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Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

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  • Pennywell Bay
    replied
    Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post
    Yes, thank you for the details Pennywell. Just goes to show.....it is definitely a good thing it was banned. It IS a behaviorally altering substance, despite what many of the people opposed to this ruling say.
    I do not think MPA is the devil nor people who have used it- (Just quoting you as a follow up, not saying that is your opinion).

    I do not think specifically it is killing horses with allergic reaction. There is so much more I'd have questions on in the allergic reaction deaths: Was the pharmacy used USP compliant? did the pharmacist/pharmacy have veterinary specific pharmacy training? (yes, it exists).

    To me it appears to be acting as a mimic drug and avoiding FDA GMPs for safety, effectiveness, purity, stability, potency and exposes horses to substances that could be contaminated or unstable. No horse is getting the exact same thing every time when it is compounded.

    Also- is it compounded according to the FDA CPG (compliance policy), where for example, compounding must be done on an individual patient basis and not in batches or in batch quantities not intended for a specific patient.


    And there are legitimate examples of necessary vet compounding. I am in no way crucifying vets. Most vets like their patients and want to help and probably seek out accredited PCAB pharmacies. My vet prescribed it, from a pharmacy she had used and she always gave her clients warnings. She is also a showing USEF member and educated other members/clients about the new policy on her page.

    Leave a comment:


  • WildLittleWren
    replied
    Yes, thank you for the details Pennywell. Just goes to show.....it is definitely a good thing it was banned. It IS a behaviorally altering substance, despite what many of the people opposed to this ruling say.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Thanks for the deets, Pennywell. Intriguing stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pennywell Bay
    replied
    Originally posted by charlieTBD View Post
    There are more and more news stories about people injured riding drugged horses. I know myself of one very nasty custody battle that might still make the news. I am amazed people risk their insurance saying no, we will not pay this way too. One day people will look back and say "what were they thinking?" about all this unqualified people giving substances to childs and amateurs horses
    First- I am against depo. In this specific discussion, vets are required to prescribe the MPA, though I know of non-vets who administer it. My point is we are not talking about unqualified people.

    I am glad depo is banned from competition, as it clearly violates the 410 rule. I am not a vet, I hold a different doctorate but my career is in pharmacology. One of the receptors it works on is the y-amniobutyric acid type A (GABA) receptor.

    I got slaughtered talking to trainers in real life when this was brought up before. Trainers had a fit. I have to look at who was on the investigative panel when this was brought up before. I assume a few clinical vets?

    BOREDOM ALERT
    -GABA- neurotransmitter that inhibits or slows brain function, relives anxiety, reduces stress, is naturally released at the end of the day

    -benzodiazepines (Valium, Xanax) act on some of the same receptors as GABA


    -No extensive studies have been done in horses and I doubt there ever will be those in depth studies.

    - there are tons, and I mean tons, of scientific, peer reviewed aritcles on NCBI PubMed. Why the USEF went so long is allowing it I have no idea.

    -Neurosteroids, of which MPA is, has been identified extensively as a potent positive modulator of the receptor- one of MPA's methods of action is receptor-mediated inhibition in the CNS. It impacts thalamus, cerebellum, hypocampus, amygdala and hypothalamus- all well studied in the rat. How is it not meant to affect behavior?

    -The hypothalamus in particular is involved in behaviors related to aggression, stress and sleep. It is connected directly to the autonomic nervous system. Biology refresher- the ANS receives info about the body and external environment and responds by stimulating body processes. One of those is preparing the body for stressful situations (fight or flight).


    People say "I didn't notice a difference in my mare, gelding etc". Right. Much as people have different tolerances for antidepressants and other medications- same is true for horses.


    It's banned as it should be. People will look for another compound to administer and slide through because there isn't a specific rule banning that substance.

    Maybe judging will change. Maybe horses will find more suitable careers. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Took long enough.


    Leave a comment:


  • charlieTBD
    replied
    There are more and more news stories about people injured riding drugged horses. I know myself of one very nasty custody battle that might still make the news. I am amazed people risk their insurance saying no, we will not pay this way too. One day people will look back and say "what were they thinking?" about all this unqualified people giving substances to childs and amateurs horses

    Leave a comment:


  • Peggy
    replied
    Originally posted by 2bayboys View Post

    Some of those now "unsuitable" horses will move into the market where the lack of a lead change is a career killer but the need for a cc of ace to get into the ring is merely a minor inconvenience. If you're in an area with a strong and competitive local show game, you'll see there are trainers making plenty of money using just this business model.
    But not in California where horses at non-USEF shows can be tested.

    Though they could still give depo assuming CA doesn’t change its rules.
    Last edited by Peggy; Dec. 1, 2019, 07:18 PM. Reason: Added second paragraph.

