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Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

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    #61
    Originally posted by EmilyM View Post

    where did i say drug the horses? I said, i hope we don't see kicking out and twirling. Maybe my comment was meant to be, i hope that people who are taking this short cut now, don't get me killed in the warm up without it. But it's the COTH so you know, everyone is a mind reader and expert and can tell me how to train my horses that they've never met.

    carry on.


    If your horse and yourself are going to be in that much danger without depo (both/either your horse on depo or the competitors around you on depo), the answer is simple.

    Don't go.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
      Um, yes, there are tons of hunters/eq horses for sale in Europe. People have learned to cash in and cater to that market. That's not new. What I meant was hunter/eq competitions. As in the discipline. As in recognized competitions. It's not as big in Europe. I'm not talking horse sales. There is no competitive hunter/eq scene here. Or if there is, I am unaware.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post

        Um, yes, there are tons of hunters/eq horses for sale in Europe. People have learned to cash in and cater to that market. That's not new. What I meant was hunter/eq competitions. As in the discipline. As in recognized competitions. It's not as big in Europe. I'm not talking horse sales. There is no competitive hunter/eq scene here. Or if there is, I am unaware.
        There have been “style classes” in France for years now. And I believe there was some kind of show hunter championship type event in Holland this year at least.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

          There have been “style classes” in France for years now. And I believe there was some kind of show hunter championship type event in Holland this year at least.
          Yes, we have style classes here too. I didn't think of that. I suppose they're similar. But people ride in these classes on their jumpers usually and maybe a bit more "spice" is tolerated. It's been awhile since I've watched a class, and I don't compete over fences at the moment/it's been a few years. I might be living under my Dressage rock and not crawling out enough! I am just under the (possibly ignorant) impression that hunters/eq is bigger in America

          Comment


            #65
            French Amateur Championship; https://youtu.be/KOLIpD2jgxY

            https://youtu.be/3cULZxKJwfw

            https://youtu.be/lL03Lz-2ElY

            https://youtu.be/3gVnTbscOgg


            Holland; https://www.facebook.com/HunterJumperEquitationHolland/

            And many many more 😁
            ... _. ._ .._. .._

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by Satin Filly View Post
              AGREE.

              Do people forget that most horses need be able to earn their keep in some manner in order to be useful. What happens to useless horses? I don’t know what Tabulah Rashah’s discipline is (I would guess endurance), but implementing such strict limitations for a massive amount of animals would be eliminating a lot of horses from the sport.
              I’m not saying it’s okay to allow lame horses to compete, but I am saying it’s NOT good for the horse to ban everything that helps keep a horse comfortable and useful.
              I am all about welfare and putting the horse first, so let’s do the HORSES a favor by not going to the complete other end of the spectrum. There is ABSOLUTELY a middle ground here
              While, yes, I do compete in endurance, CTR is specifically the competition I'm talking about here (ECTRA rules). Endurance is a bit more of a middle ground as far a what is allowed.

              One big thing that I think competing within the CTR's set of rules does is make you a better horseman. It's become so common place to be like Dobbin is a bit stiff, give him some bute rather than Dobbin is a bit stiff, find out why this is happening and what you can do to fix it. And it's not that you can't give Dobbin bute, it's that you can't compete on it. It also forces you to learn your horse in and out- to the point where I know things like where my horse's heart rate will be depending on what gait and what footing she is traveling through. I hardly think that rules changes that make you learn more about how to do better for your horse are a bad thing, nor will they result in a giant march of horses to the sale barn.
              Last edited by tabula rashah; Nov. 14, 2019, 01:09 PM.
              No mourners, no funerals

              Comment


                #67
                Cool, thanks.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by x View Post
                  I am wondering if there are specific breeds of horses that end up on depo more than others. It seems to be more common in the hunter world, and therefore, is it warmbloods that it is more common for? If it is, are we breeding something into them that is making them less manageable/rideable?
                  A lot of these show horses coming over from Europe are cut late and therefore act studish.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by mh97 View Post

                    A lot of these show horses coming over from Europe are cut late and therefore act studish.
                    There seems to be "Stallion Paranoia" in the US. Lack of/poor training and horsemanship is a more likely culprit.
                    ... _. ._ .._. .._

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Seems like no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground. I’m split down the middle on this. I believe unequivocally that horse welfare should always come first. So if depo has been proven to be dangerous, yes it should be banned. However, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection—be it depo, banamine, Ace or anything else.

