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Max number of classes for hunters

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  • Max number of classes for hunters

    i was looking through results for Sunshine Series and I was shocked at how many classes some of the hunters are in. Yes, it’s typical for a hunter to be shown in one division on the pro days, by a jr/am on the weekend and maybe some eq thrown in there too.

    All of that is even a lot for my taste. Yet I saw a horse shown by 3 different people, in MORE than three divisions.

    3 low classes
    performance 3’3” division
    pre-adult 2’
    adult equation
    adult hunter 2’3”
    low juniors

    Most good jumper riders/trainers sallow one class per day for their jumpers. Why is it such a drastic difference for the hunters? And how in the world is this allowed?

    I’m not just coming on here to complain- if someone has a real solution for this I would love to reach out and be the change. But I also do want to start a dialogue. This isn’t the first time a horse has been asked to do this much. And on top of it the hunters are lunged, hacked, woken up in the middle of the night to be braided, etc.

  • #2
    That's nothing. I have seen horses ridden in more than 11 classes in a day. Especially the schoolie types that do a walk trot, then the 2' then the 2'3 then the 2'9. And the horse was over 16 years old.

    I would probably not do more than 4 jump rounds in a day.

    Em
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

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    • #3
      I am not familiar with the Sunshine Series, but what you describe a huge pet peeve of mine! Completely irresponsible horsemanship, from the trainer on down to the riders and owners. At your better show barns, a good horse may do a training division and 1 hunter division, plus perhaps a warm up of some sort.

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by kirbydog View Post
        I am not familiar with the Sunshine Series, but what you describe a huge pet peeve of mine! Completely irresponsible horsemanship, from the trainer on down to the riders and owners. At your better show barns, a good horse may do a training division and 1 hunter division, plus perhaps a warm up of some sort.

        Oh, this is a good horse who has proven itself time and time again. Sunshine Series is in SoCal and hosts a World Cup class. People from all over the country and there to show now, before Vegas.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rumorhasit93 View Post
          i was looking through results for Sunshine Series and I was shocked at how many classes some of the hunters are in. Yes, it’s typical for a hunter to be shown in one division on the pro days, by a jr/am on the weekend and maybe some eq thrown in there too.

          All of that is even a lot for my taste. Yet I saw a horse shown by 3 different people, in MORE than three divisions.

          3 low classes
          performance 3’3” division
          pre-adult 2’
          adult equation
          adult hunter 2’3”
          low juniors

          Most good jumper riders/trainers sallow one class per day for their jumpers. Why is it such a drastic difference for the hunters? And how in the world is this allowed?

          I’m not just coming on here to complain- if someone has a real solution for this I would love to reach out and be the change. But I also do want to start a dialogue. This isn’t the first time a horse has been asked to do this much. And on top of it the hunters are lunged, hacked, woken up in the middle of the night to be braided, etc.
          On the surface that sounds like a lot of classes for one horse and a huge variety from 2' to 3'3". I'd be wondering if maybe the horse show mixed things up and combined the entries of two or more horses into one. It happens. I had a baby green at HITS one year. HITS was convinced my baby green also did the 1.3m jumpers. I was charged for the classes and everything. Lots of fun unwinding that tangle of paperwork. (Said no one ever).

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by OneTwoMany View Post
            On the surface that sounds like a lot of classes for one horse and a huge variety from 2' to 3'3". I'd be wondering if maybe the horse show mixed things up and combined the entries of two or more horses into one. It happens. I had a baby green at HITS one year. HITS was convinced my baby green also did the 1.3m jumpers. I was charged for the classes and everything. Lots of fun unwinding that tangle of paperwork. (Said no one ever).
            Woah! Funny, but also a hassle.

            Unfortunately the Instagram of the barn proves that the horse indeed did show in those divisions. Upon checking the entries again, it may have possibly scratched 3 classes, but it placed in rest of them.

            This incident aside, I’ve seen others that I just feel terrible for. Like I said, most jumpers at any reputable barn show in one class per day. They generally, but not always, are not lunged and usually get a light hack in the morning.

            Just a vast difference in how how we treat hunters vs jumpers.

            Comment


            • #7
              There are more jumping efforts in a jumper round, even before you add a jump off, and the fences can be higher and wider, with square overs. So one jumper class might equal three hunter rounds. Or not.

              Hunter and eq divisions are set up to run more than one round in the division per day.

