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Careless Show Jumping

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    #41
    Originally posted by kiwichick View Post

    We dont have PSSM down here, or any of the EM/PM type things
    OP, I think you are confusing EPM and PSSM. Two different issues. EPM is a parasite in some regions of the world; PSSM/EPSM is a genetic quirk in how muscles can break down & use energy. Sometimes this can lead to performance issues, including the very on and off (great days and bad days) behaviour you are experiencing.

    Here is an excellent video lecture by Dr. Valberg, one of the leading researchers into muscle diseases. This should help you understand:
    https://youtu.be/oyQCvE9aXt4

    PSSM breaks down into two types, PSSM1 and PSSM2. PSSM 1 is easy to test for, there is a DNA test available for about $40 and you can find details here: https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine...sease/PSSM.asp

    PSSM 2 is trickier as it requires a muscle biopsy to confirm. Many people opt not to do the biopsy, instead changing the feed of the horse to see if you can better supply energy to the muscles and prevent some of the performance issues that seem similar to what you (might) be noticing. It may not be what you are dealing with but it might help to rule it out. Maybe a change of food can help him physically lift his feet off the ground, leading to more of those good days you mentioned where he is nibble and quick?

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

      OP, I think you are confusing EPM and PSSM. Two different issues. EPM is a parasite in some regions of the world; PSSM/EPSM is a genetic quirk in how muscles can break down & use energy. Sometimes this can lead to performance issues, including the very on and off (great days and bad days) behaviour you are experiencing.

      Here is an excellent video lecture by Dr. Valberg, one of the leading researchers into muscle diseases. This should help you understand:
      https://youtu.be/oyQCvE9aXt4

      PSSM breaks down into two types, PSSM1 and PSSM2. PSSM 1 is easy to test for, there is a DNA test available for about $40 and you can find details here: https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine...sease/PSSM.asp

      PSSM 2 is trickier as it requires a muscle biopsy to confirm. Many people opt not to do the biopsy, instead changing the feed of the horse to see if you can better supply energy to the muscles and prevent some of the performance issues that seem similar to what you (might) be noticing. It may not be what you are dealing with but it might help to rule it out. Maybe a change of food can help him physically lift his feet off the ground, leading to more of those good days you mentioned where he is nibble and quick?
      Thanks for the info, I've not heard of anything here with it.

      I just thought about the feed, it's beet pulp which is apparently ok, alfalfa which I don't know, and the pellet is a grain free one but I'm not sure other than that, what's actually in it. Thats not every day either, just the riding days.

      What can I change the feed too, to test it? While the horse has never tied up, it can be hard to warm up, and is very inconsistent to ride being both the hottest horse I've ever ridden and the biggest slug, sometimes with the same ride.

      If it's just a feed change sure worth a go

      Comment


        #43
        Do you board your horse or is he at home?
        Is he getting any other hay besides alfalfa?
        Not all vets are well educated in equine nutrition beyond what is required in vet school, so if there is an equine nutritionist in your area you may want to get a consultation .

        You may want to start a new thread in the Horse Care forum about the feeding of horses with PSSM/EPSM.

        But in the meantime, bagged feed has a tag with the nutritional information on it and wil give the amount of NSC( sugar content. )

        Also be aware that most beet pulp based feed probably has molasses added to it, and it is a good way to get weight on older horses, but it may not be the best choice for your horse.

        If you board , sometimes the BM/BO doesnt always know how to feed horses with certain disorders.
        This is no reflection on them.

        There's a lot about equine nutrition that horse owners have to learn about the hard way.

        Certified Guacophobe

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen View Post
          Do you board your horse or is he at home?
          Is he getting any other hay besides alfalfa?
          Not all vets are well educated in equine nutrition beyond what is required in vet school, so if there is an equine nutritionist in your area you may want to get a consultation .

          You may want to start a new thread in the Horse Care forum about the feeding of horses with PSSM/EPSM.

