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Shamateur part 2

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  • Shamateur part 2

    Some of you may remember my recent thread about Juniors and Amateurs teaching.

    Semi-resolved:

    Junior and I have talked about it, don't worry there were no harsh words between us. She does fully understand the rules now and is contemplating if she will go pro or stop teaching and go amateur. Glad we talked about it.

    Amateur is still teaching lessons, Trainer will be back from vacation next week. I haven't done or said anything about this really. But there's plenty of evidence that she has advertised as a trainer and I could probably prove she was paid. Whatever, it's hopefully short term.

    But...

    There's a total of 5 official "Assistant Trainers" at the barn. I have recently discovered that TWO of these Ast. Trainers own and compete horses in Amateur divisions at USEF A shows. They advertise their training services through the barn emails, even has the barn listed as employer on facebook. Also see facebook updates about them showing in Amateur and equitation divisions. Their horses are boarded at a separate barn, so I guess they think no one will notice?

    I'm not sure that I could really go through with turning them in, but what exactly is the process? I tried looking on the usef site and couldn't find it. There's an upcoming show at the facility where these girls teach, will be interesting to watch these "trainers" go show in the amateur divisions if they attend.

  • #2
    Email USEF. There is a process; you have to pay a fee and if you win the protest, the fee is refunded. If you lose, it's forfeit. I had a similar situation with an ammy but after watching her show at one show in the 2'6" novice adults and barely get around, I decided her pony training and teaching really wasn't threatening and decided not to go forward.

    However, this was 3 years ago; things may have changed since then.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

      Any idea how much the fee is?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shamateur View Post
        The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

        Any idea how much the fee is?
        If he's "green" and showing the pre or baby greens as I recall that's allowed.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by HRF Second Chance View Post
          If he's "green" and showing the pre or baby greens as I recall that's allowed.
          Yes, I realize that. More power to her if she wants to show in those divisions. However, she has been showing in specifically Amateur restricted divisions.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shamateur View Post
            The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

            Any idea how much the fee is?
            See chapter 6 of the USEF rules.

            Especially GR603
            GR603.1.d. accompanied by a deposit of $200 if made by a Federation member or the parent of
            a junior exhibitor member or $300 if made by a non-member (if check, payable to the
            competition or to the Federation); said deposit will be refunded in the event the protest
            is upheld,
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • #7
              You could try taking a screen shot of the facebook page and a screen shot of her amateur status on the USEF search result, attaching them to an "oh, btw did you see...?" email, and seeing what USEF does.

              I'm sure they would rather get $200 to have someone do this work for them, but maybe if you present them with screen shots and easy links they can actually put the math together themselves.

              I can't imagine if somebody sent in the link with the advertising plus a screen shot of their listed ammy class results that USEF would just be like, "Oh we can't do anything unless somebody somewhere sends us $200." But it is USEF after all...
              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                You could try taking a screen shot of the facebook page and a screen shot of her amateur status on the USEF search result, attaching them to an "oh, btw did you see...?" email, and seeing what USEF does.

                I'm sure they would rather get $200 to have someone do this work for them, but maybe if you present them with screen shots and easy links they can actually put the math together themselves.

                I can't imagine if somebody sent in the link with the advertising plus a screen shot of their listed ammy class results that USEF would just be like, "Oh we can't do anything unless somebody somewhere sends us $200." But it is USEF after all...
                I agree. I probably would not pay the fee unless I was really fired up about this (especially since it is likely $200 per reported person, so it could add up pretty quickly given how many "amateurs" seem to be flaunting the rules here...). I would, however, send the proof to USEF and let them know about it. If they don't do anything about it just because you didn't send the fee, well, that will be disappointing. And it would make me wonder why we even bother to have a governing body at all...to whom we pay fees...to govern just this sort of thing...

