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Sophie Gochman op-ed and follow ups.

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    Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

    feel free to enlighten me as to where exactly I exhibited privilege and especially white privilege in my post? Again... are you assuming I am white? Isn't that a racist assumption/ Because you very well could be wrong.
    This reminds me of your posts on the racing forum that say (paraphrasing) "How do you know I don't have racehorses in training? I may have several" and " How do you know I'm not a breeder?" when it is clear that you don't own or breed racehorses and "How do you know I don't go to the sales?" when you clearly know nothing about how the sales work.

    It is easy for people to know that you aren't an owner or breeder and that you don't work in the industry. Your lack of knowledge about racing and breeding and your posts on other COTH forums make this clear. You underestimate people's intelligence and it does get old.

    I'm not surprised that you have racist views. You gave us a glimpse of them on the racing forum (where you also seemed to forget saying something that you had just said.)

    Comment


      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

      every time I try to "like" this post, I get an error message.
      Ghazzu I have been unable to log in for the last 4 days and when I tried, I got the same error message.

      The log in issue has been corrected, but I can't "like" my own post to see if that issue is fixed.

      Comment


        Originally posted by skydy View Post

        Ghazzu I have been unable to log in for the last 4 days and when I tried, I got the same error message.

        The log in issue has been corrected, but I can't "like" my own post to see if that issue is fixed.
        I just went back and liked it and it worked.
        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

        Comment


          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

          I just went back and liked it and it worked.
          Ok. Thanks.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post

            Not sure anyone is making an excuse, but I certainly am not but here we are. You can’t go back in time and learn anything, you have to start from where you are today, wherever that may be. It absolutely is better late that never in this instance in my opinion.
            What you say is metaphysically true-- no one can know before they learn. But boy-howdy I don't like the unimpeachability of the big-eyed, "I didn't know" whine when it comes from a privileged person who was dragged to a position of enlightenment at last. Just what were you doing with all that privilege if not using it to help those born lower on the hierarchy that benefits you, all you well-intentioned, good people?

            Yanno, in the bad-old-days of the 19th century when white people genuinely believed that they were superior to those of other races, the richest among those were also taught that they had a responsibility for those who had the misfortune to be less well-bred (and therefore better off) than they. The unchallenged, easy assumption of their natural or God-given superiority is, of course, deeply offensive and, as it turns out founded on no currently credible science. But! I do miss the sense of noblesse oblige that some rich American philanthropists used to feel and the kind of Christianity that (they said at least) spurred them to act.

            Our solution to the offenses and real injustices done by such a rigged and bigoted system has been do declare everyone equal. If you were born with advantage, you kept that under wraps. You developed a work ethic so that you could be as credible, not average, but credible. Sure, you were born into a situation that, say, made matriculating at Harvard fathomable in a way that it was not for someone else born to different circumstances. But you sure did want everyone to know that your huge head start didn't mean you didn't work hard and were spoiled.

            And so we come to this moment were disparity and wealth looks as large as it was in the last quarter of the 19th century; social mobility is becoming ever-less possible;, and if you are born of the wrong demographics, you are likely to receive very different-- even dangerous-- treatment before the law (which apparently never progressed beyond Lambroso and Galton). But that whole historical period of vigorous denial of privilege happened. And now white people can't figure out what to do. When they are forced to see the *truth* that their unasked-for and unearned privilege real and impossible to escape, whether or not they know it, sounds like an accusation to be contested. Not only is that too bad, but it's not even necessary. Using your privilege to good ends is always and option. It always was an option.

            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


              Originally posted by FitzE View Post

              This really sums everything up. No one in their right mind would be mad at you for saying that. And shame on Missy Clark for having to have POC stop their own lives to educate her and not even acknowledging it. I'm not saying get mad at her for her follow-up response but, really, there is no excuse even if you're in a "horse world bubble." That bubble exists in the actual world and newspapers and newscasts reach everywhere. No one should actually be or feign being as clueless about systemic racism in the US or anywhere for that matter as was presented in that clap back to Sophie's statement.
              That's kind of you to stand with my hard-ass position on where the burden of enlightenment and change lies. But I do think this is new, new, new to many white people. BTW, I am white. I grew up in ways that gave a taste of what it was like to be "the other guy" who was born a proverbial 75 feet behind the people everyone kindly told me were my equals. To me, it just looked like a matter of necessity and telling the truth to point out the ugliness that came from uncontested privilege when I saw it.

              Let me be clear: My "taste" of this problem, though it has was lasting through my childhood and profoundly shaped my awareness and my ethics, does *not* qualify me to speak on the experience of being black in America. There is a whole other level of literal danger black people are subjected to and taught to know about that was not part of my experience.

