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    Original Poster

    #41
    Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
    So two things. One - 4 to 5 YO warmbloods can be a challenge in my experience. They think they know a lot more than they do and they get pretty cocky. Second, and this may not work for you, but I might suggest you take away all the grain. We are a barn full of young warmbloods in training and not one of ours is on grain. We do soaked beet pulp in a.m with some ration balancer and a cup of ultimate finish. In the afternoon, it’s beetpulp and soaked alfalfa cubes with some trace minerals. Ours are in strenuous training, show regularly in the hunters and jumper and are in hunter weight :-) and look absolutely fantastic. Also, it’s always my go to if they get suddenly spooky, do a lyme test.
    My mare will stay on a regular grain ration as she’s not doing as bad as the gelding is and a no grain diet is just not feasible for her. She’s not spooky in the least, just acting really weird and touch more hesitant than normal. I’ve owned this horse a long time so I feel more confident making decisions for her than my gelding.

    I am putting the gelding on a ration balancer. Was going to start with just an extra half pound of grain for the extra calories because the ration balancer alone isn’t enough. It is low NSCs so hoping this helps. He’s very lazy and sometimes makes it harder for me to push him past the scary things, so I am afraid to cut calories too much and have something dead. He will be getting even less grain though than what he is now and less calories. There is a good possibility he may come off the extra grain and just get the ration balancer. He is a much easier keeper than when he first came.

    As for lymes, is it possible for spookiness to be the only symptom? He is otherwise a very healthy guy and just had a neuro exam done not long ago. This horse has just been very very slow to develop and come into himself so we’ve been going slow with him.

    Thanks for the suggestion! Love to hear things that work for someone who has a similar experience - He definitely is cocky and thinks he knows a lot

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

      Vet had no problems with calorie to workload. My mare cannot just abruptly go off grain anyways. She’s a thoroughbred and will lose weight quickly. She’s been getting less calories than the other grain she was on and working more. Plus this horse has been in purina for the last year and a half. If she had too many calories she’d be leaping in the air. I’ve had her for 10 years and know the signs of excess energy in this mare. Plus she is ulcer prone, I think going on and off grain will be stressful for her and she needs to stay on outlast.

      The gelding on the other hand has been on it for only 6 months. I have continued to drop geldings grain by 5 lbs total less than when he came to be. He was actually better on more grain. The up and down days have only just begun in the last few months. I am very cautious about calories to work, since I’ve owned a hot thoroughbred for years, and hence cutting his grain down was the first thing I did.

      I don’t think taking them off grain is an option here. I don’t think it’d work in the situation since I saw no difference in huge reductions of grain.

      Horse will be slowly switched to new grain. Thanks for the idea though.
      You are welcome.

      Horses especially thoroughbreds do not need grains to be fat. It comes from grass and grassy hay.

      You add grain for energy and protein, but there is the saying. It is one thing to have a fat thoroughbred but it is your fault if you can't ride it.

      The realm of overfed and underworked is not for a vet to decide, it comes on from the regular feeding and workload and it will take the horse as long to get out of it as it did to get into it.

      This is individual for every horse. It is the horse that tells you if the ratio is right, not a vet.

      I did not say take off grain indefinitely. I said take off grain until the tightrope feeling has passed, until the horse is good every day for a week.

      All my horses are thoroughbreds and thrown away from people who don't want them. All are immediately taken off grains as all were on them and it had gone to their heads. None are on grains that contain oats or corn.

      All are fat, even the ones near and over 20.

      All are in work and sane. I prefer barley as it fattens without going to their head. But the real fattener is the grass they graze and the grassy hay they have free access to.

      Then I boil barley for them with lucerne chaff and a pellet called Easyride by Prydes, a supplement that has biotin that we mix ourselves and a lick block that is supposed to have everything in it a performance horse needs.

      When the workload increases I swap the Easiride to Easisport as it has more protein.

      Another tb brought here on Sunday. The girl is interested in dressage but when I went riding in a stock saddle as she didnt feel safe in her dressage saddle and he is feeling antsy.

      I said no to the corn and oats feed, give it to your chooks. Shock horror not the good feed she has paid for.

      I took him off all grain and a light lunge twice a day as he us a trail ride horse not a dressage horse yet.

