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Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

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    #41
    Originally posted by x View Post
    I am wondering if there are specific breeds of horses that end up on depo more than others. It seems to be more common in the hunter world, and therefore, is it warmbloods that it is more common for? If it is, are we breeding something into them that is making them less manageable/rideable?
    I don't think it is related to the genetics/bloodlines of the horse so much as it is related to the management of it. Those top HJ horses do not see turnout - if they do, it's for an hour or so a day. A lot of those horses are quiet in spite of their management, and many of the more proven/fashionable lines are actually very amateur friendly, all things considered. The management of these horses is just unrealistic and unsympathetic in terms of what a horse needs: lots of turnout, an actual herd environment, and constant forage.

    A horse is lucky if he gets one of those things provided -- let alone all three.
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
      Ok so let's help out those who are having to look for alternatives.

      For the mare users I know that Regu-Mate is the most likely alternative.

      What do people suggest for the gelding owners who maybe don't want to experience all the fun of #tubapalooza ????


      Em
      Um I don't know- learn how to do better for your horse. Training, turnout, more work, take some more lessons yourself (general you, not you specifically). I ride in a discipline where, in some competitions, using vaseline on a girth rub or rubbing alcohol to cool or baby powder on your horse is against the rules- seriously zero tolerance for any substance other than fly spray. We all seem to be able to manage "crazy" Arabs who are fit to run 50-100 miles in a day (oh and that includes kids and ammies)
      No mourners, no funerals

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by monalisa View Post
        This is the problem.....

        Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
        - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
        - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers

        The judging needs to be changed. People need to really learn to ride before they show. And true horsemanship needs to return but certain it never will in our instant gratification world here in the US. I would okay if they banned everything but aspirin.

        I don't even show the H/J circuit, but do show another circuit...and THIS is spot on for us as well. I'm hopeful my association follows suit on medroxy, although candidly, that just means shady trainers and vets will find something else that doesn't test. My concerns, like some of yours, is that this is used in excess for horses that really don't need it to balance hormones. Trainers are giving it so casually because it's perceived to be safe and they feel it acts as a calming/dulling agent. At least in my discipline, there is such a demand (IMO) to make what I consider robotic horses. It's all about making the horse dull and tired, and just robotically going around.

        Again, I can't speak for the H/J world, but in my discipline, it's a cycle. Most horses are in a full time training program. A pro is working the horse 5-6x a week. Customer shows up to ride at the farm occasionally, then of course comes to the shows. Trainer needs to keep customer happy. Customer is happy when s/he wins. Customer doesn't really know HOW to ride their horse. So horse needs to be super compliant, even if it comes at the expense of a needle, so trainer keeps customer's checks coming. It works for the trainer b/c the customer just can't pull the horse and go show his/herself.

        And to be clear, the horses above, aren't dangerous, hard to handle, etc....but they are expected to be perfect, all the time. Consistency wins.

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by Classic View Post
          Do you think a bunch of horses will appear on the market as a result of this ban like when the bute rules changed?
          If they do it might be a good moment to buy something and actually give it the attention/ changes it needs to do it's job without needles.

          Em
          "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

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            #45
            Originally posted by monalisa View Post
            This is the problem.....

            Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
            - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
            - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers

            The judging needs to be changed. People need to really learn to ride before they show. And true horsemanship needs to return but certain it never will in our instant gratification world here in the US. I would okay if they banned everything but aspirin.
            As someone with several horses who require medications to stay healthy, please don’t ban everything but aspirin
            Not all medications are used in subversive or unethical ways. None of the medications required by my horses have any sort of effect on their performance but without them they would be miserable.

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by TBKite View Post

              If your horse is kicking and twirling in the warmup, get out of the warmup and find somewhere safe to ride through it. If you can't, scratch and find something constructive to do with the horse at this show, to improve his behaviour for next time. If it's a frequent problem go hang out at schooling shows until you get the problem sorted. If you can't do that get a horse you actually CAN ride.
              my horses are good in the warm up. it's the other people i worry about. have you been to a Florida circuit and seen how busy the schooling ring is especially on weekends? with children and adults who will clip you on a young horse?

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by StormyDay View Post

                As someone with several horses who require medications to stay healthy, please don’t ban everything but aspirin
                Not all medications are used in subversive or unethical ways. None of the medications required by my horses have any sort of effect on their performance but without them they would be miserable.
                I can kind of relate as I have a horse with allergies that can flare up at a competition due to traveling in the trailer and being stalled. What works best for him in his inhaler is not allowed to be given at/before recognized competitions. It's purely to help him with the inflammation in his airway so he can essentially be/breathe normal. Nothing exciting or nefarious.





                I forget where I saw this... FB maybe? Someone brought up the point about Depo being already banned at recognized shows in Europe and the lack of fuss over here about it. I already mentioned this earlier in this thread but someone replied to said comment with something along the lines of "but they don't have hunters/equitation in Europe"

                What does that say to you?

                Comment


                  #48
                  Many trainers do their best to find a good match for their rider. Unfortunately, sellers (or sellers' trainers) are not always honest, or leave out important parts of the horse's makeup that the purchaser's trainer knows would be a red flag, but without knowing about the red flag(s), horse is purchased after a good trial. Then buyer's trainer has to fix the rearing, bucking, tail-flagging, unusual bonding to other horses, anxiety if turned for for more than… throws shoes a lot, doesn't like roll tops, has to have depo every other week, whatever. It puts buyer and their trainer in a heck of spot after good money is spent carefully. Then buyer's trainer has to come up with ways to discourage unwanted unknowns. Depo has been one popular method.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    So we have increasing chatter about the exorbitant expense to show at this level and now a ban on a substance heavily relied on to be competitive at this level. Anyone else foresee a dive in rated show attendance?
                    Not everyone showing on the rated circuit can afford to dump their depo dependent mount for something “better”.
                    I have zero issue with this ban and I think it will be interesting to see how the dust settles.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by EmilyM View Post

                      my horses are good in the warm up. it's the other people i worry about. have you been to a Florida circuit and seen how busy the schooling ring is especially on weekends? with children and adults who will clip you on a young horse?
                      So the answer is: drug the horses.