              Having said that, I don’t agree with people who put a horse in two professional divisions and then two Hunter divisions plus an extra class or two with the junior or amateur. There’s one infamous person who not only puts a horse in multiple divisions, but has been known to simultaneously show in a USEF show and a county show the same weekend. Sometimes with classes in the same day in both venues. With a mountain between them.

              My horse generally does 2-3 rounds a day.
              The Evil Chem Prof

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              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Peggy View Post
                There are more jumping efforts in a jumper round, even before you add a jump off, and the fences can be higher and wider, with square overs. So one jumper class might equal three hunter rounds. Or not.

                Hunter and eq divisions are set up to run more than one round in the division per day.

                Having said that, I don’t agree with people who put a horse in two professional divisions and then two Hunter divisions plus an extra class or two with the junior or amateur. There’s one infamous person who not only puts a horse in multiple divisions, but has been known to simultaneously show in a USEF show and a county show the same weekend. Sometimes with classes in the same day in both venues. With a mountain between them.

                My horse generally does 2-3 rounds a day.
                Wow. That is just crazy- why go to a county show on the same weekend as a USEF show? You don't get points, so that is just extra sad to me. Not that points justify anything.

                Yes, when it comes down to the actual number of jumps, a jumper does jump more fences in a given round than a hunter. Although if you look at the span of an entire show week, if a jumper does 5 classes total and isn't LTD, he has a much better life. Don't even get me started on drugs.

                Then there are the horses that have been to Junior Hunter Finals, Derby Finals, etc. and at 16 years old packing a kid around the short stirrup, and guess what? Pro days its doing the 3'6". Just to add to the list.

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                • #9
                  I guarantee this horse really did that many classes. Horsemanship is lacking in the H/J industry.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LovesHorses View Post
                    I guarantee this horse really did that many classes. Horsemanship is lacking in the H/J industry.
                    Yikes, pretty blanket statement to make. How is H/J any different from any other discipline?

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by wannabedvm View Post

                      Yikes, pretty blanket statement to make. How is H/J any different from any other discipline?
                      This could have an entire thread by itself. I worked with my cousin who is/was a top pleasure rider/trainer. That is the saddest thing I have ever been a part of. I groomed at their nationals and worlds shows two summers in high school and couldn’t believe my eyes.

                      My point about this thread also is how different hunters are from jumpers (as mentioned above). From trainer to trainer we are different, too.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by wannabedvm View Post

                        Yikes, pretty blanket statement to make. How is H/J any different from any other discipline?
                        That, and the USEF is a joke compared to FEI. I wish USEF would actually do something about repeat drug offenders. Again, probably for another time.

                        It’s also pretty hard to ignore the fact that not many people groom their own horses, ever. That’s as basic as it gets. Not at home- not at the shows is understandable. So, yeah, I’d have to agree that horsemanship is lacking.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rumorhasit93 View Post


                          My point about this thread also is how different hunters are from jumpers (as mentioned above). From trainer to trainer we are different, too.
                          I know that this wasn't the point you were making in this thread. I was responding to a separate poster's comment.

                          Originally posted by Rumorhasit93 View Post

                          That, and the USEF is a joke compared to FEI. I wish USEF would actually do something about repeat drug offenders. Again, probably for another time.

                          It’s also pretty hard to ignore the fact that not many people groom their own horses, ever. That’s as basic as it gets. Not at home- not at the shows is understandable. So, yeah, I’d have to agree that horsemanship is lacking.
                          First, FEI vs. USEF is a governing body problem, not an H/J vs. other disciplines problem.

                          Second, my point is that I don't think horsemanship is lacking in H/J any more than in other competitive disciplines. I'm not saying it's not lacking period, but I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that H/J is WORSE than other disciplines. Maybe we lack more horsemanship in certain ways than other disciplines do, but we make up for it in other ways. Like you said, pleasure was just as bad, if not worse. We know what happens / has happened with gaited breeds, racing, etc. I just don't think H/J has worse horsepeople than other disciplines. I took the other poster's comment as implying that the H/J industry in particular has a problem with horsemanship. Maybe that's not what they meant.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by wannabedvm View Post

                            I know that this wasn't the point you were making in this thread. I was responding to a separate poster's comment.



                            First, FEI vs. USEF is a governing body problem, not an H/J vs. other disciplines problem.