                      All those who are screaming that it’s a sedative and those who use it should “just learn to deal with it,” well, there is NO concrete evidence that it acts as a sedative—the studies that showed it had an effect on GABA receptors were done on other species, not horses. Can any of you honestly tell me a horse given Ace and a horse given Depo act the same? They don’t, not even close.

                      Again, I think we need to put the horses first and it should be banned if it’s truly dangerous. But everyone on here yelling from their moral high ground about how anyone using depo is drugging their horse and should learn to ride, is making me roll my eyes a bit.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Equibrit View Post

                        There seems to be "Stallion Paranoia" in the US. Lack of/poor training and horsemanship is a more likely culprit.
                        I think that this may be a thing. That and the definition of "studish" as sometimes it is just straight up bad behavior.


                        Originally posted by mh97 View Post
                        Seems like no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground. I’m split down the middle on this. I believe unequivocally that horse welfare should always come first. So if depo has been proven to be dangerous, yes it should be banned. However, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection—be it depo, banamine, Ace or anything else.

                        All those who are screaming that it’s a sedative and those who use it should “just learn to deal with it,” well, there is NO concrete evidence that it acts as a sedative—the studies that showed it had an effect on GABA receptors were done on other species, not horses. Can any of you honestly tell me a horse given Ace and a horse given Depo act the same? They don’t, not even close.

                        Again, I think we need to put the horses first and it should be banned if it’s truly dangerous. But everyone on here yelling from their moral high ground about how anyone using depo is drugging their horse and should learn to ride, is making me roll my eyes a bit.
                        It's not so black and white, I think. So, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection, yes, but is it far more likely with Depo? If odds are much higher with Depo, then I can see the motive toward a ban for that reason.

                        I haven't looked into concrete evidence that Depo acts as a sedative and I've obly heard anecdotal accounts. However, saying a horse given Ace and one given Depo don't act the same isn't a conclusive argument in itself. There are different "levels" of sedation, in my opinion. Some take the edge of, some make a horse straight up dopey, some knock them out.

                        I think I've just been fortunate in my equine endeavors that I've never needed much drug or Depo intervention. I've worked with and ridden stallions, geldings, and mares of varying ages. Or I just matched myself well with the horses I chose. I can think of one gelding that I owned that may have been easier with chemical intervention, but I sold him to a pro that was more capable. But those are my personal choices.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post

                          It's not so black and white, I think. So, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection, yes, but is it far more likely with Depo? If odds are much higher with Depo, then I can see the motive toward a ban for that reason.

                          I haven't looked into concrete evidence that Depo acts as a sedative and I've obly heard anecdotal accounts. However, saying a horse given Ace and one given Depo don't act the same isn't a conclusive argument in itself. There are different "levels" of sedation, in my opinion. Some take the edge of, some make a horse straight up dopey, some knock them out.

                          I think I've just been fortunate in my equine endeavors that I've never needed much drug or Depo intervention. I've worked with and ridden stallions, geldings, and mares of varying ages. Or I just matched myself well with the horses I chose. I can think of one gelding that I owned that may have been easier with chemical intervention, but I sold him to a pro that was more capable. But those are my personal choices.
                          I very much agree with the most of this. My post was more in response to those (not just on this thread—in general as well) who are acting like a shot of depo is the same as injecting a horse with Ace. I don’t think that is conducive of a productive discussion on the topic.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Equibrit View Post

                            There seems to be "Stallion Paranoia" in the US. Lack of/poor training and horsemanship is a more likely culprit.
                            Um. I have been doing horses for decades. My latest horse (from Europe and most likely cut late due to his breeding) falls in love with any mare that walks by his stall (does not drop down..just whinnys non stop to her), goes through the stall door (if possible) to get at a gelding, jumps turnout fencing to get at any mares close by and one time ‘attacked’ himself when I turned him out in an indoor ring that had mirrors (plain old frightening). Now that I have owned him for a few years he has calmed down a tad and I have learned his ‘buttons’.