                      For what? A ribbon?

                      I can't believe some people say this stuff with a straight face.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by Classic View Post
                        Many trainers do their best to find a good match for their rider. Unfortunately, sellers (or sellers' trainers) are not always honest, or leave out important parts of the horse's makeup that the purchaser's trainer knows would be a red flag, but without knowing about the red flag(s), horse is purchased after a good trial. Then buyer's trainer has to fix the rearing, bucking, tail-flagging, unusual bonding to other horses, anxiety if turned for for more than… throws shoes a lot, doesn't like roll tops, has to have depo every other week, whatever. It puts buyer and their trainer in a heck of spot after good money is spent carefully. Then buyer's trainer has to come up with ways to discourage unwanted unknowns. Depo has been one popular method.
                        If I had a trainer that couldn’t mitigate those horse buying issues I wouldn’t use that trainer. That screams lack of knowledge that doesn’t warrant a commission.

                        IME the people who end up with horses like that are not honest with themselves about their skill level, nor is the trainer honest with the student about their skill level and the trainer is usually someone who has no business being a trainer.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                          So the answer is: drug the horses.

                          For what? A ribbon?

                          I can't believe some people say this stuff with a straight face.
                          where did i say drug the horses? I said, i hope we don't see kicking out and twirling. Maybe my comment was meant to be, i hope that people who are taking this short cut now, don't get me killed in the warm up without it. But it's the COTH so you know, everyone is a mind reader and expert and can tell me how to train my horses that they've never met.

                          carry on.



                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post
                            I ride in a discipline where, in some competitions, using vaseline on a girth rub or rubbing alcohol to cool or baby powder on your horse is against the rules- seriously zero tolerance for any substance other than fly spray.
                            It might just be me, but I'm not sure this is something to brag about or hold up as a paragon of the way it should be. Other end of the extreme, IMO.
                            https://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post

                              It might just be me, but I'm not sure this is something to brag about or hold up as a paragon of the way it should be. Other end of the extreme, IMO.
                              Actually I think it is. If you horse cannot stay sound as they are, they aren't allowed to compete. They are gone over by both a vet and a lay judge at least 3 times per competition- minor issues, they lose points for. Anything bigger, you're not allow to continue competing.
                              No mourners, no funerals

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post

                                It might just be me, but I'm not sure this is something to brag about or hold up as a paragon of the way it should be. Other end of the extreme, IMO.
                                AGREE.

                                Do people forget that most horses need be able to earn their keep in some manner in order to be useful. What happens to useless horses? I don’t know what Tabulah Rashah’s discipline is (I would guess endurance), but implementing such strict limitations for a massive amount of animals would be eliminating a lot of horses from the sport.
                                I’m not saying it’s okay to allow lame horses to compete, but I am saying it’s NOT good for the horse to ban everything that helps keep a horse comfortable and useful.
                                I am all about welfare and putting the horse first, so let’s do the HORSES a favor by not going to the complete other end of the spectrum. There is ABSOLUTELY a middle ground here

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post

                                  Actually I think it is. If you horse cannot stay sound as they are, they aren't allowed to compete. They are gone over by both a vet and a lay judge at least 3 times per competition- minor issues, they lose points for. Anything bigger, you're not allow to continue competing.
                                  As someone who judged such competitions for many years, it was always refreshing to see a baseline of horsemanship among the competitors that was significantly higher than the overall average.
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                                    I don't think it is related to the genetics/bloodlines of the horse so much as it is related to the management of it. Those top HJ horses do not see turnout - if they do, it's for an hour or so a day.
                                    But this isn't new either: in urban California we've been managing horses this way for decades, and managed to survive, whatever we were riding. I rode plenty of OTTBs who managed to behave and honestly basic manners weren't that much of an issue.
                                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Satin Filly View Post

                                      I’m not saying it’s okay to allow lame horses to compete, but I am saying it’s NOT good for the horse to ban everything that helps keep a horse comfortable and useful.
                                      I am all about welfare and putting the horse first, so let’s do the HORSES a favor by not going to the complete other end of the spectrum. There is ABSOLUTELY a middle ground here
                                      The middle ground is clients and trainers being real about skill level, training timelines, appropriate horse/rider matches, judging standards being made less idealistic, and horse shows becoming horse friendly.

                                      ....but those all require work so instead it'll be on to the next Perfect Prep/Depo solution in a tube, whatever that may be.
                                      War Horse Blog
                                      Blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by tabula rashah View Post

                                        Actually I think it is. If you horse cannot stay sound as they are, they aren't allowed to compete. They are gone over by both a vet and a lay judge at least 3 times per competition- minor issues, they lose points for. Anything bigger, you're not allow to continue competing.
                                        I'm just really skeptical that a rub or scrape requiring vaseline (per your own example) is equivalent to "cannot stay sound."
                                        https://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post

                                          I already mentioned this earlier in this thread but someone replied to said comment with something along the lines of "but they don't have hunters/equitation in Europe"

                                          What does that say to you?
                                          Not true.

                                          https://frenchhorseexports.com/horse...on-horses.html

                                          ... _. ._ .._. .._

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