    Leave a comment:


  • 2bayboys
    replied
    Originally posted by wondrlnd77 View Post
    Forgive me if these topics have been covered earlier in thread... it’s possible that I’ve missed some...
    I am not naive- I come from the pre-depo days, and there has always been something in vogue to calm horses, from reserpine to Dex to Carolina Gold. I wonder now how this effects the market- how many ponies and Ammy horses just became unsuitable for their jobs?
    Some of those now "unsuitable" horses will move into the market where the lack of a lead change is a career killer but the need for a cc of ace to get into the ring is merely a minor inconvenience. If you're in an area with a strong and competitive local show game, you'll see there are trainers making plenty of money using just this business model.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darkwave
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

    I would imagine that comes only after one obtains a medical diagnosis and associated paperwork.
    Since there is no peer-reviewed documentation for ADHD in the performance horse, it is somewhat irrelevant.
    Tangent, but here is a link to the required paperwork for a human athlete to get a therapeutic use exemption for ADHD medication: https://www.usada.org/wp-content/upl...e_add-adhd.pdf

    As you can see, there are extensive requirements.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

    Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.
    I would imagine that comes only after one obtains a medical diagnosis and associated paperwork.
    Since there is no peer-reviewed documentation for ADHD in the performance horse, it is somewhat irrelevant.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheMoo
    replied
    Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

    Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.
    So what medical reason is given for geldings? A no kidding medical diagnosis? Adderall and Ritalin are prescribed for a no kidding medical issue. If athletes, and I believe two riders got sat down by the FEI for adderall in their system with zero medical documents on file, can be sanctioned for a lack of diagnosis I don’t get why it’s okay to do that to our horses. I feel the NCAA would do the same for those who share prescriptions.

    Leave a comment:


  • atl_hunter
    replied
    Originally posted by twelvebelles View Post
    If these were human athletes taking drugs to help them focus in training and competition, we would frown at that and call them cheaters. But somehow it is okay to do it to horses in order to achieve whatever personal goals we have? To me, that is not fair to the horses. There seem to be a lot of overhorsed amateurs out there with trainers who think it is just fine, and they are the ones who have led us to this outcome. If you aren’t a good enough rider to handle your undrugged horse, then get a better trainer to teach you, get an easier and maybe less athletic mount, or change your goals. Do not, however, drug the horse to make your personal goals achievable.
    Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.

    Leave a comment:


  • mvp
    replied
    Oh, and a PS. I think I just read some Science that explained how Depo-Provera is one of those (synthetic) hormones that does cross the blood/brain barrier and attaches to GABA receptors. I believe that is the same way Xanax works. And after those few details, we are above my pay grade. But I did read some actual Science to this effect. I think it was in the USEF's announcement about the ban. Look there first if you want to check my reporting on the physiological stuff.

    So srsly, folks, do not tell me that you feel entitled to show your horse on Xanax and call that "not performance enhancing" for your hunter when you sing the praises of Xanax for calming your showing nerves.

    Leave a comment:


  • hoopoe
    replied
    Originally posted by atl_hunter View Post

    Using that logic, anyone giving their horse a standard vaccine is also drugging their horse, since the FDA classifies vaccines as drugs. So, yeah, I drug my horse!! As I should. Whoo hoo!!
    they classify them as drugs to sort them from devices for regulatory and inspection rules and regulations

    Leave a comment:


  • mvp
    replied
    Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

    Peace. We are on the same side.
    I know. I'm writing only because so much of illegal drugging is forwarded by imprecise language and thinking. It doesn't even serve our side to point out that a whole bunch of rank-and-file horse trainers are honest; that billionaires, too, have to ride without stirrups in November; to point out that better turn out at shows can be solved by buying a $15M farm in Wellington so your horses can Netflix and chill while on the circuit.

    And the looseness in the discussion of drugs! Conflating vaccinations with Bute with Depo-Provera; arguing that if humans feel entitled to their ibuprofen, wine and Xanax, then their horses should get to have that, too; to completely disregarding the part of the D & M rules about anything given with the intent to enhance performance (and now we'll get confused again about bute and Xanax) and asking only whether or not the substance "will test."

    Seriously, I think people who want to cheat are getting a ton of mileage about of being intellectually lazy. I think it might be on purpose. Maybe it comes from non-horsey clients. Either way, not understanding the broad cultural commitment to not understanding D & M rules puts good, careful and knowledgable horsemen in a bind. So it actually serves the honest, not BNT-cum-vet trainer to be very rigorous in thinking about all this. There may not be anyone else who will bother and thereby advocate for the horses. I fear we are in a shrinking minority.

    Leave a comment:


  • twelvebelles
    replied
    If these were human athletes taking drugs to help them focus in training and competition, we would frown at that and call them cheaters. But somehow it is okay to do it to horses in order to achieve whatever personal goals we have? To me, that is not fair to the horses. There seem to be a lot of overhorsed amateurs out there with trainers who think it is just fine, and they are the ones who have led us to this outcome. If you aren’t a good enough rider to handle your undrugged horse, then get a better trainer to teach you, get an easier and maybe less athletic mount, or change your goals. Do not, however, drug the horse to make your personal goals achievable.

    Leave a comment:


  • snaffle635
    replied
    Great article discussing some of the issues I've been struggling to understand. For example, why is it ok to manage a mare's behavior with Regumate, but it's not ok to manage a gelding's behavior with drugs? Why isn't castration prohibited as its main purpose is to change a stallion's behavior?

