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Warmblood Import Nightmare

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    Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post

    If you read what I said, I agree with you, they shouldn't just release the horse. I sure as heck dont want any horses here getting glanders.

    My point was, if the horse is sick (with glanders or something else), I would think that they would have had some kind of option for treating the horse. If it does have glanders, from what I understood, antibiotics might cure symptoms but the disease would still be present and presumably come up positive still (though I may very well be wrong). But if the whole thing was "he came up positive on this test that can have false positives, but he also has a fever so we are going to assume he has glanders and not bother trying to treat him"? Idk, that's weird to me.

    And not to mention, isn't glanders treatable anyways? I mean, could you not try treating it, give it some time if needed before testing so you don't get a false negative (if you even can with the test they used, sounds like it's more likely to show a false pos), and then release him? And if that isn't an option, then tell them straight up their options are euthanasia or sending the horse back, or to retest and wait for results which will take this specific amount of time then decide between the options if it's still positive, but they cannot under any circumstances let this horse anywhere in the US? Which may be what they did say, it just sounded to me like they were kind of vague about what could be done to the family.


    Thinking about it though...if they did say that the only choices were euthanasia or to send the horse back, but can't euthanize without the family's consent, EU wouldn't take the horse back, and THAT's why the horse has been stuck in limbo...that's a whole different story.

    I think I feel the worst for that poor horse. I don't think he is going to make it out of this situation.
    You dont treat for glanders in a non endemic country. They're euthanized or shipped out to somewhere positive. Treating can clear clinical signs but they can still have latent infections and shed bacteria. Kind of like hoof and mouth positives get euthanized.

    I believe the family was offered euthanasia or send back at the get go. It was deemed financially not feasible to send back based on the first post. So they continued to keep horse in quarantine and retest (again per the first post). I'm assuming they hoped it would test negative on the second test since the western blot was negative. Once you go down the rabbit hole you're throwing good money after bad when he continues to test positive.

    This link has the entire protocols used for testing for every disease they test for at quarantine.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...JDnsM9n-vMjcot

    Comment


      Originally posted by kmwines View Post

      You dont treat for glanders in a non endemic country. They're euthanized or shipped out to somewhere positive. Treating can clear clinical signs but they can still have latent infections and shed bacteria. Kind of like hoof and mouth positives get euthanized.

      I believe the family was offered euthanasia or send back at the get go. It was deemed financially not feasible to send back based on the first post. So they continued to keep horse in quarantine and retest (again per the first post). I'm assuming they hoped it would test negative on the second test since the western blot was negative. Once you go down the rabbit hole you're throwing good money after bad when he continues to test positive.

      This link has the entire protocols used for testing for every disease they test for at quarantine.

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...JDnsM9n-vMjcot
      Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

      After finding the trainer on FB and reading her posts and responses...I wouldn't be surprised if she was the one mostly handling the situation and recommending they keep trying. She doesn't come across as the brightest. I don't trust anyone that uses that many exclamation marks.

      Comment


        Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post

        And not to mention, isn't glanders treatable anyways? I mean, could you not try treating it, give it some time if needed before testing so you don't get a false negative (if you even can with the test they used, sounds like it's more likely to show a false pos), and then release him? And if that isn't an option, then tell them straight.

        No treatment. Per OIE. https://www.oie.int/en/animal-health...es/glanders/#F

        Comment


          Originally posted by kmwines View Post

          You dont treat for glanders in a non endemic country. They're euthanized or shipped out to somewhere positive. Treating can clear clinical signs but they can still have latent infections and shed bacteria. Kind of like hoof and mouth positives get euthanized.

          I believe the family was offered euthanasia or send back at the get go. It was deemed financially not feasible to send back based on the first post. So they continued to keep horse in quarantine and retest (again per the first post). I'm assuming they hoped it would test negative on the second test since the western blot was negative. Once you go down the rabbit hole you're throwing good money after bad when he continues to test positive.
          Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying.

          After reading the trainer's posts on facebook, I wouldn't be surprised to hear she was the one mostly calling the shots and recommending they keep trying. She doesn't come across as the brightest. I don't trust anyone who uses that many exclamation marks.

          Comment


            It appears from skimming the EC regulations that reimporting the animal with a glanders positive is not going to be allowed. While there have been cases that reemerged in Europe, they don't want it there either. Just because the USDA gave them the option to ship the horse back doesn't mean it was really feasible. And what about the logistics or putting a positive horse with a mandatory reportable disease on a plane. Any other horse in shipment would be considered a contact animal.