              But having been that PITA person who speaks up at a dinner party for the people who would never be at that dinner party is familiar to me. I have been doing it for more than 30 years. So I'm a bit impatient with all of the other white adults that are just now getting a clue. I will admit to being unusually unsympathetic to the people now who are just getting it. But you can see that I have been waiting a long time. And I do agree that it's better late than never. I am hopeful to see what might change *this* time.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


                Originally posted by FitzE View Post

                [Bolding and colour-change mine]

                @snaffle1987: seriously stop. You are embarrassing yourself repeatedly. YOU said you were white so stop with what you clearly think is a clever little trick of challenging people who reference your being white. You proudly proclaimed it in your first post on this thread. Sorry, too late to play your little "how do you know I'm white - you assume!" BS "reverse racism" game. It's pathetic and it doesn't work particularly if you're not even clever enough to remember you proudly outed your damn self ages ago.

                Just stop. It's so juvenile and cringe worthy and pathetic that you don't remember what you yourself posted.


                ETA:



                FYI, there's no such thing as "reverse discrimination" so for the love of all things good and holy, stop. Show some intelligence if not some shame.
                You're beating your head against a wall. This is snaffle's usual manner of posting, and it doesn't change.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Sunflower View Post
                  I was co-teaching a law class with a person of "racial ambiguity." The students were all white. I am white. When my co-professor left the room, students made comments about cases and laws in a way highly derogatory to anyone who was not white, and included comments that come near to racial slurs about my co-professor. They seemed to think we had a secret alliance of being white that allowed these things to be said and that we as white people all agreed upon them. It was distressing and it was wrong, but I cannot say I was shocked or surprised as I have seen this over and over in various places and settings. Where a non-white persoon is present, fake pleasantries are made and no racist statements are offered. Non-white person exits and there is a rush to want to solidify the white alliance by those that remain. I try to call out racism when it is done in my presence. It is hard to know how to do this. I don't think I do it very well. I try.

                  I left a family gathering of my then spouse's family when people persisted on using the "n" word. I said I preferred not to hear it, and was told that they would say what they wanted in their house. And then the word was used deliberately many times in short succession to see what I would do. I said that it was their house and they could do what they wanted, but I did not have to stay and listen, and so I left. My departure was seen as the great sin, rather than their use of the "n" word, in the rows that followed. Was this a very good way to handle this situation? I don't know. It was what I could think to do at the time.

                  I was at a party of various professional people attending with my then spouse. A man told a racist joke. I objected to it. The man then lit into me wanting to know what I cared, as a white person, about his racist joke, and said I was ruining his good time at the party. So-- I said I was not white, I only looked white, and his joke was objectionable and offensive. Again-- probably not the best response. I was just reacting on the spot. He challenged me about not being white. I said his challenge was racist. His wife then came into the fray and told him to put a sock in it and made him apologize to me. I gave my greetings to the party host and went home. Aftermath-- then spouse and others from the party outraged that I had upset their good fun and jokes, and was I really a "n" as I had said? (I did not use that word). Was there a better way to handle this? Without a doubt. But it was all I could think to do at the time.

                  I try to figure out other better ways to respond. When I am exposed to racism, it is in the presence of all white people, not with a non-white person present.
                  I've found that telling people that you find their racist remarks offensive and that they make you uncomfortable is the only way to deal with that sort of situation. If they don't respect your feelings, leave.

                  I was raised by parents that didn't teach me racism, or discrimination against any ethnic group or religion, and it's true that you have to be taught to be an intolerant person and to hate people that you've never met.

                  In the community where I was raised racist jokes were not OK. That doesn't mean that there were no racists among us, there probably were, but they knew that their racism was unacceptable to the majority and kept it to themselves when in school and when in other people's homes.

                  Therefore I was stunned when, as an adult, I first heard people being openly racist. I have left a gathering for that reason as well. All you can do is to explain that you find their views offensive and appalling, if they don't get it then leave and choose not to associate with them in the future. Surprisingly there are usually other people present that are offended as well, but they don't speak up and I'm not sure why, but that's another reason to speak up. Sometimes people don't have the courage and need an example.

                  In my experience, the guilty parties were not as educated, or as thoughtful, or as kind to others, as the people of color and the gay people whom they were disparaging. I point that out to them as well.

                  Thankfully I again live in an area where racist jokes and ideology aren't shared in polite company, because it's considered ignorant, shameful and unacceptable by most people.