    I found some answers to those questions here:

    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...-and-regu-mate

    Turns out these decisions are made by balancing the idea of fair competition with protecting the best interests of our horses.

    I thought USEF was disallowing MPA based on the fair competition provision, but in further thinking about it and re-reading the press release, it appears to be disallowed as being in the best interest of the horses.

    Leave a comment:


  • kirbydog
    replied
    Originally posted by mvp View Post

    A second person to miss the point.

    No, I didn't say only millionaires and billionaires are winning.

    If you'll kindly reread my post and follow along the post to which I was responding, I think you'll see what I was saying.

    The short synopsis is that I was responding to someone who supported the idea that it would be "business as usual"-- no need to think the breeding or importing market would change because folks can rent paddocks at the big shows, buy farms near them (e.g. Wellington, I suppose) and kids in the Big Eq world can ride a little more spice because they have done GPs anyway.

    All of that sounded great, but superlatively expensive and so it would logically follow that "nothing needs to change" for the tax bracket who can afford that. And-- as you pointed out and so did I-- that's not a large proportion of the showing world.

    You can read the rest of my post if you are interested.
    Peace. We are on the same side.

    Leave a comment:


  • mvp
    replied
    Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

    Are you saying only billionaires and millionaires are winning? I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
    I, and many of my colleagues, have shown at a pretty high level, with great success for many years without the use of calming/sedative agents. We win at good shows. A lot.

    My clients run from comfortably middle class to uber wealthy. I take the time, as much as it takes, to find an appropriate horse, within the budget. Its hard sometimes, and expectations must be tempered, but it can be done.

    The horses themselves must be allowed to be who they are. To spicey? More flatwork in the morning. Still too spicey? Become a jumper. Cant stay competitive at 3'6? Win at 3' . With hard work, thoughtfulness, and horsemanship, a talented horse can find its place in the showring, even if he/she can be difficult, it all just takes time.

    I agree that the western pleasure horses, as well as the halter horses look lame and, well freakish to my eye

    Are there super wealthy people showing hunters? Of course! But the larger body of competitors are hard working, horse loving people who show because they love it. It's not just about ribbons for mist of them. Are there spoiled asshats who want to win st all costs? Yes, in every aspect of every Equine (or other) sport.

    FWIW, I have been sent horses, or had them come into my program the need, ahem....help. MDA worried me, as I really dont like needles, it's very viscous and gave them a sore neck. The mares went on regumate, the boys got their s**t together through training. The ones that I was told wanted PP, same thing. And that stuff is gross....it stinks like rotten turkey, and frankly I dont think it did anything, waste of $25
    A second person to miss the point.

    No, I didn't say only millionaires and billionaires are winning.

    If you'll kindly reread my post and follow along the post to which I was responding, I think you'll see what I was saying.

    The short synopsis is that I was responding to someone who supported the idea that it would be "business as usual"-- no need to think the breeding or importing market would change because folks can rent paddocks at the big shows, buy farms near them (e.g. Wellington, I suppose) and kids in the Big Eq world can ride a little more spice because they have done GPs anyway.

    All of that sounded great, but superlatively expensive and so it would logically follow that "nothing needs to change" for the tax bracket who can afford that. And-- as you pointed out and so did I-- that's not a large proportion of the showing world.

    You can read the rest of my post if you are interested.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanteringCarrot
    replied
    Originally posted by findeight View Post




    IME the less “monied” clients are just as bad as the rich ones and maybe worse as they are more likely to have a less suitable horse to fit their lesser budget and try to push a less successful trainer that cannot afford to lose their business into caving to their demands for a calming substance. Most trainers don’t support any of this but need to support themselves, it’s not a simple decision. Big reason USEF stepped in to get some hard statistics and make the decision.

    Dont think many knowingly give anything harmful but get so wrapped up in doing something, anything, to solve performance problems in the horse and placate it’s owner/rider, they forget the welfare of the horse. More concerned with solving their problems then facing any truths about themselves and what they are doing. Marketing efforts for things like PP and peer pressure to use other substances create dependency in the owner/rider to use something, anything, to fix the horse so they can get on it.

    What really is sick is the number of young riders who won’t get on unless the horse gets whatever...that’s our next generation of owners and riders.
    This last bit, I know a rider like this. I can't wrap my head around it. If I have to literally watch to make sure my horse received a proper dose or ate every last bit of its calming supplements before I ride, it's not the horse for me. Maybe not even the sport for me. Maybe it's harmless to the animal, maybe not. This riders horse is practically dead, but if he even so much as flicks an ear, shakes his head, looks at something, or you know... Acts like a living thing, it's too much. This shouldn't be what this sport is about.

    Leave a comment:


  • findeight
    replied
    Now, now RAyers, lets not muddy the discussion of how one is supposed to get ones horse into the show ring now Depo is banned with facts...God forbid we put the attention on horse welfare instead of solve the what am I going to do with my horse now issues.

    Leave a comment:

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