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Safesport - Aiding and Abetting

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    #41
    Originally posted by Sswor View Post

    I thought it was just Olympic sports. Or sport NGB's with a path to the Olympics. Pony club and camps? You sure? I thought there was talk that the grass roots organizations were not subject to Safe Sport.
    Pony Club's "Member Protection Training" (which is not a new requirement) is now SafeSport Training for 2020. It's required of all leadership so far, and you have to pay $20 for the privilege of taking it if you haven't already taken it through another organization.

    https://www.ponyclub.org/Volunteers/...rotection.aspx

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by Mango20 View Post

      Pony Club's "Member Protection Training" (which is not a new requirement) is now SafeSport Training for 2020. It's required of all leadership so far, and you have to pay $20 for the privilege of taking it if you haven't already taken it through another organization.

      https://www.ponyclub.org/Volunteers/...rotection.aspx
      Tangential, but this really ticked me off. I have a USE fan membership that was free which I was able to use to access the SafeSport training, but the idea that Pony Club thinks it is fine to add a $20 requirement for me to be able to volunteer for them really does not sit well.

      Back to the topic of this thread, I kind of hope someone will go forward with a GHM clinic just so we can watch how it all plays out with respect to aiding and abetting. I think some of the scenarios and what-ifs on this thread crossed the line from realistic possibilities to way out there - I think we need to see what actually happens. The realistic side of me thinks that in the end, there will be no spin off organization to compete with USE and that after a skirmish or two, GHM will just fade into retirement - but never into obscurity. But take that for exactly what it's worth - it's coming from someone whose pockets are nowhere deep enough to play in the same sandbox as all the ISWG crowd and who has no taste for reading all the ignorance being displayed on other social media platforms.

      Comment


        #43
        I don't think I would be alone in saying that I have felt some grief and disappointment that a brilliant equestrian whose knowledge and talent I long admired has been the subject of a Safe Sport ban. There is a loss here.

        Yet, I am very glad for the presence and action of Safe Sport, in particular the "aiding and abetting" part. Young equestrians should not be put in a position to choose whether or not to train with an exalted trainer at the price of being exposed to potential sexual exploitation. I think we already know that there are many people out there who would train with anyone--child molester, horse killer, whatever--if it would give them an advantage in the show ring. It's clear to me that for the good of our sport we need this outside help to keep our "inner circle" clean.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by banmharcach View Post
          A ban on being involved/training/coaching or simply being present at any shows/sponsored events etc by USEF will depend a lot on available staff to check the spectator crowds but if Safesport was primarily designed to protect youngsters then it would probably be easier to enforce a ban on all contact/clinics/lessons/coaching etc with under21s/25s or the like & penalize any persons/farms that facilitated any such contact.
          Why wouldn't it take one objecting person with a cellphone camera and a willingness to file a complaint with the USEF? It seems to me that this might work the way the ammy investigations get started. But boy-howdy the kind of evidence needed and evaluating that seems a lot simpler. You have proof that Persona Non Grata was on the show grounds during a show or you don't.

          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by Groom&Taxi View Post

            Tangential, but this really ticked me off. I have a USE fan membership that was free which I was able to use to access the SafeSport training, but the idea that Pony Club thinks it is fine to add a $20 requirement for me to be able to volunteer for them really does not sit well.

            Back to the topic of this thread, I kind of hope someone will go forward with a GHM clinic just so we can watch how it all plays out with respect to aiding and abetting. I think some of the scenarios and what-ifs on this thread crossed the line from realistic possibilities to way out there - I think we need to see what actually happens. The realistic side of me thinks that in the end, there will be no spin off organization to compete with USE and that after a skirmish or two, GHM will just fade into retirement - but never into obscurity. But take that for exactly what it's worth - it's coming from someone whose pockets are nowhere deep enough to play in the same sandbox as all the ISWG crowd and who has no taste for reading all the ignorance being displayed on other social media platforms.
            I’ll absolutely admit that the two hypothetical scenarios I wrote about concerning what might happen if Jane Doe BO kept on hosting GM clinics... in violation of the Safe Sport aiding and abetting provision are quite out there.

            But when analyzing the potential risks of s certain course of action, it’s useful to think about the PROBABILITY that various specific situations might go wrong, and then think about the SEVERITY of the consequences, if in fact they did play out that way.

