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Point Two Air Vest

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  • Point Two Air Vest

    Would the hunter jumper people wear these? It seems like a wonderful safety idea and may have prevented the injuries that killed a riding friend this week (brain stem injury sustained in a fall). The eventers seem to using these vests but hunter/jumper riders seem to me to be less inclined to embrace safety vests. If some people started using them do you think we would adjust to the "look" and more people would start using them?

  • #2
    These vests are meant to be worn over a traditional crash vest - so I'm guessing the first step is getting people to wear those!
    Proud member of the EDRF

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Hummm...now there's an interesting detail. I assumed they were worn over the shirt or the jacket but if it is over a crash vest then yes we would be faced with implementing two habits.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kementari View Post
        These vests are meant to be worn over a traditional crash vest - so I'm guessing the first step is getting people to wear those!
        They are not actually "designed" to be worn over anything but clothes seeing as they started out as motorcycle vests for street bike racers and then for regular motorcycle enthusiasts. The reason the eventers wear them over a vest is because USEA does not consider the air vests "vests" as in the "vests" required to be worn on xc. Therefore if an eventer wants to use the air vest that great but they must wear them over their regular vest to be within the rules. The air vest people actually hope their vests can someday be used in place of regular vests after more exposure. The USEA's concern is, if the rider doesn't part from the horse (rotational fall) or if the vest fails to inflate the person would basically be vestless and therefore not within the rules.

        But to the OPs question: I was seriously looking at these for daily schooling and if I get a young horse I will be wearing one. I think they are invaluable for potential prevention of neck injuries without the bulk. My concern with showing in one would be since I would wear it under my coat (to make it invisible) would be if I had a minor fall, not only would I be replacing a $30 cartridge but what would it do to my $300 show coat Would it tear the heck out of the top of it?? I'm sure it would pop the buttons, but I'm thinking it would take out all the seams too. Obviously if it saved my life it would be worth it, but I've had more than a few falls where I practically land on my feet.

        But yes, in all practicality, I see owning one in the next two years when I buy my next youngster.

        Comment


        • #5
          There are some very good threads in the eventing forum about the merits of these vests. Some positive and some not. If you are considering one, it would make sense to explore both of the major brands:

          Point Two
          Hit Air

          The pricing is substantially different and as I understand it so is the sizing and fit

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm thinking the biggest draw they would have to people in the h/j industry is that they DON'T have to be worn over a traditional vest. The air vests are slim, light, and out of the way yet offer incomparable protection in a fall to anything else on the market.

            Comment


            • #7
              Because the system can fail (not inflate), it needs to be paired with a system that cannot (a standard body protector).

              From Point Two's website:
              The Point Two air jackets are currently not BETA approved. They have been designed as a top up protection system to wear along side a BETA or European standard approved body protector.
              From Hit Air's website:
              Recommended for use over body protector.
              Proud member of the EDRF

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kementari View Post
                Because the system can fail (not inflate), it needs to be paired with a system that cannot (a standard body protector).

                From Point Two's website:


                From Hit Air's website:
                Well yes, they recommend you use one with a regular vest because of liability and because British, US, and FEI eventing rules require so, but since regular vests are not used in h/j you are better off with a air vest alone than no vest at all. I would be saddened to know people are turning away from this significant advancement in safety because they think they only work over a traditional vest... and we know the h/j world will not be teaming with the traditional vests unless a rule change is made.

                I work for a company that sells the vest. I've had it on. I've heard first hand testimonials from those in accidents. And I'm telling you, you DON'T have to wear it with a traditional vest for it to be effective at its job.

