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The Secret Of The Universe

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  • The Secret Of The Universe

    I usually ride my well broke horse. I started him many years ago and I (and many other ammies who have ridden him) can find perfect distances. But, today I rode my young horse, who has only had pro rides. My job was hill works, at the walk, to strengthen his hind end.. How hard could that be?

    As it turned out, it was very hard. For those of you who know S Pines, I was on the Hunter Trial Field, with flat and hilly areas. And long distances to put your eye on to go straight to the other side.

    I discovered that going straight was very hard. A pros' ride is so technically advanced, that they are doing things without even noticing. A pro, to get straight to a jump is actually going through a series of teeny movements: If the horse is drifting left, the rider adds L leg until he passes through center, then the right leg adds pressure to move left etc. The series of L to rt to left. motions are so small, that we cannot see them. And the (pro) rider probably is unconsciously doing them. I,e. , to stay aimed at the center of the jump, the pro is constantly changing legs to maintain "straight". and Wallacht!!!!!!, the horse gets to the jump perfectly.

    Then the ammie gets on and things fall apart because the cue to change from l to
    center is different. The horse has not learned "straight" in the same way. He has learned move his body in one direction until he is told to move his body to the other.and find a spot in a litter of Dalmatians.

    An Ammie broke horse with cues both horse and rider understand, will get on well from the beginning.. If rider and horse use "ammie" cues that both of them know, then the pair is a good one. That is because an Ammie horse is trained to straighten when he stops feeling pressure on his side. It is a correction that requires one cue: Put your leg on to move to the center.Take leg off when in the center, aimed straight at the jump.

    No wonder my cute green horse and I were frustrated at first. I expected him to straighten when I removed pressure. He, OTOH, kept moving his body through "straight" until I told him to stop, by using the other leg.

    I realize this is a subtle difference that may "solve a problem that never existed", but I don't think so. When I figured out what leg aids he expected from me, we were great. But, to verify my new found theory, I went back to the ammie ride (horse goes straight when pressure is removed) but, once again we were talking different languages.

    Try it and see. Or when inquiring about a horse, ask who broke it or had ridden it for a long time. Based on my new theory, a pro trained horse might frustrate an ammie until they speak the same language. It might be a lovely horse, but "is considered to be not a good fit, only because he was taught different aids. This may be corrected is several rides -- surely within several weeks. But your trainer must be good enough to see the subtlety and understand why there is a disconnect.

    And the whole point of this new found knowledge is that it is hard/impossible to see perfect distances when you are approaching a jump on 2 planes:direct and laterally. Once horse and rider understand the other, it is easy to cure the lateral aspect of the approachand work together, in sinc, on one plane


    Not proofread. Must go feed
    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    The series of L to rt to left. motions are so small, that we cannot see them. And the (pro) rider probably is unconsciously doing them. I,e. , to stay aimed at the center of the jump, the pro is constantly changing legs to maintain "straight". and Wallacht!!!!!!, the horse gets to the jump perfectly.
    Fun fact: Wallach is German for gelding, and I totally read your post that way the first time through:
    Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    The series of L to rt to left. motions are so small, that we cannot see them. And the (pro) rider probably is unconsciously doing them. I,e. , to stay aimed at the center of the jump, the pro is constantly changing legs to maintain "straight". and Gelding!!!!!!, the horse gets to the jump perfectly.
    (You meant "voila" )

    Looking forward to seeing others' comments on the actual topic. I am not a pro, but think there is an added layer of complexity/subtlety when you account for the natural straightness and sensitivity of both horse and rider. I've been on sensitive supple horses (both green and not) and have felt the effects of what you're describing as the "pro" aids, and have been on more one-sided horses (green and not) where you almost couldn't actually push across the center and get that same "balanced between the legs" feel as on the supple horses. There's not really a push and release to stay in the center with them either - it's a constant balancing with weight aids plus pushing or supporting with the leg on the side with the tendency to drift.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm an adult Ammy and I broke my gelding. You just have to be patient and know that they don't really understand or have the strength for completely straight. So your legs and arms are playing "Pong" and eventually the horse picks it up and corrections come fewer and farther between. If you never think about straightness on an older horse, shame on you. I say that in a nice way. But the pro doesn't have a magic wand, just awarenes .
      http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fentre...24774504235082

      http://fentressfieldsequestriancenter.com/

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by mpsbarnmanager View Post
        I'm an adult Ammy and I broke my gelding. You just have to be patient and know that they don't really understand or have the strength for completely straight. So your legs and arms are playing "Pong" and eventually the horse picks it up and corrections come fewer and farther between. If you never think about straightness on an older horse, shame on you. I say that in a nice way. But the pro doesn't have a magic wand, just awarenes .
        Perhaps you misunderstood:The horses I have started all go through the squrmies and the pretend or real real "Duh, what?" My greenie to which I refer actually did dressage for 2 years, then had some enforced time off before he resurfaced as a hunter. To many, he is not green. But as to balance, changes, jumping, etc., he can pretend to be clueless.