                            Second, my point is that I don't think horsemanship is lacking in H/J any more than in other competitive disciplines. I'm not saying it's not lacking period, but I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that H/J is WORSE than other disciplines. Maybe we lack more horsemanship in certain ways than other disciplines do, but we make up for it in other ways. Like you said, pleasure was just as bad, if not worse. We know what happens / has happened with gaited breeds, racing, etc. I just don't think H/J has worse horsepeople than other disciplines. I took the other poster's comment as implying that the H/J industry in particular has a problem with horsemanship. Maybe that's not what they meant.
                            I have to agree with the other poster- we do lack horsemanship in a serious way. I'm not talking about compared to other disciplines or not, we just do. The number of Instagram posts I see from children and adults at the shows kissing their horse that is being held by the groom on the other end is laughable.

                            The topic of this entire thread is a prime example. The owner of the horse in question here is either a) completely oblivious or b) okay with their horse doing that many classes in a week (it's showing this week, too, by the way). Not to mention the three trainers employed at this barn all thought this was completely fine. Trainers lead the way in this industry, and when we "raise" the next generation of riders to think this is okay, then I guess nothing is going to change. Not arguing, just trying to point out what I think is so sad and obvious.

                            And in regards to the FEI/USEF thing...there's a reason hunters aren't part of FEI. I think they should be, to finally be held accountable, but I digress. It's a hunter vs. jumper issue. There are still flaws, and as a former groom the FEI can seem ridiculous at times, but I am still thankful for their rules.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The AA/A quality hunter barn in my area that I follow most closely seems to usually have the horses that clients ride do three divisions at a show - one with pro, one hunter and one eq with the client. They may add a Wed warm-up class and maybe a derby or special class. It works out to about 3-4 jump rounds a day on the week-end as well as one flat class each day. That doesn't seem excessive - especially since the jump rounds are often back to back i.e. each one doesn't require a separate warm-up.

                              The number of divisions done by the the horse in the OP does seem excessive, but I don't think that is an indictment of the whole discipline. I do think you are more likely to see that type usage on local circuits by trainers that are trying to climb the ladder and only have that one golden schoolie that gets the results.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Rumorhasit93 View Post

                                And in regards to the FEI/USEF thing...there's a reason hunters aren't part of FEI. I think they should be, to finally be held accountable, but I digress. It's a hunter vs. jumper issue. There are still flaws, and as a former groom the FEI can seem ridiculous at times, but I am still thankful for their rules.
                                It’s not like you just show up and announce you want to be an FEI discipline and you’re in. The FEI disciplines are ones that involve disciplines that occur in more than one country, hence the I of FEI. National levels of disciplines that are FEI are run under USEF drug and other rules. For example people show jumpers and dressage at USEF only shows that are run under USEF rules, but the CDI, CSI, etc. events are run under FEI rules.
                                The Evil Chem Prof

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Peggy View Post

                                  It’s not like you just show up and announce you want to be an FEI discipline and you’re in. The FEI disciplines are ones that involve disciplines that occur in more than one country, hence the I of FEI. National levels of disciplines that are FEI are run under USEF drug and other rules. For example people show jumpers and dressage at USEF only shows that are run under USEF rules, but the CDI, CSI, etc. events are run under FEI rules.
                                  Never mind the FEI isn’t all that squeaky clean either. The UAE and endurance come to mind.

                                  Rumorhasit93 the reason hunters are not part of the FEI is because the majority of countries don’t show hunters. It’s has nothing to do with the USEF not wanting oversight.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                                    Never mind the FEI isn’t all that squeaky clean either. The UAE and endurance come to mind.

                                    Rumorhasit93 the reason hunters are not part of the FEI is because the majority of countries don’t show hunters. It’s has nothing to do with the USEF not wanting oversight.
                                    Reining is an FEI discipline. Although that is becoming more popular in Europe. Or has been, I’m not sure.

                                    My point about FEI is they have much higher standards for what they deem acceptable. The USEF could stand to care a LOT more.

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                                    • #19
                                      Hunters are coming in over here in Europe. They’re not hugely popular but they do have hunter classes in Germany and the Netherlands at least. They’re not quite the same but it’s something. My horse is far from a hunter so we don’t even think about trying them 🤣

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                                      • #20
                                        While I agree that many horses are entered in too many divisions, I've seen plenty of horses that are doing just 2 divisions a day (say a warm up and then the "real class") that are schooled and prepped as long if not longer than some of those horses that may show in more divisions. Seems to me that it's the school horses that manage to enter in every class a show has to offer, which i think is a shame. God love them as many just truck around looking as happy as can be. Are they?

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