          But in the meantime, bagged feed has a tag with the nutritional information on it and wil give the amount of NSC( sugar content. )

          Also be aware that most beet pulp based feed probably has molasses added to it, and it is a good way to get weight on older horses, but it may not be the best choice for your horse.

          If you board , sometimes the BM/BO doesnt always know how to feed horses with certain disorders.
          This is no reflection on them.

          There's a lot about equine nutrition that horse owners have to learn about the hard way.
          Yes horse is boarded. Gets liberal meadow hay.
          I was feeding oil at one stage and ran out and haven't gotten more, but that didnt appear to have any affect on the on/off days and we are having a number of on days currently without oil (and on days can result in entire fences down as charging and being a general twat)

          The sugar for the beet im using is advertised as no added molasses, its nutritional panel says:
          Total Sugar 5.0
          And this makes up the bulk of the feed

          The pellet feed doesnt have sugar listed unless its this
          Digestible Energy (MJ/kg)13.2

          Horse gets very little of that one anyway, 1cup 4 days a week I would say.

          But the other type of hay I give would be high in sugar, which ive cut out currently due to aforementioned on/twat days currently (seasonal change down here)

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by kiwichick View Post
            Yes horse is boarded. Gets liberal meadow hay.
            I was feeding oil at one stage and ran out and haven't gotten more, but that didnt appear to have any affect on the on/off days and we are having a number of on days currently without oil (and on days can result in entire fences down as charging and being a general twat)
            Oil would be beneficial.

            The sugar for the beet im using is advertised as no added molasses, its nutritional panel says:
            What’s the brand? How much do you give?

            The pellet feed doesnt have sugar listed unless its this
            Digestible Energy (MJ/kg)13.2

            Horse gets very little of that one anyway, 1cup 4 days a week I would say.
            Is there a brand name? It’s the NSC that’s important.

            But the other type of hay I give would be high in sugar, which ive cut out currently due to aforementioned on/twat days currently (seasonal change down here)
            Your horse should then never get that hay.

            Horses with PSSM needs to be fed and trained in a very regular/strict schedule. The 4 times per week feeding doesn’t seem very appropriate and could lead to ulcers - which could also explain the on/off days within one ride as well.

            If the training is irregular in intensity (day off and then good workout), pretty sure your horse will be sore and hard to « warmup » has it has cramps in its big muscles...

            Horses usually don’t have those on/off days and are not twat without explanations... it’s more than often something physical that’s bothering them.

            With my mare, she’s not allowed any candies, treats, apple or carrots... Too bas so sad, she no longer have what could be seen as « mood swings » and I intend to keep it that way.

            ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

            Originally posted by LauraKY
            I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

            Comment


              #46
              Equine nutrition has changed a lot over the years.

              Most people used to just feed whatever the horse was already eating.

              Deciphering nutritional information can be challenging, for sure.

              I believe alfalfa does not have a high sugar content but it should not be the only source of roughage as it can cause an imbalance with calcium/phosphorus ratios. And some horses are allergic to alfalfa.

              Even certain types of grass have to be avoided as they have too much sugar and it can be very difficult to work around this, if that particular type of grass is all you have access to.

              There are some posters on COTH that are much more knowledgeable about equine nutrition than I and can give you better guidance

              That is why i suggested posting in the Horse Care forum.

              From what you have written, your horse may be having some pain or discomfort and is not just being lazy.

              You may want to have a vet out to evaluate your horse.

              I understand about trying to find some simple answers, but it is only fair to your horse to make sure there is no underlying physical issue .

              Good luck.

              Certified Guacophobe

              Comment


                #47
                The video will explain the medical reasoning behind it.

                There are two camps: oil or ALCAR. Both need high fat low starch (low NSC such Ultium) feed as a base. If your horse is an easy keeper, you may find it easier to switch to a complete multivitamin supplement (think horsetech grass or the like) on a base of hay cubes. If you can get the balance cubes (fortified with vitamins) even better - they are called Balance Cubes in the US and Timothy Cubes in Canada. https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/prod...balance-cubes/ These are fortified as a complete feed so they have additional vitamin minerals added in it.