        It is the manner of training 1. the more sophisticated, what I call: PRO ride. 2. The ones who stop moving laterally and continue forward at whatever angle the were on when pressure is removed. are the ammie rides. It has nothing to do with age of horse or ability of the rider.

        Petey, my currenrt "made" horse has been a winning event horse, with an Olypian, Dressage (Ch 1st level in NC), won a 5'6" 6 bar in jumpers and, many years ago, a trooper as my ammie horse. He knows any command asked of him. Most recently he won a big deal equitation class with a junior (I forget the name, but they gave sashes down to 8th place and rider won a halter). So, any aid, which is remotely accurate will be obeyed to perfection. He is "mah boy" and, although he is 17, he is going strong.. No, I do not worry about aids because he is so broke, he knows more than I do.

        PS: The WALLACHT comes from Corrine and her wonderful horse named Willem. He spoke broken English, since he was a Dutch horse by Birth. Words like Wallacht or carrotten, or "this it be good" among many others, were uttered by Willem during what I like to think was " the golden days of COTH.. AHHHHHHH, Nothing lasts forever. Anyone from that era, please say Hi. I wonder how many of us are still here
        "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

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        • #5
          I think of trying to keep a non-straight horse (green or otherwise) as trying to push (coax or direct) an amoeba down a track with chopsticks. If you poke them too hard and too much sideways with one pointy end they just bloop out over the other stick. But if you think of keeping all of the jelliness directed down the track ahead of you it is a bit easier to make the side to side adjustments while they can still be small corrections and also to feel where they are oozing out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post

            Perhaps you misunderstood:The horses I have started all go through the squrmies and the pretend or real real "Duh, what?" My greenie to which I refer actually did dressage for 2 years, then had some enforced time off before he resurfaced as a hunter. To many, he is not green. But as to balance, changes, jumping, etc., he can pretend to be clueless.

            It is the manner of training 1. the more sophisticated, what I call: PRO ride. 2. The ones who stop moving laterally and continue forward at whatever angle the were on when pressure is removed. are the ammie rides. It has nothing to do with age of horse or ability of the rider.

            Petey, my currenrt "made" horse has been a winning event horse, with an Olypian, Dressage (Ch 1st level in NC), won a 5'6" 6 bar in jumpers and, many years ago, a trooper as my ammie horse. He knows any command asked of him. Most recently he won a big deal equitation class with a junior (I forget the name, but they gave sashes down to 8th place and rider won a halter). So, any aid, which is remotely accurate will be obeyed to perfection. He is "mah boy" and, although he is 17, he is going strong.. No, I do not worry about aids because he is so broke, he knows more than I do.

            PS: The WALLACHT comes from Corrine and her wonderful horse named Willem. He spoke broken English, since he was a Dutch horse by Birth. Words like Wallacht or carrotten, or "this it be good" among many others, were uttered by Willem during what I like to think was " the golden days of COTH.. AHHHHHHH, Nothing lasts forever. Anyone from that era, please say Hi. I wonder how many of us are still here
            Hi. Lost my username in the transition but I’ve been here since those days. I still call them carrotten, and my husband bought me the Willem model ❤️

            Comment


            • #7
              As a poster who cried my way through Willem's loss, hi.

              As for "pro" v "ammie" rides, I can add my definition of pro v ammie, ie sensitive and not, or emotional and more...stable , or theatrics v taking a joke. I have one ISH from lines known to be "pro" rides and while he is "mah boy," he is emotional and sensitive. Think trot, and you're trotting; think canter and you better be ready... but if you stop actively riding he gets all unsure of himself and trouble ensues. Now I just picked up adorable and green medium pony mare. Said pony mare is pretty bomb proof and brave, and will happily make her own trail if left to her own devices, but ho boy you gotta be big on your cues. In all I find her to be a more physical ride and will sweat through my breeches on her.
              COTH's official mini-donk enabler

              "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

              Comment


              • #8
                Your equitation horse sounds absolutely scrumptious. And also a bit unicorn-y, like maybe there aren't a whole lot of horses out there that are going to live up to the impression he has made. #theydoexist

                I think I have to side with your greenie though, and suggest you consider the other side of this revelation - why aren't you finishing a lateral movement with a forward cue? Going sideways causes a lag in forward impulsion (physics). It's not so much that the trainer is "stopping the horse from moving right", she's sending him forward again (as you should do at the completion of any collection work) which - Voila! Gelding! Wallacht! - stops the right drift. Without that right/finishing leg there is no cue to go forward, and Mr. Greenie is not at the stage at which he can read minds. And he may never be, because that is the stuff of unicorns.

                Between leg & hand. Between both legs & both hands. This is a horse "on the aids". This revelation sounds less like "ammie" vs. "pro" and more like you unlocking a key to the puzzle
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                Comment


                • #9
                  With age comes wisdom but by the time you figure it out, your reflexes and body start to go.

                  Another great truth. And by age I don’t mean 40. I can say that being 6 months older then the OP here.. she’s doing a remarkable job.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The problem is simple. Your horse learned proper riding "grammar" with a classical pronunciation. Meanwhile your riding him with poor riding "grammar" with a deep South accent.