            Assigning potential $ values to measure severity in this exercise, and % values to measure probability that something might go sideways in a specific way is quite useful.

            Soooo... even if we are only talking a 5% chance that violating Safe Spirt’s aiding and abetting provision. In order to host a clinic ends up with Jane Doe losing insurance coverage, or victims getting upset enough to sue USEF....

            Is that worth Jane Doe digging her heels in to stand with George, and possibly create a total clusterF?

            And just to be clear... the question really isn’t whether Jane Doe can comprehend the whole situation and think this through and choose wisely... the question is actually whether IF she does decide to host the clinic... does USEF decide to just nip this stupidity in the bud, and fine and suspend her, and all the clinic participants for a specific duration...

            I hope USEF analyzes this thoroughly, and IF people continue to be stuck on stupid, I Hope USEF starts handing sanctions.

            In my ipinion, that would be healthy for the sport.

            Comment


              #46
              It is not up to USEF. Safe Sport can censor Jane, all the attendees and the landowners themselves. They clearly retain this power in Rule 2 on Aiding and Abetting. The attendees would be on the SS list themselves very soon.

              Also the headlines would be "Entertainment executive and wife host sports event run by banned child molester at luxury private farm!" with a photograph of a tall fence you cannot see over and another of the rich owners at a Miramax party. Not a good look in the Age of Epstein.

              Maybe some people will try to have a secret event but why bother? This is not like the old rules where the banned trainer could still coach with many loopholes. They are not allowed coach. You are not allowed help them to coach. Very clear.

              Comment


                #47
                Guys...Guys...why don't you just let the man RETIRE!!! Good god. He's 81. He's had access to some good money training people and hasn't been paying the upkeep on any horses for a good stretch of time now. He probably got good royalties from his autobiography and a little cash from those damn dolls. I'd think he has a nest egg. It's well past time to move on and worship a new idol.

                Seriously. I'd love to see GHM stuck teaching up-down lessons or ringside yelling at kids in Troxel helmets on un-braided ponies in cross rail classes at D shows as much as the next person. But I think you're more likely to find him as a greeter at Walmart than taking that kind of blow to his ego.

                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Puffergrrl View Post
                  Guys...Guys...why don't you just let the man RETIRE!!! Good god. He's 81. He's had access to some good money training people and hasn't been paying the upkeep on any horses for a good stretch of time now. He probably got good royalties from his autobiography and a little cash from those damn dolls. I'd think he has a nest egg. It's well past time to move on and worship a new idol.

                  Seriously. I'd love to see GHM stuck teaching up-down lessons or ringside yelling at kids in Troxel helmets on un-braided ponies in cross rail classes at D shows as much as the next person. But I think you're more likely to find him as a greeter at Walmart than taking that kind of blow to his ego.
                  Original questions were not posed with regards to George.... it came from knowing that another sanctioned individual is actively participating in the sport with events held by associations and/or individuals affiliated with USEF and becoming aware of the aiding and abetting rule and wondering how exactly it is enforced. The timing was a coincidence and I believe it would be a lot harder for someone with a widely recognized name to continue in the sport than it is for those most people have no idea even exist.

                  Unfortunately, the reality is there are a number of trainers currently allowing someone (not very well known) who has been sanctioned to continue to be involved in the sport, and I am interested to see if there will be any actual repercussion because of it.
                  Last edited by equestrian_mom; Nov. 26, 2019, 12:22 AM.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by equestrian_mom View Post

                    Original questions were not posed with regards to George.... it came from knowing that another sanctioned individual is actively participating in the sport with events held by associations and/or individuals affiliated with USEF and becoming aware of the aiding and abetting rule and wondering how exactly it is enforced. The timing was a coincidence and I believe it would be a lot harder for someone with a widely recognized name to continue in the sport than it is for those most people have no idea even exist.

                    Unfortunately, the reality is there are a number of trainers currently allowing someone (not very well known) who has been sanctioned to continue to be involved in the sport, and I am interested to see if there will be any actual repercussion because of it.
                    It will require that someone reports it. If the code of Omerta holds the USEF might never find out.

                    I expect all USEF members are probably now duty bound to report such infractions so possibly OP if you know for sure the details on this you might be required to report it.