                In fact, we were just discussing a couple of weeks ago how much we wished a coworker would have been in an air vest INSTEAD of regular vest which tore open when he hit the ground and did nothing to prevent all but three ribs from breaking and both lungs being punctured. Of course we don't know how it would have been different and it would have been best if he was wearing both, but there is pretty good certainty that the torn vest did him little good.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by flyracing View Post
                  I'm thinking the biggest draw they would have to people in the h/j industry is that they DON'T have to be worn over a traditional vest. The air vests are slim, light, and out of the way yet offer incomparable protection in a fall to anything else on the market.
                  They look pretty bulky to me. I see someone I know, I think "when did she gain weight?", and then realize she is wearing an air vest.
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by flyracing View Post
                    ..and we know the h/j world will not be teaming with the traditional vests unless a rule change is made.
                    The rule change was already made
                    GR801.4. Any exhibitor may wear protective headgear (ASTM/SEI) and/or a protective safety
                    vest,
                    specifically designed for use in equestrian sport in any division or class without penalty
                    from the judge.
                    The Federation recommends that the vest meet or surpass the current
                    ASTM standard or be certified by the Safety Equipment Institute.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by flyracing View Post
                      Well yes, they recommend you use one with a regular vest because of liability and because British, US, and FEI eventing rules require so, but since regular vests are not used in h/j you are better off with a air vest alone than no vest at all. I would be saddened to know people are turning away from this significant advancement in safety because they think they only work over a traditional vest... and we know the h/j world will not be teaming with the traditional vests unless a rule change is made.
                      Everyone is of course welcome to do as they would like. I was simply pointing out the fallacy in saying that they weren't "designed" to be worn over a body protector, when the manufacturer themselves says precisely the opposite.

                      Personally, I think it's pretty silly to use a safety product in a way that does not provide adequate safety, especially just for the sake of fashion. But that's probably why I'm an eventer.

                      I'd suggest that anyone thinking of buying an air vest do a search on the eventing forum, though, as there has been a great deal of very enlightening discussion on their pros and cons, including in some areas that you might not consider at first. FWIW, though, I would think them potentially more useful in h/j riding, as you are less likely to have a rotational fall and not be separated from your horse.
                      Proud member of the EDRF

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        The rule change was already made
                        I was referring to a rule change requiring vests at all times when going over fence. My point was that I don't think we will see mass numbers of traditional vests unless they are required. But of course that is just my opinion from experience with the h/j industry and I'd be fine if they all prove me wrong!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kementari View Post
                          Everyone is of course welcome to do as they would like. I was simply pointing out the fallacy in saying that they weren't "designed" to be worn over a body protector, when the manufacturer themselves says precisely the opposite.

                          Personally, I think it's pretty silly to use a safety product in a way that does not provide adequate safety, especially just for the sake of fashion. But that's probably why I'm an eventer.

                          I'd suggest that anyone thinking of buying an air vest do a search on the eventing forum, though, as there has been a great deal of very enlightening discussion on their pros and cons, including in some areas that you might not consider at first. FWIW, though, I would think them potentially more useful in h/j riding, as you are less likely to have a rotational fall and not be separated from your horse.
                          I don't mean to encourage any one from not doing what is recommended or what is safest! What I mean is it is unlikely the hunter jumper people will go from no vest to two vests and a more reasonable goal is create something that doesn't upset the "fashion police" as they are called while still increasing safety.

                          Sad, yes! But without a rule change requiring vests I just don't see the change happening on its own no matter how many people on a BB say the traditional vests are safest.

                          Oh and yes it is true, the original air vests were made to be worn without other vests under them. I knew of the air vests before they were marketed at the equestrian community and they most definitely never said they were meant to go over another vest. That is what I meant. That the air vest in its original design wasn't made to go over a vest. Only the equestrian vest is encouraging people to use over another vest as I think otherwise they would lose sales from people thinking they couldn't work as well over the other vests. They are instead trying to making wearing two vests the norm, which is great.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm doing a really bad job at making my point. Can I have a do-over? You guys all have really great and valid points which I agree with!

                            My real point is I think it is unrealistic to think that it will become common place for traditional vests plus air vests therefore to make an actual change I can think of two options:
                            1) Make a rule change requiring safety vests
                            2) Make available safety equipment that participants will actually buy and wear and try to break the mold against safety improvements.