                            While he was on depo for the first year I had him to see if that helped his behavior....it helped a bit, but he is off it. But please don’t imply that it is due to lack of training. Just like some people need a glass of wine, a beer, a drink or a cup of coffee.....

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post

                              I'm just really skeptical that a rub or scrape requiring vaseline (per your own example) is equivalent to "cannot stay sound."
                              Not neccesarily. If girth/tack rubs are an issue, check the fit, try a different girth, etc. A scrape--if it's due to interference, look at your trim/shoeing/boots, or look at fitness level--a tired horse is more likely to interfere.

                              These things alone don't = unsound, but they are issues that will put a horse lower on the score card.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Elouise View Post

                                Um. I have been doing horses for decades. My latest horse (from Europe and most likely cut late due to his breeding) falls in love with any mare that walks by his stall (does not drop down..just whinnys non stop to her), goes through the stall door (if possible) to get at a gelding, jumps turnout fencing to get at any mares close by and one time ‘attacked’ himself when I turned him out in an indoor ring that had mirrors (plain old frightening). Now that I have owned him for a few years he has calmed down a tad and I have learned his ‘buttons’.

                                While he was on depo for the first year I had him to see if that helped his behavior....it helped a bit, but he is off it. But please don’t imply that it is due to lack of training. Just like some people need a glass of wine, a beer, a drink or a cup of coffee.....
                                I have owned plenty of difficult, whacked out horses in my day. I completely understand, as I was taxing every ounce of my self control last night as I was feeding my horses and one of my idiots was losing her marbles over seemingly nothing, as she is prone to do.

                                I'm curious to know the exact percentage of horses on depo, specifically in the H/J world. From my perspective, the number seems to be significant. Maybe my perspective is skewed.

                                I also completely understand feeling frustrated with the "high and mighty" crowd. These days, I spend more time in racing than the hunters of my youth. Don't even get me started on the flack we receive. It's really frustrating when people make snap judgements out of ignorance.

                                But going back to the depo and my perception... it seems like its use has sky rocketed in the past couple decades in many disciplines. If that many horses suddenly "need" it, even if it's just to deal with basic horsey things like turnout and stable life, then we need to re-evaluate our system. I feel this way about most all pharmaceuticals, regardless of the discipline. That doesn't mean I feel like individual posters are in the "wrong" for using depo... but man, this many horses shouldn't need it to function.
                                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by mh97 View Post
                                  Seems like no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground. I’m split down the middle on this. I believe unequivocally that horse welfare should always come first. So if depo has been proven to be dangerous, yes it should be banned. However, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection—be it depo, banamine, Ace or anything else.

                                  All those who are screaming that it’s a sedative and those who use it should “just learn to deal with it,” well, there is NO concrete evidence that it acts as a sedative—the studies that showed it had an effect on GABA receptors were done on other species, not horses. Can any of you honestly tell me a horse given Ace and a horse given Depo act the same? They don’t, not even close.

                                  Again, I think we need to put the horses first and it should be banned if it’s truly dangerous. But everyone on here yelling from their moral high ground about how anyone using depo is drugging their horse and should learn to ride, is making me roll my eyes a bit.
                                  So you're setting the bar in the wrong place here, IMHO.

                                  Yes, every injection has some risk. Vaccines for example. But there's a clear benefit to the horse from the injection. And no one is thinking, I'll give my horse an extra flu shot before every show to help him be more quiet.

                                  A side effect rate for a product of clear medical benefit to the horse that is used always with the horse's interest at heart is much more acceptable than one that does not benefit the horse.

                                  Further, we get these bandwagon effects where Leading Trainer starts using a substance as part of their program... and whether it works or not, people take note and decide to try it themselves. "Can't hurt," they think, and may talk themselves into the idea that it works. So the situation is, if it works it's cheating, and if it doesn't it's just exposing horses to harm for no reason. And maybe you had a situation of 1% fatal side effects and 100 doses a year, the occasional sad thing, but not really noticeable. When that usage rate gets to 10,000 doses a year, suddenly you have 100 dead horses a year ... for no good reason.

