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Warmblood Import Nightmare

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  • All I can think about is this poor horse on lockdown after how many weeks still?!? Someone needs to make a decision, now.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post
      All I can think about is this poor horse on lockdown after how many weeks still?!? Someone needs to make a decision, now.
      It’s certainly not ideal. But lots of horses end up on stall rest for months due to injuries or what have you. At least he gets out for hand walks every day, according to Facebook posts.

      As long as he’s still breathing, there’s a chance he could get out of there.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
        I suspect that the returned to Europe Plan B /"bottom level marketing" might not be an option here, as glanders is a potentially zoonotic disease, and it just isn't worth the risk.
        Realize that but brought that bottom level into the conversation to define the difference in attitudes between here and there. If returned, he would not have left the receiving facility. Don’t think some on here advocating for returning him quite understand they not only don’t want him back, even if they find somebody to accept his shipment, they will put him down on arrival as a risk without a second thought.



        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

          Right, of the CFTs. But the WB and ELISAs are nevertheless more specific.
          (I would actually want to know wtf was going on with that USDA antigen they tested. A sensitivity in the low-60s for a low-prevalence screening test is NOT acceptable. Both sensitivity and specificity should be above 90 to be highly credible).



          https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0214963

          In this paper, CFT vs WB specificity was 96.4% vs 99.4%, sensitivity 98% vs 96.8%. ELISAs were less specific than WB but more than CFT.

          A highly specific test for a disease/organism will pick up the disease, at the cost of popping some false positives. A highly sensitive one will correctly classify true negatives as negative, at the cost of popping some false negatives.
          Could you break this down for me a little more with regards to specific and sensitivity. I’m gathering from
          your link and what others have posted that the WB test has less risk of a false positive but is less sensitive and the CFT is more sensitive with a higher risk of sensitivity? Or did I get it backwards?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

            Could you break this down for me a little more with regards to specific and sensitivity. I’m gathering from
            your link and what others have posted that the WB test has less risk of a false positive but is less sensitive and the CFT is more sensitive with a higher risk of sensitivity? Or did I get it backwards?
            What's confusing you? The fact that I put them backwards?

            LOL yeah, I switched the explanations. It *should* read:

            ​​A highly sensitive test for a disease/organism will pick up the disease, at the cost of popping some false positives. A highly specific one will correctly classify true negatives as negative, at the cost of popping some false negatives.

            Sorry!

            When you're screening and absolutely can't afford to let a true positive slip past you, you want the most sensitive test you can find. You're gonna get some false positives with that, but at least you won't release any glanders horses onto the population (as false negatives).

            But your confirmatory should be highly specific - if the person/animal is true positive, a highly specific test should categorize them correctly.

            Not all testing has a confirmatory. Sometimes you just wait and repeat the first test.
            Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

              What's confusing you? The fact that I put them backwards?

              LOL yeah, I switched the explanations. It *should* read:

              ​​A highly sensitive test for a disease/organism will pick up the disease, at the cost of popping some false positives. A highly specific one will correctly classify true negatives as negative, at the cost of popping some false negatives.

              Sorry!

              When you're screening and absolutely can't afford to let a true positive slip past you, you want the most sensitive test you can find. You're gonna get some false positives with that, but at least you won't release any glanders horses onto the population (as false negatives).

              But your confirmatory should be highly specific - if the person/animal is true positive, a highly specific test should categorize them correctly.

              Not all testing has a confirmatory. Sometimes you just wait and repeat the first test.
              Ahhh thanks!!! I didn’t think you explained it backwards I thought I had gotten it backwards.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by findeight View Post

                Realize that but brought that bottom level into the conversation to define the difference in attitudes between here and there. If returned, he would not have left the receiving facility. Don’t think some on here advocating for returning him quite understand they not only don’t want him back, even if they find somebody to accept his shipment, they will put him down on arrival as a risk without a second thought.


                Your last few posts have been informative and excellent - thanks.

                I understand the point you are making about the likelihood he is put down upon upon arrival back in Europe... it makes complete sense to me.

                Honestly... with this many positive CFT results plus his minor symptoms and being held in quarantine for over 60 days... it seems inevitable that he is EITHER going to be put down here or there... unless they somehow find a way to continue to hold him in quarantine in hopes of a zero CFT (negative for glanders) given more time and additional tests.

                Perhaps if the trainer was more experienced with imports, and had stronger relationships with a specific dealer in Europe with whom they had done a high volume of business, shipping the horse back immediately might have been easier to figure out and pitch to the client.

                On the topic of putting the horse down and treating horses as livestock... Honestly... animals don’t have the same concept of time, hopes and dreams, etc as humans. In my opinion, if a horse is stall bound for 60 days and counting with no end in sight, in an odd limbo like this with a potentially VERY serious disease... and the stall bound situation involves no personalized, detailed daily care with respect to diet, grooming etc, like a committed owner or good boarding situation would typically provide (not intending a criticism of Jet Pets with that comment, but just saying quarantine is different than micromanaging a horse on stall rest when an attentive owner has immediate access)... in some ways I think putting him down is more humane and responsible and fair to the horse than dragging this situation out longer. Or shipping him back to Europe only to put him down when they land. But that’s me... I understand others may not share the same perspective.