                  We have such a long way to go. People may be silent in their racist beliefs and stereotypes but they're obviously there, lurking beneath the surface.

                  If anything is to change it has to begin with parents teaching their children not to hate, and with the purge of racism from our laws, our institutions and our Government.

                  We had so much hope during the civil rights movement in the 60's and 70's and it's so disappointing that we are no closer to "justice for all" then we were 50 or 60 years ago.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by skydy View Post

                    This reminds me of your posts on the racing forum that say (paraphrasing) "How do you know I don't have racehorses in training? I may have several" and " How do you know I'm not a breeder?" when it is clear that you don't own or breed racehorses and "How do you know I don't go to the sales?" when you clearly know nothing about how the sales work.

                    It is easy for people to know that you aren't an owner or breeder and that you don't work in the industry. Your lack of knowledge about racing and breeding and your posts on other COTH forums make this clear. You underestimate people's intelligence and it does get old.

                    I'm not surprised that you have racist views. You gave us a glimpse of them on the racing forum (where you also seemed to forget saying something that you had just said.)
                    Far from racist, my friend. Very far from racist.
                    "The problem with making assumptions is that we believe they are the truth. We make an assumption. We misunderstand. We take it personally. Then we react by sending an emotional poison with our word. This creates drama, for nothing"

                    Never once said anything racist on the racing forum. I will stand by that word.

                    And for fact; I am an owner. A lot of owners in the racing industry don't care to get involved in the inner-workings of the industry. They invest their money and stand back and let the professionals handle it. The professionals often prefer this course of action. My stable is a portfolio of sorts. I can walk into any of the sales I so choose and have done so. As a spectator and a buyer; but again my buying is done by people I trust, for me. I let the professionals handle it.

                    Carry on.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                      A helluva good start would be to acknowledge the issue of institutionalized racism instead of denying it's very existence.
                      So say I acknowledge it. I did not deny its existence. What does acknowledging something do> I have yet to see anyone provide a plan as to what would be acceptable in modern-day society. Sophie Gochman can complain like the entitled, spoiled teenager that she is. Its great that she acknowledges it; though! But what are each of us going to personally do to change it? What is the industry going to change it within the industry? I am all years and I have yet to see one ounce of constructive conversation here that would provide some insight into how this should be addressed. I am all ears and I have been waiting...

                      Have any of you wrote to your employers? Taken this upon with your city government? Emailed or called your government officials? Reached out to your African american friends and personally asked what their thoughts are on this subject? how do they personally feel? What they think needs to be changed?

                      Personally attacking Missy Clark for her point of view is not solving anything.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                        No question Eric Lamaze has not had an easy life.

                        However, his path would have likely been impossible for a black man. If he'd ever even gotten a chance to ride, if he'd ever even gotten the opportunity for the world class horses he's had, he would be in jail for his drug use now. If he wasn't already dead for lack of appropriate medical care.
                        ...or from being shot or suffocated by a police officer while being arrested.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by FitzE View Post

                          [Bolding and colour-change mine]

                          @snaffle1987: seriously stop. You are embarrassing yourself repeatedly. YOU said you were white so stop with what you clearly think is a clever little trick of challenging people who reference your being white. You proudly proclaimed it in your first post on this thread. Sorry, too late to play your little "how do you know I'm white - you assume!" BS "reverse racism" game. It's pathetic and it doesn't work particularly if you're not even clever enough to remember you proudly outed your damn self ages ago.

                          Just stop. It's so juvenile and cringe worthy and pathetic that you don't remember what you yourself posted.


                          ETA:



                          FYI, there's no such thing as "reverse discrimination" so for the love of all things good and holy, stop. Show some intelligence if not some shame.
                          My post was a theoretical standpoint. Get with it. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. The argument is a valid one which had been had within many circles of many of my friendships. A friend actually brought up that point about having to apologize for being white nowadays. This goes along the lines of far left individuals taking photos of their toddler children holding signs that say "I am sorry I was born privileged, I am sorry I am white, I am sorry".

                          Perhaps maybe, just maybe, all of you cannot understand that you refuse to see what you are doing to your own race. The idea that this "movement" is putting in the heads of others.

                          Your white privilege argument is in-fact putting shame and guilt upon those who are born Caucasian. I find that incredibly cringe-worthy, pathetic, and sad.

                          For your information my father is African American. My mother is Caucasian. I am considered Black in society.



                          Comment


                            Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                            My post was a theoretical standpoint. Get with it. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. The argument is a valid one which had been had within many circles of many of my friendships. A friend actually brought up that point about having to apologize for being white nowadays. This goes along the lines of far left individuals taking photos of their toddler children holding signs that say "I am sorry I was born privileged, I am sorry I am white, I am sorry".

