paying" for her lessons, in essence), if that would somehow negate the fact that she is being paid for her work in the barn. I rode in college, and our student workers were on the federal work study program. It seems unfair to me that being an IHSA rider and on work study would endanger your amateur status... but that doesn't mean anything to the USEF, ha! I'd be interested to know the final answer!
          Me: In a long-winded explanation of who GM is and why he is Important to the Sport
          Mr EmJ: So what you're saying is GM is so Important he could get Chik-Fil-A on Sunday?

          Comment


            #6
            This is what the official USEF rules are regarding pro status. Everything listed below makes you a pro and not an amateur.
            I think letter a here at the top covers alot of it. If you get paid to school the barn's horses or it's part of your job, your a pro status.


            a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing, training, schooling or
            conducting clinics or seminars.
            Rides, drives or shows, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or
            a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for
            boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. (A family member of a trainer may not
            absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a
            horse owned by a client of the trainer).
            g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows any horse, for which activity
            another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/her family controls
            will receive remuneration for the activity. (A family member of a trainer may not absolve
            themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse
            owned by a client of the trainer).
            h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR1306.2d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a
            paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the
            purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a
            member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she
            or a member of his/her family controls.
            i. Advertising professional services such as training or giving lessons by way of
            business cards, print ads, or internet.
            j. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.
            k. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse
            Trials.

            2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
            qualified:
            a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.
            b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate,
            course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona
            fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or
            breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.
            c. Accepting reimbursement for any expenses directly related to the horse (i.e.
            farrier/vet bills, entries) however, does not include travel, hotel, room and board or
            equipment.
            d. Conducting clinics or seminars for a non-profit organization without remuneration.
            (Reimbursement for actual expenses related to the clinic or seminar is not
            remuneration.) BOD 1/17/10 Effective 12/1/10
            e. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in
            halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than
            $300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note:
            accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered
            remuneration.) Prize money won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class
            (other than equitation or showmanship) is not considered remuneration.
            f. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or
            breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who
            is otherwise qualified.
            g. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her
            respective, accredited college program, and who has never held professional status,
            can accept reimbursement for expenses without profit.

            Comment


              #7
              Did OP specify if the girl gets paid at this job? If she isn't getting paid to do it then she is not a pro.

              Is she possibly doing an internship?

              Comment


                #8
                I think she is a professional according to the letter of the law.

                The relevant passage in the rule is actually c. If you remove all the "or" statements, it boils down to:
                c. Accepts remuneration for employment...and...rides...horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer ...owns...said horses.
                The rider in question accepts money from her employer and rides horses owned by her employer.

                I believe the rule is there to prevent someone from saying that they pay that person to be the groom or the bookkeeper and they just happen to ride and show the horses for free because they are such a nice person.

                I will be curious to hear what the USEF says!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Zevida View Post
                  I think she is a professional according to the letter of the law.

                  The relevant passage in the rule is actually c. If you remove all the "or" statements, it boils down to:
                  c. Accepts remuneration for employment...and...rides...horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer ...owns...said horses.
                  The rider in question accepts money from her employer and rides horses owned by her employer.

                  I believe the rule is there to prevent someone from saying that they pay that person to be the groom or the bookkeeper and they just happen to ride and show the horses for free because they are such a nice person.

                  I will be curious to hear what the USEF says!
                  I would think that if logic reigns and other students ride without paying for it as well, as part of the team, it would not count against her - especially now that IHSA is associated with USEF. It shows no special treatment for her work as a groom/stall mucker.

                  However, this is USEF.... does logic reign?
                  If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                  -meupatdoes

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by netg View Post
                    I would think that if logic reigns and other students ride without paying for it as well, as part of the team, it would not count against her - especially now that IHSA is associated with USEF. It shows no special treatment for her work as a groom/stall mucker.

                    However, this is USEF.... does logic reign?
                    It doesn't matter if other people pay to ride or not. It matters that she is paid and rides horses owned by her employer.

                    Might not be fair, but by the letter of the law I also believe she would be a pro.
                    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Yes, I was in this same situation when I was younger. If you are on the clock getting paid and you get on a horse that is not yours, you are considered a professional.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Keep reading that "RIDES" paragraph, and it becomes clear that it is riding in connection with a family member or trainer receiving remuneration.

                        I'm going to disagree with most here and say that a low level grooming job in a college barn is not going to affect amateur status. I don't see anywhere that the OP says she rides as part of the job.

                        As a matter of fact, I would bet that there are probably fees associated with being able to participate in the program. Working off the fees is fine, as long as part of the work isn't riding/training, etc.
                        Inner Bay Equestrian
                        www.USSHBA.org
                        KERx

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by M. O'Connor View Post
                          Keep reading that "RIDES" paragraph, and it becomes clear that it is riding in connection with a family member or trainer receiving remuneration.

