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Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

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    #21
    Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    Ok so let's help out those who are having to look for alternatives.

    For the mare users I know that Regu-Mate is the most likely alternative.

    What do people suggest for the gelding owners who maybe don't want to experience all the fun of #tubapalooza ????


    Em
    Get a horse.more.suitable.for.the.rider.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by GoneAway View Post

      Possibly...some WBs lines are getting "bloodier" in some aspects. But honestly, I would put more money on any of the following:

      - Clients who have big eyes/big dreams and want the big, fancy warmblood that is too green/too athletic/too out of their riding ability
      - Clients who want to show (and win), now vs. taking the slower route or being mounted on a more suitable, quieter horse that's less athletic and less impressive
      - Trainers who encourage their clients to buy that horse, and are okay with their client being just a little over-horsed so that they reliant on their training program
      - Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
      - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
      - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers
      Amen.
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


        #23
        I believe there will be many upset trainers about this new rule. How long does depo stay in the system, and how often is it given?

        Comment


          #24
          We don’t really know how long it stays in the system and different horses are being prescribed different doses. My gelding also gets 2x as much as a similarly sized mare in my barn, with same vet prescribing, and I’m not sure why that is (I just follow what the vet says). So USEF is not going to hand dow sanctions until June. I guess we will see if that turns out to be long enough. My horse did 2 one day rated dressage shows this year and I have to reconsider showing him in the future, because Depo sure made him easier to live with in the barn and turnout.

          My vet thinks the adverse reactions are probably a compounding problem, and there needs to be more transparency and data collection on that side of things for the sake of everyone who uses it and doesn’t compete or won’t compete at rated shows in the future.

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by StormyDay View Post

            Oh I have met some. Gelding on 24/7 turnout who would have full on meltdowns when a horse left the herd of 10. The depo did help significantly.
            Of course his issues were enough he wasn’t showing anyways so it didn’t matter if depo was banned or not.
            I do wish they had considered banning it only in geldings for the time being (at least, until a safe injectable alternative was brought to market) as I have seen it help mares in their estrus symptoms, even if it doesn’t block estrus.
            There is injectable altrenogest. The micro particle version from BET Pharmacy has worked for my mare. It’s not cheap, but much safer for the human than the oral stuff. I switched her to the injectable after a whole saga of painful cycles, persistent follicles, and breaking through the oral reg.

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
              We don’t really know how long it stays in the system and different horses are being prescribed different doses. My gelding also gets 2x as much as a similarly sized mare in my barn, with same vet prescribing, and I’m not sure why that is (I just follow what the vet says). So USEF is not going to hand dow sanctions until June. I guess we will see if that turns out to be long enough. My horse did 2 one day rated dressage shows this year and I have to reconsider showing him in the future, because Depo sure made him easier to live with in the barn and turnout.

              My vet thinks the adverse reactions are probably a compounding problem, and there needs to be more transparency and data collection on that side of things for the sake of everyone who uses it and doesn’t compete or won’t compete at rated shows in the future.
              I'd say that for those using compounded formulations, it's a total crap shoot how long.
              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                I'd say that for those using compounded formulations, it's a total crap shoot how long.
                Isn't it all compounded when prescribed for horses?

                Comment


                  #28
                  As someone who has been a good 15+ years removed from the H/J world, I find this whole situation absolutely hilarious. My H/J friends on social media are like, “USEF will have blood on their hands!!!” (actual quote)

                  And I’m over here like, uh... if you can’t safely compete or maintain your horse without an injectable “sedative,” well, here’s your sign.
                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

                    Isn't it all compounded when prescribed for horses?
                    I'd expect most of it is, but the "human" version is available. It is certainly all ELUD.
                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by Dutchmare433 View Post

                      There is injectable altrenogest. The micro particle version from BET Pharmacy has worked for my mare. It’s not cheap, but much safer for the human than the oral stuff. I switched her to the injectable after a whole saga of painful cycles, persistent follicles, and breaking through the oral reg.
                      I thought the injectable was not suggested for horses due to possible very bad side effects? Is this a different injectable?

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Originally posted by GoneAway View Post

                        Possibly...some WBs lines are getting "bloodier" in some aspects. But honestly, I would put more money on any of the following:

                        - Clients who have big eyes/big dreams and want the big, fancy warmblood that is too green/too athletic/too out of their riding ability
                        - Clients who want to show (and win), now vs. taking the slower route or being mounted on a more suitable, quieter horse that's less athletic and less impressive
                        - Trainers who encourage their clients to buy that horse, and are okay with their client being just a little over-horsed so that they reliant on their training program
                        - Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
                        - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
                        - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers
                        Ding ding ding!! Gone Away for the win. Okay, so many great points by many posters, really, but these points made by Gone Away, to me, nail it.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by StormyDay View Post

                          I thought the injectable was not suggested for horses due to possible very bad side effects? Is this a different injectable?
                          It’s pretty new, only available in the last few years, so not the one you are thinking of, I believe. There’s a risk of reaction at injection site, (similar to Estrumate) so I draw it up and then switch needles, as suggested by my vet.