                    Going forward straight at the walk is far more difficult than at the trot. They have so much time between each step to do "things". It takes a very quick leg reaction from the rider adjusted to the sensitivity of that particular horse, while the hips still keep sending forward. And yes, the pros do it without as much thought, but they too had to learn somewhere.

                    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                    Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think you get pro rides and you get ammy rides and then you get horses that work in a consistent way. I always think my horses are happy in that my brother and I largely ride them and our basic foundations are the same (he has progressed well beyond me but our fundamentals are the same). We are speaking the same language. When someone new gets on they have generally come from my brothers program, so again same language.

                      When someone new hops on from outside our barn, different program, different language and the time to learn the new language varies.

                      When I got my current horse he came from a very different program and the basic language was the same but the finer points have taken time to learn.

                      I think this is what the OP is referring to. The greener horse has a more limited vocabulary and expects very specific communications in everything it does. The more experienced horse has an extensive vocabulary and can respond appropriately to most riders.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some riders do not know when they have their leg on.

                        eg. My mare was almost going over the logs around the arena.

                        Take your left leg off.

                        I don't have my left leg on.

                        My mare told me the leg was on.

                        I know you said you don't have your left leg on, but I want you to physically lift your left leg off her side.

                        Vinnie goes straight.
                        It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by dags View Post
                          Your equitation horse sounds absolutely scrumptious. And also a bit unicorn-y, like maybe there aren't a whole lot of horses out there that are going to live up to the impression he has made. #theydoexist

                          I think I have to side with your greenie though, and suggest you consider the other side of this revelation - why aren't you finishing a lateral movement with a forward cue? Going sideways causes a lag in forward impulsion (physics). It's not so much that the trainer is "stopping the horse from moving right", she's sending him forward again (as you should do at the completion of any collection work) which - Voila! Gelding! Wallacht! - stops the right drift. Without that right/finishing leg there is no cue to go forward, and Mr. Greenie is not at the stage at which he can read minds. And he may never be, because that is the stuff of unicorns.

                          Between leg & hand. Between both legs & both hands. This is a horse "on the aids". This revelation sounds less like "ammie" vs. "pro" and more like you unlocking a key to the puzzle
                          Very good points that I will make sure that I am using in my next ride.
                          "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
                            As a poster who cried my way through Willem's loss, hi.

                            As for "pro" v "ammie" rides, I can add my definition of pro v ammie, ie sensitive and not, or emotional and more...stable , or theatrics v taking a joke. I have one ISH from lines known to be "pro" rides and while he is "mah boy," he is emotional and sensitive. Think trot, and you're trotting; think canter and you better be ready... but if you stop actively riding he gets all unsure of himself and trouble ensues. Now I just picked up adorable and green medium pony mare. Said pony mare is pretty bomb proof and brave, and will happily make her ov.wn trail if left to her own devices, but ho boy you gotta be big on your cues. In all I find her to be a more physical ride and will sweat through my breeches on her.
                            Hi Jenners!!
                            I thought through several ' thi's v. 'that' names and came up with Pro, Av.mmie. You definitions are as good as any I could have used. others have come up with great "this" v "that' My basic point was that a disconnect can an does result in problems, not caused by anyone, but by different techniques. Yes, it is up to the trainer to spot the 'disconnect', but often horses are sold or rejected because people do not know, or ask why there is a problem if horse and rider do not get along. The convers is also true: the horse and rider have different ides of wanting v. hating their job. No amout of re training will make the team a good fit.

                            sorry for the issues with typing. This POS computer will not let me change mistakes. Any one with strong feelings about a great 12 thru 14" laptop under $800 , pls let me know
                            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ubu&Goober View Post
                              I think of trying to keep a non-straight horse (green or otherwise) as trying to push (coax or direct) an amoeba down a track with chopsticks. If you poke them too hard and too much sideways with one pointy end they just bloop out over the other stick. But if you think of keeping all of the jelliness directed down the track ahead of you it is a bit easier to make the side to side adjustments while they can still be small corrections and also to feel where they are oozing out.


                              I absolutely love this. I’m definitely struggling with my amoeba (might be the new nickname!) but loving every minute.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Any one with strong feelings about a great 12 thru 14" laptop under $800 , pls let me know
                                There are lots of good options under $500.

                                Go for a solid state hard drive, it solves lots of problems, especially boot up time.

                                Here's a great option and a recent purchase of mine -

                                https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

                                But you said 12" - 14", so go on Amazon and enter your price range, that size range and any other parameters that are important to you. Here's one with your size, well under $500, highly rated and with the solid state hard drive -

                                https://www.amazon.com/Dell-TFG4H-La...11&s=pc&sr=1-8
                                The plural of anecdote is not data.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Another COTH long-timer here! Yes, I miss Willem too - still remember the description of calling the feedstore, ordering alfalfa to be delivered, and specifying exactly where the bale should be left ... Among other deeds. Glad to hear that you have unlocked the secret. And don't forget, "sit up and add leg" always works in a pinch.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
                                    As a poster who cried my way through Willem's loss, hi..
                                    Me too! Been on here for eons.

                                    Libby
                                    Libby

                                    There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". - Dave Barry

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