                    On the other hand if it's just second hand gossip all you can do is watch the drama unfold.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by equestrian_mom View Post

                      Original questions were not posed with regards to George.... it came from knowing that another sanctioned individual is actively participating in the sport with events held by associations and/or individuals affiliated with USEF and becoming aware of the aiding and abetting rule and wondering how exactly it is enforced. The timing was a coincidence and I believe it would be a lot harder for someone with a widely recognized name to continue in the sport than it is for those most people have no idea even exist.

                      Unfortunately, the reality is there are a number of trainers currently allowing someone (not very well known) who has been sanctioned to continue to be involved in the sport, and I am interested to see if there will be any actual repercussion because of it.
                      Ohhhhh...you mean like this upstanding citizen of the horse community https://texashorsedirectory.com/even...jumper-clinic/? Yeah, since he was banned back in the days of AHSA, I'm not sure what the rules were about interacting with members off show grounds. They're not the easiest to find. Clearly, USEF has either not had or not enforced these types of no-contact-with-members even outside of competition regulations prior to coming under the banner of Safe Sport. Barney Ward was banned and did just fine for himself too.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by equestrian_mom View Post

                        Original questions were not posed with regards to George.... it came from knowing that another sanctioned individual is actively participating in the sport with events held by associations and/or individuals affiliated with USEF and becoming aware of the aiding and abetting rule and wondering how exactly it is enforced. The timing was a coincidence and I believe it would be a lot harder for someone with a widely recognized name to continue in the sport than it is for those most people have no idea even exist.

                        Unfortunately, the reality is there are a number of trainers currently allowing someone (not very well known) who has been sanctioned to continue to be involved in the sport, and I am interested to see if there will be any actual repercussion because of it.
                        I think you should report to SS and we will see. It is anonymous now, remember, so there should be no repercussions to you as in the past.

                        Comment

                          Original Poster

                          #52
                          Originally posted by Puffergrrl View Post

                          Ohhhhh...you mean like this upstanding citizen of the horse community https://texashorsedirectory.com/even...jumper-clinic/? Yeah, since he was banned back in the days of AHSA, I'm not sure what the rules were about interacting with members off show grounds. They're not the easiest to find. Clearly, USEF has either not had or not enforced these types of no-contact-with-members even outside of competition regulations prior to coming under the banner of Safe Sport. Barney Ward was banned and did just fine for himself too.
                          I don't think this applies as he isn't sanctioned under SafeSport.

                          Does he have sanctions directly from USEF or banned from being a member? I am not familiar with USEF policy for the same situations.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by equestrian_mom View Post

                            I don't think this applies as he isn't sanctioned under SafeSport.

                            Does he have sanctions directly from USEF or banned from being a member? I am not familiar with USEF policy for the same situations.
                            PV has been banned for ages and doesn’t participate in USEF sanctioned events. He does not come on the show grounds, he does not sign as trainer, he plays by the rules of his suspension. The fact that he still has clients is mind boggling but he is also proof that being banned by the USEF or safe sport has no impact on ones ability to continue holding clinics, running a barn and training riders. They just can’t do so under the auspices of the USEF or on property owned or leased by the USEF. Tom Navarro is another person who still runs a barn and coaches, Mitch Steege is another. Both banned by Safe Sport.

                            Yes a person who aided and abetted the deaths of horses is following the rules of his suspension. Yes, horse people don’t care that he was involved in the death of horses for insurance money because that $0.50 ribbon is more important.

                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #54
                              Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                              PV has been banned for ages and doesn’t participate in USEF sanctioned events. He does not come on the show grounds, he does not sign as trainer, he plays by the rules of his suspension. The fact that he still has clients is mind boggling but he is also proof that being banned by the USEF or safe sport has no impact on ones ability to continue holding clinics, running a barn and training riders. They just can’t do so under the auspices of the USEF or on property owned or leased by the USEF. Tom Navarro is another person who still runs a barn and coaches, Mitch Steege is another. Both banned by Safe Sport.

                              Yes a person who aided and abetted the deaths of horses is following the rules of his suspension. Yes, horse people don’t care that he was involved in the death of horses for insurance money because that $0.50 ribbon is more important.
                              So he is banned by USEF and not Safesport? Is that correct? Or is he just not a member because of his history?