                          I'm going to disagree with most here and say that a low level grooming job in a college barn is not going to affect amateur status. I don't see anywhere that the OP says she rides as part of the job.

                          As a matter of fact, I would bet that there are probably fees associated with being able to participate in the program. Working off the fees is fine, as long as part of the work isn't riding/training, etc.
                          OP/or friend of OP, whatever...."Gets job feeding and cleaning stalls at school barn." In this job, she is also "required to ride the school's horses." She is being paid to ride a horse that isn't hers...in a round about way.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by sar2008 View Post
                            OP/or friend of OP, whatever...."Gets job feeding and cleaning stalls at school barn." In this job, she is also "required to ride the school's horses." She is being paid to ride a horse that isn't hers...in a round about way.
                            I'm interpreting it as she is required to ride the school's horses because she is on the team and when she is doing team practice, not as part of her job.
                            "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sar2008 View Post
                              OP/or friend of OP, whatever...."Gets job feeding and cleaning stalls at school barn." In this job, she is also "required to ride the school's horses." She is being paid to ride a horse that isn't hers...in a round about way.
                              I don't believe it matters if she is "required" to ride or not. I think it only matters that she DOES ride horses owned by her employer.
                              Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                              Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by M. O'Connor View Post
                                Keep reading that "RIDES" paragraph, and it becomes clear that it is riding in connection with a family member or trainer receiving remuneration.

                                I'm going to disagree with most here and say that a low level grooming job in a college barn is not going to affect amateur status. I don't see anywhere that the OP says she rides as part of the job.

                                As a matter of fact, I would bet that there are probably fees associated with being able to participate in the program. Working off the fees is fine, as long as part of the work isn't riding/training, etc.
                                How do you figure?

                                c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary,
                                bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows,
                                trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when
                                his/her employer
                                or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a
                                member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
                                Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  She needs to check with USEF.

                                  This is one of the cases where "the letter of the rule" and "common sense" conflict, and it requires a judgement call from the USEF office.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now). Spy is gone. April 15, 1982 to Jan 10, 2019.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    The USEF says:

                                    c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary,
                                    bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows,
                                    trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when
                                    his/her employer
                                    or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a
                                    member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.


                                    If she is working for the barn for money....which who works a job and not get paid. It wouldn't be a "JOB" if she didnt get paid....but working for this barn mucking stalls or doing their books and then goes out and ride one of the horses in the barn owned by her employer, this makes her a PRO status. Read the above rule closely. It doesnt say she has to get paid to ride the horse, it just says if she is an employee of the person who's horse she is riding and her employer trains, boards or owns this horse.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by EmJ628 View Post
                                      It seems unfair to me that being an IHSA rider and on work study would endanger your amateur status... but that doesn't mean anything to the USEF, ha! I'd be interested to know the final answer!
                                      Originally posted by netg View Post
                                      I would think that if logic reigns and other students ride without paying for it as well, as part of the team, it would not count against her - especially now that IHSA is associated with USEF.
                                      Just want to point out that the situation in question is NCAA, not IHSA. And, interestingly, the USEF and NCAA have quite different criteria to define "pro" and "amateur". NCAA seems a little more in line with the spirit of the USEF intentions/level of ability (as reflected in prize monies won can't exceed costs).

                                      Honestly, if I was this student I wouldn't worry about it until Dec 1st of my senior year. I'd lose the working student position (get a job elsewhere if I needed the money, or if its a resume thing I'd do it as an unpaid internship), and then 6 short months after graduation I'm back to clear ammy status. In the mean time, if I was showing without the team, I'd just have to pick classes wisely. I could be very wrong, but isn't the NCAA stuff all at at least 2'9", up to 3'6"? I would wager that any rider doing this at the NCAA level (if they have a suitable horse at home) could *safely* and enjoyably compete at the lower levels of the pros at USEF shows.

                                      But... I have never been an NCAA rider, nor do I often hit the AAs, so perhaps I am very misguided in my beliefs.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                                        I'm interpreting it as she is required to ride the school's horses because she is on the team and when she is doing team practice, not as part of her job.
                                        That was my interpretation as well. She's not riding the horses on her work time, she's riding them on team time, and by the team rules MUST ride those horses. At the job, she doesn't ride, she mucks. If they go by the most strict interpretation, it would mean she's a pro by USEF rules, but that means no student on a college team could work for any barn that owns the horses the team uses. If this is a common enough situation, with the increasing number of IHSA and NCAA teams, the USEF might have to revist the rule and consider it in light of that situation.
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