            From a purely financial standpoint, they would have been better off to send the horse to any agent that would agree to take the horse on and attempt to resell there or hold for possible reimport to USA. Maybe any of the agents involved in the trainer's 30+ imports since the seller didn't want the horse. Worst case they'd probably be out the same money they have spent on the current situation.

            But even if there was such an agent, would the EU have let the horse back in? I doubt it. You have to certify that the horse is coming from a place with no cases of the disease in the past 6 months, and the horse needs to be free of the disease to be allowed entry back into the EU. The only hope might be if at this point they consider a 1 score to be negative.

            Where did the horse get it? Who knows. But the USDA charts clearly show that even a score of 1 on the CFT with a negative WB isn't going to get the horse released.

            So, if they do an autopsy and can't find any lesions consistent with the disease, then what? Do they think they have a case against the government? I don't really see any liability for the destruction of the horse on the part of the USDA for following its established protocols even if the care and way things were handled could have been better.

            Comment


              Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post

              Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying.

              After reading the trainer's posts on facebook, I wouldn't be surprised to hear she was the one mostly calling the shots and recommending they keep trying. She doesn't come across as the brightest. I don't trust anyone who uses that many exclamation marks.
              Erm... the owner (mom of the girl the horse is for) commented in the trainer's post on FB so I went to her (mom's) FB. The exclamation marks... they are not limited to the trainer.

              Also, mom has apparently been both emailing and trying to tweet at President Trump about this vast injustice. I can't even.
              Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

              Comment


                Originally posted by findeight View Post

                Yeah, didn’t want speak up directly but...nobody personally involved has been on here and that trainer letter that was posted was...weird and rambling. We can’t really do anything about this except offer sympathy to the owners and recommend the OP here, who I assume is in close, daily personal contact with tthe owners to tell them to hire a lawyer and do as directed by said lawyer.
                They were advised to get a lawyer about 175 posts ago. It seems to me that some (trainer, maybe even OP?) believe that stirring up a social media frenzy will get this resolved. Lesson for all: imports can be tricky and go bad fast, and outrage from equestrian peers will not topple the USDA.

                Comment


                  Oh my, some of the comments on the trainer's facebook post are scary. Comparing this to the government killing kids who have a vaccine reaction.


                  On Facebook the trainer is saying they have an attorney.

                  Edit to add - They have started a go fund me too.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

                    Erm... the owner (mom of the girl the horse is for) commented in the trainer's post on FB so I went to her (mom's) FB. The exclamation marks... they are not limited to the trainer.

                    Also, mom has apparently been both emailing and trying to tweet at President Trump about this vast injustice. I can't even.
                    Oh god.... yep I’m starting to get a better picture of how this turned into such a mess.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by kmwines View Post

                      So the horse isnt sick but should still get antibiotics to treat some imaginary illness to pass a test? Or is the horse actually sick in which case there is a concern the test isnt a false positive?

                      As an owner you assume the price of quarantine and following the requirements that go along with it. There's a flowchart I posted above that goes over testing protocol. It's the USDA document easily googled. Why shouldn't the family foot the bill? Nobody is drawing anything out. You have to wait several days/week between tests.

                      The USDA vet could love this horse, this family, and probably feels absolutely broken up by this but he/she is not losing their job/license/reputation over it. If they release this horse without proper testing results and it infects other horses causing the US to lose its negative status hell will break loose.
                      Attorney Chapman Hopkins is the “go to guy” for this kind of thing and last year he told me he has never seen a true positive case of Glanders when the western blot came back negative.

                      Comment


                        What a mess. That dream has certainly become a nightmare, both financially and emotionally. My heart goes out to the family involved. I have a terrible vision of a family placing a mortgage on their home, or dipping into retirement or education funds to cover this. Poor horse, what impact upon him, both mental and physical? Poor kid, even if horse is released, the path to competition will be a long one.

                        That being said, I support the USDA. They have followed the current policy and procedure related to suspect Glanders. They have stuck to the process, and taken the stand that is expected of them in this situation. It is their job to draw the hard line, no matter what push back occurs, that is why they are there. Moving forward, I expect that policy and procedure will be reviewed to assure it reflects the best practice and is in keeping with current science.