                ALCAR has been a *game changer* for mine. I can tell if I run out - within one or two days muscles get tight enough it feels like I can bounce a quarter off. The dosage for ALCAR is 1 g per 100 KG - so about 5 to 6 g per horse. They don’t mind the taste so no fight there, smells like citric acid or the like.

                Here is an old thread to provide some further information: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...h-fat-to-alcar

                I am not a vet and don’t play one on the internet. Watch the video I previously linked, talk to your vet (encourage them to read up on it as many are not familiar) and do the DNA test if you can spare the $40. You might get your horse back - I did.
                Get your Acetyl L-Carnitine HCL for just 39.95 and other at Uckele. Same day shipping and price guarantee! Click here!

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

                  Oil would be beneficial.


                  What’s the brand? How much do you give?



                  Is there a brand name? It’s the NSC that’s important.



                  The 4 times per week feeding doesn’t seem very appropriate and could lead to ulcers - which could also explain the on/off days within one ride as well.


                  Its a New Zealand Brand, so likely one no one is familiar with.

                  Sorry the 4x a week isnt the feeding schedule, I probably wasnt clear, the pellets feed is additional feed I give when saddling up with alfalfa. Horse is fed 2 x a day beet and alfalfa every single day along with hay

                  And the reason its 4 days a week is due to riding 4 x a week as its winter here and thats the most I can manage with my work schedule at this time of year.
                  Last edited by kiwichick; Jun. 24, 2020, 10:58 PM.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen View Post
                    Equine nutrition has changed a lot over the years.

                    Most people used to just feed whatever the horse was already eating.

                    Deciphering nutritional information can be challenging, for sure.

                    I believe alfalfa does not have a high sugar content but it should not be the only source of roughage as it can cause an imbalance with calcium/phosphorus ratios. And some horses are allergic to alfalfa.

                    Even certain types of grass have to be avoided as they have too much sugar and it can be very difficult to work around this, if that particular type of grass is all you have access to.

                    There are some posters on COTH that are much more knowledgeable about equine nutrition than I and can give you better guidance

                    That is why i suggested posting in the Horse Care forum.

                    From what you have written, your horse may be having some pain or discomfort and is not just being lazy.

                    You may want to have a vet out to evaluate your horse.

                    I understand about trying to find some simple answers, but it is only fair to your horse to make sure there is no underlying physical issue .

                    Good luck.
                    he did recently have a full lameness work up including a lot of hind end xrays and bloods, at my request for my peace of mind. Ive not noticed any correlation between the slug days and anything immediately prior, and ive never had a slug day at a competition of which he has done a fair number, so im not convinced there is an underlying physical issue, but im happy to rule it out.

                    Thanks

                    Comment


                      #50
                      That's good.
                      You can experiment with diet if you are careful and change one thing at a time.
                      Good luck
                      Certified Guacophobe

                      Comment


                        #51
                        If you're open to trying the diet option, a friend of mine with a PSSM type horse cut all sugar and basically tried a horsey "keto" diet. Most of his calories came from fat and fiber. Cut all sugar, I'd try to keep him off alfalfa for 2-3 mos (potassium can trigger my friends horse) and supplement vitamin e. May be worth a shot.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Do your NZ feed companies have specialist equine nutrionists on staff? Could you ask your main feed company for advice?
                          "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by specifiedcupcake View Post
                            If you're open to trying the diet option, a friend of mine with a PSSM type horse cut all sugar and basically tried a horsey "keto" diet. Most of his calories came from fat and fiber. Cut all sugar, I'd try to keep him off alfalfa for 2-3 mos (potassium can trigger my friends horse) and supplement vitamin e. May be worth a shot.
                            What does she use in place of Alfalfa?

                            Comment

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