                            My thinking was that the vests might be a positive step forward towards breaking the mold, BUT if the only thinking is that they can only be worn with bulky traditional vests, then their chance of catching on is even worse off. So therefore any improvement should be praised even if it is not the absolute best possible safety set up available.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Flyracing, I think you are doing a bit of disservice by stating information you perceive as fact when it might not well be. There are those on the eventing forum that are very knowledgeable on this subject. You say you want to wear it under your jacket when you show? the Website says "under loose fitting clothing) This is from the Point 2 Website.

                              The Point Two Air Jacket - Independent testing carried out by Transport Research Laboratory

                              .. when used with a BETA level 3 body protector, improves protection to the spine by up to 69%.
                              .. provides approximately 45% more protection for the lower spine than a BETA level 3 body protector alone.
                              .. with or without BETA level 3 body protector reduced the risk of rib fractures and underlying organ damage, by as much as 20%.

                              A) Impact to back simulating fall from 0.75m onto rigid fall surface
                              B) Impact to chest simulating fall from 1.4m onto rigid flat surface

                              FAQ( More from Point Two Website)

                              Q. Is the jacket BETA approved?
                              The Point Two air jackets are currently not BETA approved. They have been designed as a top up protection system to wear along side a BETA or European standard approved body protector.

                              The Point Two air jacket offers additional protection, but we recommend it to be worn with traditional protective riding wear such as the EM13158 body protector.


                              there is also a vest designed to wear w/ motorcycles - one shouldn't get the equestrian designed vest/recommendations confused w/ the vest designed/recommendations for motorcycles.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Great info gottagrey!

                                Anyone have suggestions on how to encourage those in the in the hunter jumper industry to increase the use of safety equipment?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Where is the DATA?

                                  And not the lab data or testamonials...

                                  While you can't double blind that study, to truly prove the efficacy of the vest start with the premise that most injuries happen outside competition...

                                  I would propose recruiting a local club or several clubs.
                                  Give half the vest to wear during practice, etc..
                                  other half gets "standard" torso protector.

                                  Give yourself 3 seasons, a simple way for the subjects to report injuries to the torso (most likely area),
                                  THEN
                                  you would have data to show good/bad/same as standard torso protector.

                                  So while not in the same category as EXO, good results would put another option for torso protection out there. And competiton is always good!

                                  REgards,
                                  Medical Mike
                                  equestrian medical researcher
                                  www.equicision.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    ....wear it over your coat?

                                    The things weigh something like 2 lbs - I HATE any type of extra clothing while riding and I don't even notice mine. I really like it, actually. It's comfortable, non-constricting, and while it hangs on you LOOSELY (which is apparently what at least one person considers "bulky"... okay?) it is not bulky, per se. Whereas a normal body protector is quite bulky and quite cumbersome.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by flyracing View Post
                                      Great info gottagrey!

                                      Anyone have suggestions on how to encourage those in the in the hunter jumper industry to increase the use of safety equipment?
                                      Oh Flyracing you might have a tough time on your hands getting the H/J world to even think about wearing protective vests... Geez I remember the brouhaha over making Jr. riders wear ASTM/SEI helmets and the even larger brouhaha when the rule was changed to every rider...

                                      Of note, many BNR in the eventing world are quite keen on wearing the air vests whenever they school at home, not just at competitions. Interestingly enough a gal around here was schooling cross country, had her Air Vest on, bad crash and she's quite thankful she had the air vest on as she felt that she would have suffered internal injuries had it not been for the Air Vest...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by flyracing View Post
                                        Anyone have suggestions on how to encourage those in the in the hunter jumper industry to increase the use of safety equipment?
                                        I would think the first step would be to get some real statistics on the benefits (like the ones on approved helmets).

                                        Without that, all you have are anecdotes and personal opinions.
                                        Janet

                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                        Comment

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