                            Perhaps maybe, just maybe, all of you cannot understand that you refuse to see what you are doing to your own race. The idea that this "movement" is putting in the heads of others.

                            Your white privilege argument is in-fact putting shame and guilt upon those who are born Caucasian. I find that incredibly cringe-worthy, pathetic, and sad.

                            For your information my father is African American. My mother is Caucasian. I am considered Black in society.


                            If it is true (big if) that society considers you to be African American it's Interesting that you consider yourself white.

                            As for the rest of your post, your friend's "felling that they have to apologize for being white nowadays" is pathological and is a personal problem that is uncommon. Movements don't put ideas in peoples heads, mentally healthy people are capable of thinking for themselves.

                            No one is taking pictures of toddlers with signs apologizing for their race. That is some paranoid racist fantasy, or a very sick photo shop.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by skydy View Post

                              If it is true (big if) that society considers you to be African American it's Interesting that you consider yourself white.

                              As for the rest of your post, your friend's "felling that they have to apologize for being white nowadays" is pathological and is a personal problem that is uncommon. Movements don't put ideas in peoples heads, mentally healthy people are capable of thinking for themselves.

                              No one is taking pictures of toddlers with signs apologizing for their race. That is some paranoid racist fantasy, or a very sick photo shop
                              .
                              [bolding mine] Couldn't have said it better. It's a strange group you run with, snaffle, if this is their take away from what's happening. But given your posts and your abundant inaccuracies and self-contradictions, I'm not surprised you're hanging about with a bunch of delusional white conspiracy theorists who feel they are oppressed. What you (and your oppressed white crew) call "shame and guilt" is merely "education and understanding" as seen through the lens of people for whom the present system works very well and who don't want it to change. As the saying goes, "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

                              Too bad, so sad. Time is long past due for a seismic change.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                                Far from racist, my friend. Very far from racist.
                                "The problem with making assumptions is that we believe they are the truth. We make an assumption. We misunderstand. We take it personally. Then we react by sending an emotional poison with our word. This creates drama, for nothing"

                                Never once said anything racist on the racing forum. I will stand by that word.

                                And for fact; I am an owner. A lot of owners in the racing industry don't care to get involved in the inner-workings of the industry. They invest their money and stand back and let the professionals handle it. The professionals often prefer this course of action. My stable is a portfolio of sorts. I can walk into any of the sales I so choose and have done so. As a spectator and a buyer; but again my buying is done by people I trust, for me. I let the professionals handle it.

                                Carry on.
                                Sorry snaffle, you don't own or breed racehorses, no matter how many times you try to convince people that you do. That fact has been made clear by you and your own posts. You seem to lose track of what you write from day to day.

                                Trying to explain your ignorance where racing, breeding and sales are concerned by claiming you just own horses and let others do the work is pitiful.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by skydy View Post

                                  Sorry snaffle, you don't own or breed racehorses, no matter how many times you try to convince people that you do. That fact has been made clear by you and your own posts. You seem to lose track of what you write from day to day.

                                  Trying to explain your ignorance where racing, breeding and sales are concerned by claiming you just own horses and let others do the work is pitiful.
                                  This is the problem with lying. Eventually there are too many details the liar has to remember and keep consistent. Snaffy lost track a long time ago.

                                  Not to say I miss Palm Beach, but that poster did a fairly thorough stitch-up job on Snaff.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Mara View Post

                                    This is the problem with lying. Eventually there are too many details the liar has to remember and keep consistent. Snaffy lost track a long time ago.

                                    Not to say I miss Palm Beach, but that poster did a fairly thorough stitch-up job on Snaff.
                                    Off topic- Why was Palm Beach banner?
                                    Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Pennywell Bay View Post

                                      Off topic- Why was Palm Beach banner?
                                      I can't recall who the "real" COTHer was, but she admitted to creating the Palm Beach account expressly to be a troll. It all unraveled in the Horse Care subforum.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                                        For your information my father is African American. My mother is Caucasian. I am considered Black in society.


                                        Wait a sec. If you are considered black in society, how is it that you are so made about being asked to apologize for being white?

                                        Do you mean that within black society are you considered white and asked to apologize for your privilege?
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Mara View Post

                                          I can't recall who the "real" COTHer was, but she admitted to creating the Palm Beach account expressly to be a troll. It all unraveled in the Horse Care subforum.
                                          Yeah there were like, what, three accounts at least that all spoke differently but were the same person.

                                          Comment

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