                Comment


                • #9
                  The reason for the fee is, let's face it, our sport is not always known for sportsmanship and a lot of riders are catty, resentful and jealous. The fee is to keep Sally from reporting Suzie because Suzie beat her in the AO classic and Sally is mad about it. People will theoretically only report true rule breakers because they know they will get the money back if the protest is upheld. Can you imagine if we could all just report each other just because? Ugh, the drama!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Save any emails you may have gotten promoting their instruction at Barn X. I don't know how to do it but if you can do a screen capture of the FB site advertising lessons etc, do it. (Saving the name of the page doesn't matter as soon as she changes it.) This update confirms my suspiscion that your barn is riddled with abuse of rules. Sorry to say it but it's true. It doesn't mean poor horsemanship but it does mean poor sportsmanship and questionable character.
                    F O.B
                    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thanatos View Post
                      The reason for the fee is, let's face it, our sport is not always known for sportsmanship and a lot of riders are catty, resentful and jealous. The fee is to keep Sally from reporting Suzie because Suzie beat her in the AO classic and Sally is mad about it. People will theoretically only report true rule breakers because they know they will get the money back if the protest is upheld. Can you imagine if we could all just report each other just because? Ugh, the drama!!!
                      Yeah, I agree to some extent, and I'm sure it also costs them some money to pursue claims...but I'd still give it a shot first without paying the fee.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Alright, good idea. Can't hurt to send an email I suppose. I will forward them an email from head Trainer with all the assistant trainers' names, phone numbers, and email addresses. The email says contact them directly to schedule lessons. I'd say that qualifies as advertising. Will let you all know if I get a response.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The RULES are the RULES no matter if they threaten someone's business or not. Good rider - bad rider, good teacher - bad teacher, if you are receiving something in exchange you are not an amatuer. Interpret the words anyway you want - you know if you have to work that hard to fit into the catagory Play by the rules, think the rules are incorrect - work to change them, but don't ignore the RULES.
                          http://STA551.com
                          845-363-1875

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Who is the barn manager/owner? I would maybe take a copy of the USEF Amateur Rule and a copy of the "amateur trainers" facebook page(s) where is says they train, emails where it says they train and have a heart to heart w/ Barn Manager and/or owner - or head trainer. I would also suggest that you check the USEF website (searches) for the Shamateur's membership info as that will show their membership status.

                            As far as schooling/inhouse shows go, really USEF has no authority over those shows so there's not much you can do.

                            It's also my understanding that in order to file a complaint against the amateur trainers you have might have also have had to compete against them..

                            You could also send collect all the information - their USEF membership status (showing they compete as amateurs), facebook/emails, and if you could look up any show records which shows they competed in Ammy classes at USEF competitions and send to the USEF membership department (look to see who the best contact would be on the website) w/o sending any money - and just enclose a note.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gottagrey View Post
                              It's also my understanding that in order to file a complaint against the amateur trainers you have might have also have had to compete against them.
                              Not true.
                              Any rider, driver, handler, vaulter, longeur, exhibitor, owner, agent, trainer or the parent
                              of a junior exhibitor, or any Life, Senior, or Junior member present at the competition may
                              file a protest...
                              ANY USEF member present at the show where the violation occured can file a protest.
                              Janet

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                The barn manager is Head Trainer. I feel quite confident that she's aware there are rules being broken here, she just doesn't care.

                                When I said there was a show at the facility where they teach soon- it is a USEF "A" show. So USEF does have authority there. Although, I'm not sure if they will be showing there.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Gottagrey's post brings to mind a question.

                                  Is there a sanction from the Federation applied to the EMPLOYER of a shamateur?
                                  F O.B
                                  Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                                  Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Linny View Post
                                    Gottagrey's post brings to mind a question.

                                    Is there a sanction from the Federation applied to the EMPLOYER of a shamateur?
                                    No, but there is a sanction against the person that signs as "Trainer" on the entry blank.
                                    Janet

                                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      If you review the violations reporst from thelast year, particularly the first 4 months, you should see pelenty of examples of judgements handed out against shams and their employers/traners of record on the form.

                                      Some do involve shams that had postings on the interwebs and flyers up at the show itself. talk about either

                                      DUMB

                                      or

                                      EGOTISTICAL
                                      _\\]
                                      -- * > hoopoe
                                      Procrastinate NOW
                                      Introverted Since 1957

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by shamateur View Post
                                        The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.
                                        Doesn't matter if they're good or if they suck, if they have six-figure warmbloods or a broken-down Amish plowhorse, even under the super-relaxed rules I would personally like to see enacted, they are advertising themselves as trainers, working as trainers, and presumably being paid as trainers. They've de facto declared themselves to be Professionals and shouldn't be competing as Amateurs. It's about as clear-cut a case of 'shamateurs' as one could ask for.
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