                              I think the difference is that SafeSport has measures in place to try to enforce sanctions by having aiding and abetting "rules" to help further enforce their sanctions. Does USEF have the same sort of policy for individuals are are banned / sanctioned by USEF alone? PV is not on SafeSport list.

                              Does USEF have a policy that states members are not to involve USEF sanctioned individuals in their activities?
                              Last edited by equestrian_mom; Nov. 27, 2019, 12:13 PM.

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                                PV has been banned for ages and doesn’t participate in USEF sanctioned events. He does not come on the show grounds, he does not sign as trainer, he plays by the rules of his suspension. The fact that he still has clients is mind boggling but he is also proof that being banned by the USEF or safe sport has no impact on ones ability to continue holding clinics, running a barn and training riders. They just can’t do so under the auspices of the USEF or on property owned or leased by the USEF. Tom Navarro is another person who still runs a barn and coaches, Mitch Steege is another. Both banned by Safe Sport.

                                Yes a person who aided and abetted the deaths of horses is following the rules of his suspension. Yes, horse people don’t care that he was involved in the death of horses for insurance money because that $0.50 ribbon is more important.
                                So he is banned by USEF? I think the difference is that SafeSport has measures in place to try to enforce sanctions by having aiding and abetting "rules" to help further enforce their sanctions. Does USEF have the same sort of policy for individuals are are banned / sanctioned by USEF alone? Is PV still sanctioned by USEF? He is not on SafeSport list. Does USEF have a policy that states members are not to involve USEF sanctioned individuals in their activities?

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Paul Valliere is banned by USEF and not SafeSport. SafeSport has much more teeth and standing to enforce an aiding and abetting clause than USEF did/does around the horse killings cases. USEF only has authority over competitions, and it also has limitations around that as part of its role as the NGB. (NGBs for example are considered to have a conflict of interest in possibly blocking legitimate competitors from teams; actions like that by the track and field association is why there is a Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act.) SafeSport, which was directly created by Congress, was given more power to regulate behavior outside of competitions and is considered not to have that conflict.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    I could only find this old snippet regarding PV's AHSA suspension.

                                    "For his violation of the rules as charged, the committee determined pursuant to the provisions of Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 703.1 (b), (c) and (f), that effective immediately and until further notice, MR. VALLIERE is hereby expelled from membership in the AHSA and denied all the privileges of membership including the ability to hold or exercise office in the association, attend or participate in association meetings, hold license(s) as an AHSA or FEI official, compete in international competitions or receive AHSA automatic insurance coverages or participate in AHSA group insurance programs and is found not in good standing and he and all horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his are found not in good standing and are suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions and he is excluded from all competition grounds during Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant, or spectator."

                                    So it does seem that original AHSA and USEF bans likely only kept offenders off of show grounds, took away judging and board privileges, and prevented them from owning competing horses in any way (to the extent they can police it). It did not prevent them from training at their own facilities, traveling to other private facilities to train in non-competition settings, or owning/selling/trading horses that weren't actively showing.
                                    I also assume that the FEI equally enforced the entirety of the AHSA ban, though it is only specifically mentioned that banned persons cannot be FEI officials.

                                    But, yes, this is what was doled out to people that were banned prior to Safe Sport and technically convicted conspiracy and wire fraud. I'm not sure if they have banned anyone for sexual assault prior to Safe Sport.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Puffergrrl PV has been discussed here at length. I suggest you do a search.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by equestrian_mom View Post

                                        So he is banned by USEF and not Safesport? Is that correct? Or is he just not a member because of his history?

                                        I think the difference is that SafeSport has measures in place to try to enforce sanctions by having aiding and abetting "rules" to help further enforce their sanctions. Does USEF have the same sort of policy for individuals are are banned / sanctioned by USEF alone? PV is not on SafeSport list.

                                        Does USEF have a policy that states members are not to involve USEF sanctioned individuals in their activities?
                                        Safe Sport makes sure people don’t take advantage of minors. Safe sport has nothing to do with people who kill horses. USEF only bans people from sanctioned events or stepping foot on property owner or leased by them, ie show grounds.

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          I’m not sure why people need clarification on the aiding and abetting rules. I personally would not give my money to someone banned for having sex with kids.

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