Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

WWYD: trainer using spiked poles?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • findeight
    replied
    OK...when have I, or others on here who attempted to explain, ever recommended them to random posters complaining of problems hitting rails? And it’s not because it a dirty secret we want to protect. It’s because it’s like a loaded gun with no training in its use, much more harm then good. Especially with novice riders on average horses, Its not something to pick up on the Internet to solve problems best solved with better training, riding and maybe a horse better suited to the job.

    Silence on using these to solve rail problems is not because we want to keep them secret. It’s because they are not the answer and can cause far more harm then good. The Internet can help greatly or it can cause great harm so most us are careful about the options we advise.

    But if somebody asks about them or why they might be considered appropriate by some in specific situations , I’ll answer. Without judgement. So don’t judge me because I know what they are and when they might get used. Never used them. Used the heavy 4x4s or jumped big logs outside but not everybody has big logs or can handle and move the 4x4s and the plastic mats can be used on less ponderous poles.

    Still never used them, never saw them anywhere around my barns but somebody asked why not just use the big 4x4s.

    Leave a comment:


  • BITSA
    replied
    Originally posted by BritishEquestrian View Post

    I would say half-inch spikes (at an estimate) and will clarify they are plastic and not metal, but definitely for use of jumping & sharpening a horse up rather than anything else. They probably weren't sharp enough to physically cause damage, but would definitely scratch if hitting them hard.

    It's really interesting to hear peoples perspectives and opinions on 'harsher' training techniques in general and where you draw the line with stuff like this, as I know I'm guilty of treating my horses very much like pets and so to hear from others who have maybe trained or jumped at higher levels is super informative. Of course they are a quick fix and I'm assuming since they sell horses as well, its probably a nice sharpener before sales videos etc.

    I actually think it would hurt more to hit the corner of a 4x4 than the plastic carpet bumps. Neither of these in my mind are the same as poling (raising the pole as the horse jumps it), or nails/metal spikes.

    Leave a comment:


  • BITSA
    replied
    My old trainer used to have one skinny-jump pole wrapped in the plastic. I had the same thoughts as you and went and felt it. Yes it wouldnt feel good to hit, but no it wouldnt make a horse bleed, It was one jump that was used right before show season and I never saw a horse hit it (the hunters didn't train over the skinny). I didn't love it, but I didn't think it was like having nails or metal spikes either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Farosh
    replied
    Originally posted by StormyDay View Post

    I always wondered how people managed to pole horses more than once. My horses would catch onto that trick real fast. Seems like not a useful tactic
    Yeah same, although one I have right now who never ever stops at a jump unless someone is standing next to it is a pretty unique contortionist, he never touches anything. Makes me wonder if that’s why. Maybe it only needs to be done once.

    Leave a comment:


  • StormyDay
    replied
    Originally posted by Farosh View Post
    Idk as a trainer I think if I ended up with these poles by accident I would probably be very public about it so no one got the wrong idea.

    & just as a side note, while I’ve never witnessed “pole”ing of any sort in big show barns I’ve gotten a lot of nice fabulous horses from them who are suspiciously terrified of jumping if you are standing too close to the jump standards... a problem a horse I’ve personally trained has mysteriously never had.
    I always wondered how people managed to pole horses more than once. My horses would catch onto that trick real fast. Seems like not a useful tactic

    Leave a comment:


  • Farosh
    replied
    Idk as a trainer I think if I ended up with these poles by accident I would probably be very public about it so no one got the wrong idea.

    & just as a side note, while I’ve never witnessed “pole”ing of any sort in big show barns I’ve gotten a lot of nice fabulous horses from them who are suspiciously terrified of jumping if you are standing too close to the jump standards... a problem a horse I’ve personally trained has mysteriously never had.

    Leave a comment:


  • ComingAttraction
    replied
    Heck no, I’d be out of there. There is zero excuse for drugs or abuse. ZERO. Personally, id make sure I had pics of it too. Then I’d keep my mouth shut and move out. Years ago many things were common like smoking and drinking while pregnant, when we know better we do better. Period.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    I had to look up what the carpet runner spikes looked like, because what I had in my head didn't seem abusive enough for all of the comments against it.

    And now, seeing what they look like...I still feel like rubbing against one of those wouldn't hurt a horse much more than rubbing any number of cross country/fox hunting jumps. I.E., might be effective as an occasional reminder to the horse to pick legs up, but wouldn't do much if over used.

    I don't buy the "losing trust" thing either. Maybe for a green or insecure/sour/maxed out horse, but it wouldn't sour a strong, solidly trained jumper any more than cross country horses stop trusting their riders when they rub one of those stiff brush fences. I feel like it's another one of those things that can be considered abusive if used the wrong way, can be somewhat helpful if used correctly, not as effective as usual methods of proper training, but as we all know, horses are individuals and sometimes what works for 99 horses won't work for 1 and you need to be a little creative to help them understand. Would I use it? Probably not. Would I automatically leave a barn that I saw had one, but that I had never seen used, without at least asking about it? Nope.