                          The same company that makes the injectable omeperazole makes it.

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Originally posted by EmilyM View Post

                            Hoping we don't see more schooling ring accidents like kicking and twirling as a result of this. . .
                            If your horse is kicking and twirling in the warmup, get out of the warmup and find somewhere safe to ride through it. If you can't, scratch and find something constructive to do with the horse at this show, to improve his behaviour for next time. If it's a frequent problem go hang out at schooling shows until you get the problem sorted. If you can't do that get a horse you actually CAN ride.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by Dutchmare433 View Post

                              It’s pretty new, only available in the last few years, so not the one you are thinking of, I believe. There’s a risk of reaction at injection site, (similar to Estrumate) so I draw it up and then switch needles, as suggested by my vet.

                              The same company that makes the injectable omeperazole makes it.
                              Interesting! The other one had some pretty nasty side effects if im recalling it correctly. What a great alternative

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Originally posted by GoneAway View Post

                                Possibly...some WBs lines are getting "bloodier" in some aspects. But honestly, I would put more money on any of the following:

                                - Clients who have big eyes/big dreams and want the big, fancy warmblood that is too green/too athletic/too out of their riding ability
                                - Clients who want to show (and win), now vs. taking the slower route or being mounted on a more suitable, quieter horse that's less athletic and less impressive
                                - Trainers who encourage their clients to buy that horse, and are okay with their client being just a little over-horsed so that they reliant on their training program
                                - Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
                                - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
                                - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers
                                Well said and absolutely valid points.

                                ​​​​​​
                                I also think Warmbloods are often bred for performance/athleticism, and gaits. Temperament not so much. This often creates an athletic horse not suitable for average amateur riders. Just my personal observations.

                                I've seen a few people in my circle buy a horse purely for looks, or being "fancy" and totally disregard the fact that they may not be able to actually ride the horse or the horse is above their ability and/or confidence level. These horses end up being fed calming additives, and subject to not so great training methods in an attempt to make them more suitable for their owner. Some people can't admit that the horse is wrong for them, too much horse, etc. So it's easier to inject or feed them whatever. I, personally, will not own a horse that I have to feed a calming agent to in order to ride them (rehab cases and actual severe hormonal issues aside).

                                It's interesting because I experienced a rather clueless individual recently (with little to no desire to learn) and I could explain it as, "x is a horse owner, not a horseman" or "not a horse person" if you will.

                                Now, maybe there are horses out there that genuinely need Depo (probably very few!) but the discretion is blurry, as well as the determination of "need" Along with taking into consideration horse welfare and the anaphylaxis risk. Like I said, it's already banned here, and I think this is a good step for the US. I just hope it doesn't result in more crap training short cuts. Someone on FB mentioned something along the lines of "expect to see more hours of running horses on the longe line at shows"

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  I would love to see their statistical analysis. 23 deaths and they have countless drug declaration forms. If their analysis relies on these numbers, then eventing should be banned, horse racing should be banned and of course, there are deaths of show jumpers too so...... I also love the irony that they guy who was the head of a tobacco company that poisoned and killed millions of people with his product is ringing the alarm bell about depo and banning it. Late in life change of heart? Or found a heart.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by FreshAir View Post
                                    I would love to see their statistical analysis. 23 deaths and they have countless drug declaration forms. If their analysis relies on these numbers, then eventing should be banned, horse racing should be banned and of course, there are deaths of show jumpers too so...... I also love the irony that they guy who was the head of a tobacco company that poisoned and killed millions of people with his product is ringing the alarm bell about depo and banning it. Late in life change of heart? Or found a heart.
                                    What does this have to do with using a medication in an off-label manner, ultimately altering behavior/sedating? If Pookie tries to kick other horses in the warmup ring without depo (another poster's example), then you have a training issue. Period.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      This is the problem.....

                                      Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
                                      - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
                                      - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers

                                      The judging needs to be changed. People need to really learn to ride before they show. And true horsemanship needs to return but certain it never will in our instant gratification world here in the US. I would okay if they banned everything but aspirin.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by monalisa View Post
                                        This is the problem.....

                                        Big box shows held for weeks at a time with little or no turnout available
                                        - Unrealistic/Idealistic judging standards that still prefer a nearly robotic hunter round
                                        - We have more "riders" in our sport, fewer true horsemen and well-rounded, knowledgeable trainers

                                        The judging needs to be changed. People need to really learn to ride before they show. And true horsemanship needs to return but certain it never will in our instant gratification world here in the US. I would okay if they banned everything but aspirin.
                                        Amen and spot on!

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Do you think a bunch of horses will appear on the market as a result of this ban like when the bute rules changed?

                                          Comment

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