                        In regards to limiting communication to one contact/spokesperson, I think is very reasonable. Imagine the challenges presented when a group of resourceful and assertive individuals start seeking information, wish to be "helpful" by citing the policy and procedure of another country, inform agents of a study they have read and wish to discuss. Fire will rain from the sky, should an agent misspeak, or utter one word out of place. Not saying this happened, but there is always the potential for the added stress of "I want you to know I am recording this conversation for later use by my lawyer". I have been on the receiving end during a somewhat similar, but unrelated situation. Multiple contacts each day, each requiring a lengthy, time consuming response where you can spend 30 minutes saying you have no new information to provide. Then, field multiple phone calls from other professionals the family has reached out to. Staff who tell you "dealing with them is above my pay grade, this one is yours". Oh, and don't forget, all other work demands are still there. I eventually learned. I found the best way to deal with these situations is to have the family choose one spokesperson, and schedule communication with that person each day. End those conversations with a closer similar to: "Let's talk again tomorrow at 10 a.m. I will call you to provide any updates, and will take your questions at that time".

                        Again, I feel deeply for both the family and the horse, but how would you like to be the USDA staffer?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Equkelly View Post

                          Oh god.... yep I’m starting to get a better picture of how this turned into such a mess.
                          Literally one of the mom's comments (when advised to contact Trump): "I have been sending emails daily & trying to send him tweets-something that I am very new to doing! I would love to be able to find a back door to get him a message"

                          Oh hey anyone by any chance got a direct backdoor to the *President of the United States*? I'd like to talk to him about a horse!

                          Holy moly.

                          I really do hope the test today is negative and the poor animal is released and has a nice life with Gabby, and this will someday be a good hair-raising tale to tell at horsey events. But honestly... holy moly.
                          Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by NotGrandPrixYet View Post
                            For those of you who are thinking about importing, you can get a short term, taylor-made policy that covers just anything at this company:

                            http://taylorharrisin.wpengine.com/?...d=207#section2
                            ....But make sure you ask questions first. Most equine agents/carriers offer a territorial extension/transit coverage that extends a normal USA horse mortality policy to cover a horse outside the US or Canada. Insurers do this all the time for newly purchased imports or US-based horses competing in Europe. However, most of these specifically exclude losses related to import rejection.

                            A few equine insurers additionally offer a "frustration of import/export" coverage that is designed specifically for the situation discussed in this thread. I tracked down wording from one insurer's version of this form, and it specifies the horse must have had the identical infectious disease tests on each side of the trip. I think I read earlier in this thread that the subject horse had different versions of the CFt test in Europe vs. USA. This potentially could have kept coverage from applying even if they had this type of insurance.

                            Comment


                              Now I'm curious to see this train wreck on FB. I'm not privy to the names of those involved but it definitely sounds like an interesting....conversation? being had.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

                                Literally one of the mom's comments (when advised to contact Trump): "I have been sending emails daily & trying to send him tweets-something that I am very new to doing! I would love to be able to find a back door to get him a message"

                                Oh hey anyone by any chance got a direct backdoor to the *President of the United States*? I'd like to talk to him about a horse!

                                Holy moly.

                                I really do hope the test today is negative and the poor animal is released and has a nice life with Gabby, and this will someday be a good hair-raising tale to tell at horsey events. But honestly... holy moly.
                                I want a back door the President of the United States. I have quite a few issues I would like to bring up . Why in the WORLD would the President be interested in an expensive imported horse and the USDA testing methods? Like really, I think he has more important matters on his plate at the moment.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

                                  Literally one of the mom's comments (when advised to contact Trump): "I have been sending emails daily & trying to send him tweets-something that I am very new to doing! I would love to be able to find a back door to get him a message"
                                  Oh dear lord.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post

                                    Like really, I think he has more important matters on his plate at the moment.
                                    Right?!

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Coanteen View Post

                                      Literally one of the mom's comments (when advised to contact Trump): "I have been sending emails daily & trying to send him tweets-something that I am very new to doing! I would love to be able to find a back door to get him a message"

                                      Oh hey anyone by any chance got a direct backdoor to the *President of the United States*? I'd like to talk to him about a horse!

                                      Holy moly.
                                      Ok that is... delusional. No wonder the USDA and Jetpets doesn’t want to work with these people anymore. This is obviously devastating but they need someone on their team to be rational and guide them through the decision making during this mess because mom and trainer are really not helping.

                                      Also I’m so thankful I left Facebook right now.

                                      Comment


                                        B/c I'm nosy AF can someone PM the name of the trainer?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Jo View Post
                                          B/c I'm nosy AF can someone PM the name of the trainer?
                                          It’s at the end of the train wreck of a letter OP shared in this thread...

                                          Comment

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