    Leave a comment:


  • TooManyBays
    replied
    I have seen them used before, they are pretty common in hunter barns. I have never seen them used on a jumper before.
    They won’t work for a horse who is at the top of his scope or consistently smacks poles as a horse doing that is already feeling pain when they hit a pole. those carpet tacks aren’t gonna do anything.
    In my experience it is more for horses who rub jumps. In hunters, since that is a penalty, a trainer will use a carpet tack or office mat pole to encourage the horse to not skim the top of the jump.
    A less controversial way to get similar results is a jump pole covered in AstroTurf or a jump pole that is (or looks like) a log.
    In my opinion, these quick fixes last only a few jumps afterwards. They would have no lasting impact on a show and it is better to use other methods like grid training to encourage better form.

    Leave a comment:


  • Annandale
    replied
    Originally posted by dwpc View Post
    I think that whatever the tack strip pain may do to teach the horse to lift higher is probably lost in trust.
    Yes.

    Leave a comment:


  • dwpc
    replied
    An athlete may choose to endure training pain; a horse gets no choice. I think that whatever the tack strip pain may do to teach the horse to lift higher is probably lost in trust. I've handled spiked plastic mats; those points are painful at far less than the force of a horse's pastern.

    Leave a comment:


  • TKR
    replied
    I personally find it repulsive to use a form of force or pain to train. They are a shortcut and like a razor in a monkey's hands when used by those who have no empathy or then resort to more barbaric methods to get a result, which they rarely get. I'm not a big fan of draw reins or side reins unless used scrupulously as a training aid and not used to overbend a horse, particularly for a long time. To me, such methods are crutches which are forever necessary because the horse is not trained correctly - due to someone not wishing to take the time or lacking the skills. Horses are not relaxed and willing when force or pain is used and I prefer a horse that is learning and becomes willing and soft because the methods are correct. If I get off and the horse isn't more relaxed then I believe I have done something wrong and certainly not attained a result I wanted. You don't get a great result everyday, but you can back up and stop someplace where you feel the horse is not stressed. My beliefs won't change anyone, but it's just the way I feel about it. A happy horse is more important to me than a blue ribbon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    Yeah her point went way over your head. The point was if the OP came on here and said my horse always hits the rails and is lazy, no one (well maybe someone) would suggest a 4x4 or a tack rail. Those same people who are suggesting it has its uses, wouldn’t suggest it. They would say everything but. It’s still considered a dirty secret. Tucked away. “Only for certain special cases.” The same people saying that and who use things like that would never suggest it. That’s the point

    Leave a comment:


  • mmeqcenter
    replied
    Of course horses will be lazy sometimes. That doesn't mean employing a "tool" whose entire purpose is to cause pain is the answer. Jumping requires more than just scope, it also requires the right brain and work ethic from the horse. Barring any physical issue, regularly lazily dropping poles is a horse with a poor work ethic, or one uninterested in its job, or one who is not properly conditioned for what's being asked of it. If a horse is consistently lazily dropping rails, maybe it shouldn't be a jumper. Or maybe it should go down a level. Just because the horse is physically capable of doing a job and/or bred to the nines, it doesn't mean that job is the best choice for them.
    Last edited by mmeqcenter; Feb. 11, 2020, 07:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • OnDeck
    replied
    Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
    If a regular COTH person posts about a horse consistently hitting rails, someone who get roasted alive if they responded "have you considered poling him" or "stop by your office depot and look for the office mats with the 1/2" plastic spikes on the bottom". The understanding is that horses are by nature pretty darn honest and hardworking. If a horse is consistently rubbing rails there's probably something going on: pain, lameness, burned out, maxed out, discipline change needed, etc.

    To me it is less about whether a 1/2" plastic spike will inflict serious pain and more about, is this really what it takes to be at the top of your sport? At what point do you not flinch when a horse gives a good effort and cracks the edge of a 4x4? Do you just shrug and drag out a tack rail and think "this is what it takes to get a blue ribbon"?

    More than anything I'm taken aback by very reputable posters acting like this is a non-issue. It feels a bit like hearing a bunch of FEI dressage riders say "well sure, we use TWH training chains from time to time, it isn't like it is going to hurt them, but of course only behind closed doors".
    Are you suggesting there are no horses out there that will drop rails just because they are lazy or not careful? There absolutely are. They take down rails because they can. No one here is suggesting it as a fix to horses who are lame or scoped out.

    Whether or not you agree with tack rails is one thing, but suggesting that horses will never be lazy is entirely another.