                                  The people who popularized it are victims of their own success.

                                  I'm sure there are horses out there for whom it is medically appropriate, and I'm sorry they are caught up in it. But it's still the right thing to do when we start to see abuse of a substance like this. There's no question that the majority of use is inappropriate.

                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                                    I'm sure there are horses out there for whom it is medically appropriate, and I'm sorry they are caught up in it. But it's still the right thing to do when we start to see abuse of a substance like this. There's no question that the majority of use is inappropriate.
                                    This.

                                    There are definitely mares who benefit from Depo either year round or at the start of their cycles (my mare has an extremely hard and painful start to hers in March/early April) - but its use has gotten out of hand and therefore needs to be reigned in.

                                    It's sad that legitimate folks are getting caught in the crossfire, but we don't hold enough people accountable or to a high enough standard BEFORE things like this become an issue. We just keep turning a blind eye or repeating the same cycle of "what's the next quick miracle XYZ so I can win" instead of getting back to the horsemanship.

                                    This ruling might be a good thing in more ways than one. Maybe it'll start to change the overall mentality of what it means to get a horse show ring ready.


                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by mh97 View Post
                                      S
                                      All those who are screaming that it’s a sedative and those who use it should “just learn to deal with it,” well, there is NO concrete evidence that it acts as a sedative—the studies that showed it had an effect on GABA receptors were done on other species, not horses. Can any of you honestly tell me a horse given Ace and a horse given Depo act the same? They don’t, not even close.

                                      .
                                      It doesn't *matter* whether medoxyprogesterone is a sedative. Read the rule--bolding mine--

                                      "GR 410. 1.a
                                      Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony..."

                                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by mh97 View Post
                                        Seems like no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground. I’m split down the middle on this. I believe unequivocally that horse welfare should always come first. So if depo has been proven to be dangerous, yes it should be banned. However, anaphylaxis is a risk of ANY injection—be it depo, banamine, Ace or anything else.

                                        All those who are screaming that it’s a sedative and those who use it should “just learn to deal with it,” well, there is NO concrete evidence that it acts as a sedative—the studies that showed it had an effect on GABA receptors were done on other species, not horses. Can any of you honestly tell me a horse given Ace and a horse given Depo act the same? They don’t, not even close.

                                        Again, I think we need to put the horses first and it should be banned if it’s truly dangerous. But everyone on here yelling from their moral high ground about how anyone using depo is drugging their horse and should learn to ride, is making me roll my eyes a bit.
                                        "Perception is reality."

                                        It doesn't matter that Depo has not been scientifically proven to have a calming or sedative effect (for that matter, it has not been scientifically proven to have an effect on estrus, either). The problem is that there is a perception among clients and trainers, primarily in hunterland, that Depo has that calming effect. Therefore, that is their reality. It is being used (and abused) on horses of all sexes as such in order to make them quieter. In some cases it's being used to make the horses quieter because the horse is outside its rider's skill level.

                                        This is not about those horse owners who have used Depo for its intended purpose on mares. As stated, they're caught up in this issue and that is unfortunate. Those yelling from the moral high ground aren't just yelling because of Depo use or misuse...at least I'm not. The Depo issue, the Perfect Prep issue, the hours of lunging, are all just symptoms of an industry that has left the nature of the horse behind and has instead put human ideals first.

                                        I feel like that is absolutely worth taking the moral high ground on.

                                        We need to do better for the horses, Depo or no Depo.
                                        War Horse Blog
                                        Blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                                          It doesn't *matter* whether medoxyprogesterone is a sedative. Read the rule--bolding mine--

                                          "GR 410. 1.a
                                          Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony..."
                                          That doesn’t mean people who are stating that depo is a sedative as if it’s fact should not be corrected. Again, making statements like “depo is a sedative and everyone using it is drugging their horse” with no true evidence to back up your claim is not helpful to having a productive conversation.

                                          Comment

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