      She came yesterday, rode himm for over half an hour and commented on how good he was and how safe he felt, not antsy at all.

      We can build from that with better feeds and he us eating the grassy hay that she turned her nose up at and said he wouldn't eat. He gets a biscuit twice a day of her lucerne hay.

      Yesterday was his 4th day here. We can start adding a bit of a hard feed as he is now pretty sane. I will think about that on Monday when he has been here a week.
      It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #43
        Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post

        You are welcome.

        Horses especially thoroughbreds do not need grains to be fat. It comes from grass and grassy hay.

        You add grain for energy and protein, but there is the saying. It is one thing to have a fat thoroughbred but it is your fault if you can't ride it.

        The realm of overfed and underworked is not for a vet to decide, it comes on from the regular feeding and workload and it will take the horse as long to get out of it as it did to get into it.

        This is individual for every horse. It is the horse that tells you if the ratio is right, not a vet.

        I did not say take off grain indefinitely. I said take off grain until the tightrope feeling has passed, until the horse is good every day for a week.

        All my horses are thoroughbreds and thrown away from people who don't want them. All are immediately taken off grains as all were on them and it had gone to their heads. None are on grains that contain oats or corn.

        All are fat, even the ones near and over 20.

        All are in work and sane. I prefer barley as it fattens without going to their head. But the real fattener is the grass they graze and the grassy hay they have free access to.

        Then I boil barley for them with lucerne chaff and a pellet called Easyride by Prydes, a supplement that has biotin that we mix ourselves and a lick block that is supposed to have everything in it a performance horse needs.

        When the workload increases I swap the Easiride to Easisport as it has more protein.

        Another tb brought here on Sunday. The girl is interested in dressage but when I went riding in a stock saddle as she didnt feel safe in her dressage saddle and he is feeling antsy.

        I said no to the corn and oats feed, give it to your chooks. Shock horror not the good feed she has paid for.

        I took him off all grain and a light lunge twice a day as he us a trail ride horse not a dressage horse yet.

        She came yesterday, rode himm for over half an hour and commented on how good he was and how safe he felt, not antsy at all.

        We can build from that with better feeds and he us eating the grassy hay that she turned her nose up at and said he wouldn't eat. He gets a biscuit twice a day of her lucerne hay.

        Yesterday was his 4th day here. We can start adding a bit of a hard feed as he is now pretty sane. I will think about that on Monday when he has been here a week.
        that’s wonderful you found a plan that works for you! Agreed not all thoroughbreds need grain to be fat, but this mare needs over 7,000 calories a day which with my current hay resources would never be able to get the required calories.

        I still don’t think it’s a good option for my mare who is ulcer prone anyways. I think that’s too much off and on even if for a brief period. I’m pretty confident this mare is not over fed and underworked considering she’s gotten more calories in the past and been in less work with no issues.

        Could potentially be the issue with the gelding, but unlikely again since he has cut back calories/amount of grain drastically and increased work quite a bit and turnout since coming to me.

        I very much agree to no corn and oats diets. I have increasingly found more whole corn kernels in this grain over the last few months. I would almost guarantee this is playing a big part. I just got the new grain today so I am starting the switch tomorrow.

        Will keep everyone posted!!

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

          that’s wonderful you found a plan that works for you! Agreed not all thoroughbreds need grain to be fat, but this mare needs over 7,000 calories a day which with my current hay resources would never be able to get the required calories.

          I still don’t think it’s a good option for my mare who is ulcer prone anyways. I think that’s too much off and on even if for a brief period. I’m pretty confident this mare is not over fed and underworked considering she’s gotten more calories in the past and been in less work with no issues.

          Could potentially be the issue with the gelding, but unlikely again since he has cut back calories/amount of grain drastically and increased work quite a bit and turnout since coming to me.

          I very much agree to no corn and oats diets. I have increasingly found more whole corn kernels in this grain over the last few months. I would almost guarantee this is playing a big part. I just got the new grain today so I am starting the switch tomorrow.

          Will keep everyone posted!!
          Good luck.

          AFAIK eating grain is painful to horses with ulcers, which is why Colic signs can be seen after feeding.

          Instead lucerne (alfalfa) hay is a buffer, so you should feed half a biscuit of hay before riding or transporting. The horse should be fed on the ground and not in a feeder on the wall. Ad lib hay should be given as well as much turn out as possible. (Learned in a lecture given by a vet.)