    Leave a comment:


  • MaritimeH/J
    replied
    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
    Can I be ignorant for a second?

    First off, I've never even heard of these poles with carpet runners on them.

    That said, what is the fundamental difference between using a REALLY heavy rail (lots of trainer do that), or a 4x4 with barely rounded edges (a facebook "god" with the initials D.E. has many many 10' poles like this that are heavier than sin), and a pole with plastic spikes on it? The spikes will hurt (so will an ultra heavy rail, or one with an edge), but won't actually injure the horse (like a really heavy rail, or one with an edge).


    ETA: Wait wait. Are these plastic carpet things, or the metal ones? That would TOTALLY change my thought process, as the metal ones can actually do damage.
    I've cleaned blood off the legs of a 1.40m horse from the plastic spikes. Not gushing blood, but blood. Clipped legs can't take very much.

    Yes, I left the barn shortly thereafter. The spikes were part in parcel. They alone did not fully horrify me when I saw them first, but then when I had to clean up the one horse they were used on when I was working I got a little more adverse. Because it didn't do a damn thing to help or correct him. He was maxed out, and now had sore legs on top of it. I rationalized that at least they were not throwing poles into his legs at the time, but I can still picture the red flecks on his white socks. I was there not much longer and in that time, I saw several more shortcuts.

    Maybe in some cases it can be used strategically? But after my experience I think it's a pretty narrow maybe, and what else might they be willing to do.

    However, for the OP, some people are lazy, and maybe they havent removed them from the lot they bought yet. Thats a genuine possibility.

    Last edited by MaritimeH/J; Feb. 11, 2020, 12:34 PM. Reason: more info added

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Honestly.....a pole with the bumpy plastic on it, only used occasionally if at all...would bother me far less than a farm that regularly uses draw reins.....just because I’ve seen that bit of equipment abused far more. But they are tools...and ones that not everyone agrees with and certainly not a required tool for any farm. (There are none at my farm)

    You are there to learn. Make sure they don’t use it on your horse. But find out why this trainer uses them or has them. For what purpose....that is their system. Learning is about understanding people’s systems while you develop you own. There will be things you agree with and others you don’t....this doesn’t have to be a major drama. I worked at top SJ barns that had a pole or two like this...this was 30 years ago. For use on only certain lugs of horses and honestly, I never saw them used....they are not a very effective tool....and that is one reason most do not use them. You would see them used more often in free jumping situations more than when a rider was on board. But I would us this to expand your own knowledge base. It’s important to understand things even if you don’t plan on using them.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Feb. 12, 2020, 08:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GraceLikeRain
    replied

    If a regular COTH person posts about a horse consistently hitting rails, someone who get roasted alive if they responded "have you considered poling him" or "stop by your office depot and look for the office mats with the 1/2" plastic spikes on the bottom". The understanding is that horses are by nature pretty darn honest and hardworking. If a horse is consistently rubbing rails there's probably something going on: pain, lameness, burned out, maxed out, discipline change needed, etc.

    To me it is less about whether a 1/2" plastic spike will inflict serious pain and more about, is this really what it takes to be at the top of your sport? At what point do you not flinch when a horse gives a good effort and cracks the edge of a 4x4? Do you just shrug and drag out a tack rail and think "this is what it takes to get a blue ribbon"?

    More than anything I'm taken aback by very reputable posters acting like this is a non-issue. It feels a bit like hearing a bunch of FEI dressage riders say "well sure, we use TWH training chains from time to time, it isn't like it is going to hurt them, but of course only behind closed doors".

    Leave a comment:


  • Xctrygirl
    replied
    Originally posted by TKR View Post
    Reading some of the responses rationalizing and making excuses for their use is very sad and still a form of abuse. Maybe the horse you are using these harsh methods on just doesn't want to be a jumper or hunter. I don't care how
    they are bred - find another occupation for them that doesn't require such extreme methods for success. They are in our care, good or bad and I can't condone any method such as this for any reason. I'm sorry for those who do -- very revealing!
    Ok.... God help me for being the one to ask but...... if you consider these things abuse, can you expound on other things used in Hunter/Jumper/Eventing/Dressage training that qualifies as "abuse"?

    I am just a little surprised by the depth of your passion against plastic nubs. Metal tack rails I get, but this plastic stuff... I mean I just don't see it.

    Em

    Leave a comment:


  • TKR
    replied
    Reading some of the responses rationalizing and making excuses for their use is very sad and still a form of abuse. Maybe the horse you are using these harsh methods on just doesn't want to be a jumper or hunter. I don't care how
    they are bred - find another occupation for them that doesn't require such extreme methods for success. They are in our care, good or bad and I can't condone any method such as this for any reason. I'm sorry for those who do -- very revealing!

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X