                Comment


                • Maybe I missed a post somewhere, but who says the horse will definitely be euthanized upon arrival in Europe? europe will not euthanize because of a positive cft if wb is negative

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AppaloosaDressage View Post
                    Maybe I missed a post somewhere, but who says the horse will definitely be euthanized upon arrival in Europe? europe will not euthanize because of a positive cft if wb is negative
                    And at least one agent said they would take him!

                    Other agents chimed in to say they had been through this and lost money on other sales but shipped horse back to Europe ASAP on their dime and then they later made it back to the US to the buyer with clean tests. The loss one of them quoted was about 10k because horse had to fly back to Europe solo. Even if these buyers had paid that, they'd be way better off than they are now, and probably a lot better for the horse if he'd been able to be shipped before showing signs of illness.

                    Comment


                    • Sorry, another dumb question. If glanders is a bacterial infection, why can't it be treated successfully with antibiotics?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FatDinah View Post
                        Sorry, another dumb question. If glanders is a bacterial infection, why can't it be treated successfully with antibiotics?
                        I believe it’s because they are afraid he would still be a shedder of the disease. For instance, kids get strep throat and many are treated and fine, but some become carriers of the bacteria and will end up giving it to other children, even though they are symptom free and were given the proper antibiotics.

                        Have they tried shipping him to somewhere like Mexico or Brazil? Not ideal, and I know Shipping from Latin America can be even more of a pain quarantine wise, but at least they would get him out of 1k a day Quarantine?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

                          And at least one agent said they would take him!

                          Other agents chimed in to say they had been through this and lost money on other sales but shipped horse back to Europe ASAP on their dime and then they later made it back to the US to the buyer with clean tests. The loss one of them quoted was about 10k because horse had to fly back to Europe solo. Even if these buyers had paid that, they'd be way better off than they are now, and probably a lot better for the horse if he'd been able to be shipped before showing signs of illness.
                          See, other agents do that- this family needs to stop talking to their agents,all of them including the coach, and get an attorney. If you are reading- do that! I wonder if anything was written on this deal or if it all was on trust.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

                            Right, of the CFTs. But the WB and ELISAs are nevertheless more specific.
                            (I would actually want to know wtf was going on with that USDA antigen they tested. A sensitivity in the low-60s for a low-prevalence screening test is NOT acceptable. s.
                            I agree. When I read that abstract I was a little floored. I didnt explore too many more so not sure if that was just in that population/study. But that sensitivity is super low.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TooManyBays View Post

                              Have they tried shipping him to somewhere like Mexico or Brazil? Not ideal, and I know Shipping from Latin America can be even more of a pain quarantine wise, but at least they would get him out of 1k a day Quarantine?
                              Other countries would generally require that he have a valid health certificate dated within X number of days of import. The US would not be able to issue a health certificate and the original health certificate is too old for most countries to accept so sending the horse to another country for import probably isn't an option.

                              "Returned goods" are usually handled a bit differently by the original exporting country. Most exporting countries do not require a new health certificate for a returned horse that has been refused clearance, but they will generally require quarantine upon return. It might be possible to return him to the exporting country because he was refused clearance by the US and has not left quarantine.

                              (Yes, I know that "returned goods" is primarily a duty issue but most countries also have slightly relaxed requirements for the return of refused animals as long as the animal remained in quarantine while on hold.)

                              Comment


                              • I wish they would return him at this point. I know there is a chance he would be euthanized but I think it is pretty hopeless if he stays in US at this point.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by TooManyBays View Post


                                  Have they tried shipping him to somewhere like Mexico or Brazil? Not ideal, and I know Shipping from Latin America can be even more of a pain quarantine wise, but at least they would get him out of 1k a day Quarantine?
                                  I think Mexico and Canada were ruled out early on.

                                  Comment


                                  • At this point, I suspect they are planning on/have already abandoned the horse, and will just now fight attempts by Jet Pets or whoever to collect what is owed.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by punchy View Post
                                      At this point, I suspect they are planning on/have already abandoned the horse, and will just now fight attempts by Jet Pets or whoever to collect what is owed.
                                      I agree. Facebook has also gone silent in terms of the trainer making public pleas for funds and pointing fingers.

                                      Honestly... if this is how the situation ends, it seems pretty obvious from an earlier comment that Jet Pets saw this as a distinct possibility very early on, hence their offer to have the horse signed over to them WEEKS ago.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by punchy View Post
                                        At this point, I suspect they are planning on/have already abandoned the horse, and will just now fight attempts by Jet Pets or whoever to collect what is owed.
                                        No updates here from OP or on the trainer FB page since the 17th. Does make me wonder...

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by punchy View Post
                                          At this point, I suspect they are planning on/have already abandoned the horse, and will just now fight attempts by Jet Pets or whoever to collect what is owed.
                                          Oh my lord I hope not! That’s horrible.

                                          Comment

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