          I, personally, have never heard of feeding grain as being needed as part of the regime for horses with ulcers.
          It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

          Comment


            #45
            Also he said in that lecture that 100% of horses in stables with radios tested positive for ulcers.
            It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #46
              Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post

              Good luck.

              AFAIK eating grain is painful to horses with ulcers, which is why Colic signs can be seen after feeding.

              Instead lucerne (alfalfa) hay is a buffer, so you should feed half a biscuit of hay before riding or transporting. The horse should be fed on the ground and not in a feeder on the wall. Ad lib hay should be given as well as much turn out as possible. (Learned in a lecture given by a vet.)

              I, personally, have never heard of feeding grain as being needed as part of the regime for horses with ulcers.
              I am not feeding grain because of ulcers, aside from the outlast supplement to help prevent, but I don’t want to put her on and off grain and create unnecessary changes. She needs grain for weight as getting required calories are not obtainable by hay diet alone for this mare. You are right no grain is better for ulcer horses.

              Comment


                #47
                Has his forage changed? Spring grass or increased grass in general could be contributing much more sugar than the grain.
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                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by gypsymare View Post
                  Has his forage changed? Spring grass or increased grass in general could be contributing much more sugar than the grain.
                  Yes! Forage hasn’t changed as far as hay goes, but he is on grass now when he wasn’t all winter. He was in a dry lot for a few hours a day and now out half day on grass. Not sure why I didn’t think of this, maybe because I thought more turnout was better, but I do wonder if this is a big factor too!
                  Last edited by ThoroughbredLuver; Jul. 13, 2020, 10:54 AM.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

                    Yes! Forage hasn’t changed, but he is on grass now when he wasn’t all winter. He was in a dry lot for a few hours a day and now out half day on grass. Not sure why I didn’t think of this, maybe because I thought more turnout was better, but I do wonder if this is a big factor too!
                    How much feed you feed changes all the time. It changes because of grass growth or no grass because of drought or killed by frost. How much riding as in full work or can't ride because of injury or illness. Etc etc etc.
                    It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                    Comment

                      Original Poster

                      #50
                      Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post

                      How much feed you feed changes all the time. It changes because of grass growth or no grass because of drought or killed by frost. How much riding as in full work or can't ride because of injury or illness. Etc etc etc.
                      I have rehabbed many many horses and changed grain accordingly so I am pretty well versed in grain/calorie changes according to hay/grass/work load.

                      I knew grain would change for this horse from increased grass intake at a weight standpoint, but I looked past the reasoning behind it and missed accounting for increased sugar from the grass.

                      Regardless, the horse has already been on the new grain for a week now and I’m already seeing improvements. He’s starting to go back to his normal behavior and more consistent from day to day. Given the improvement, I think grain was involved In this scenario since nothing else has changed. Whether it was the sugar, because I was able to cut NSCs in half, the corn, or something else. Either way, I’m thrilled he seems more comfortable!

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #51
                        !!UPDATE!!

                        The horse has been on new grain for about a week now and I am super thrilled with the results so far! He seems to be getting much more comfortable everyday and is getting more consistent from day to day. Doesn’t seem as “weird” as he was. I’ll be switching my mare over as well once I have some more time to confirm the grain is the culprit of the positive changes in the gelding. I’ll try to keep updating as time goes with the gelding and once the mare switches. Thanks everyone for the help!

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post
                          !!UPDATE!!

                          The horse has been on new grain for about a week now and I am super thrilled with the results so far! He seems to be getting much more comfortable everyday and is getting more consistent from day to day. Doesn’t seem as “weird” as he was. I’ll be switching my mare over as well once I have some more time to confirm the grain is the culprit of the positive changes in the gelding. I’ll try to keep updating as time goes with the gelding and once the mare switches. Thanks everyone for the help!
                          YAY
                          It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                          Comment

                            Original Poster

                            #53
                            Wanted to give another update since some more time has passed.

                            The gelding is doing FANTASTIC on the ration balancer and senior gold! No more spooking and much much more level headed again! He’s coming out more consistent on a day to day basis - well as much as a 4 year old can

                            He is happy to work and his coat and topline look amazing! I pulled out some small spurs and I’m ready to go! Thanks everyone for the help!

                            Comment

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