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Alcohol in warm up ring (horse, not human)?

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
    But I'm curious why people are so resistant to the idea this is an actual form of cheating. Surely it's possible to say "we don't fully believe your story about this trainer but yes some trainers do cheat this way."
    I already explained why I don't believe that spraying alcohol on a horse's legs minutes before it goes in the ring will keep it from rubbing the jumps. It is because the sting from putting rubbing alcohol on fresh scratches completely subsides once the alcohol evaporates, which is generally less than thirty seconds. Any discomfort the horse might have felt would be gone by the time it stepped into the ring. If there are no fresh scratches on the horse's legs, there really won't be any sting at all.

    I'm sure there are trainers out there who use soring techniques on their horses, but they aren't using rubbing alcohol and they aren't doing it at the ring.

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

      Haven't shown hunters in eons--do they have TDs now?
      Hunters and jumpers have a steward, and if something blatantly illegal, dontcha think they would have been on it?

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
        But I'm curious why people are so resistant to the idea this is an actual form of cheating. Surely it's possible to say "we don't fully believe your story about this trainer but yes some trainers do cheat this way."
        My issue is more that threads like this come up now and then here and oftentimes it's someone who is suspicious of everyone doing anything to a horse at a show. Even as someone with access to top grooms, I see things going on at shows that I don't understand - every groom has different methods of getting the job done. People can be really quick to assume on here that anything they haven't seen before at a highly competitive show is cheating because it doesn't line up with their 1980's ideas of horsemanship.

        OP: sometimes grooms do things to horses and you might not be able to see why. Maybe you don't think the legs were white and maybe they have a different standard for turn out than you do. Maybe there was something else in the solution, since you only say you smelled alcohol and have zero definitive proof that it's the only thing being sprayed.

        I don't believe that you were at a major show and there was no one around to report this to if you had an issue. This was the warm up? There was nobody at the in gate?

        The tone of this post just seems like it's meant to stir up drama. If you were genuinely concerned at all for the well-being of this horse, you would have done the minor legwork to find an official to chat with about it. Instead, you decided to post about it on the internet.

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by mvp View Post

          I think being sprayed and being clipped are different things. And what I meant (and still think) is that any horse who has been around the block as much as a show hunter has, has learned to accept spraying. This horse objected enough that another groom held up a front leg to keep him still. I wasn't there to see what the horse was doing, of course, but I can't see a professional groom not being able to get the spraying done by himself with a horse who as just a little bit uncooperative.

          I tend to think that most pros (or their grooms) are like me: They know that sprays and clipping will be in the horse's job description and try to teach him to accept those things.

          Some horses are quirky, and I think the better the horse's other skills are the more likely people are to put up with those quirks. I rode a GP jumper in college that had to be drugged to shoe. You couldn't even pick up a foot to clean it out without risking your life. It jumped well and people accepted that as his quirk.
          http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

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          • #85
            Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

            To the folks that are resistant to the idea, are you saying that soring could never happen in this fashion ( despite a couple of posters bravely saying they have participated)? Or are you saying that soring in this fashion is Ok and just part of hunter life? Or are you saying that hunters is such a lily white sport that no bad horsemanship or cheating could ever happen?
            None of the above. I think there is a plausible alternative explanation, and there simply is not enough evidence to decide one way or the other. But I am slightly suspicious of how OP originally presented this and then later added details she left out before and came down firmly on one side, when at first it sounded like she was unsure what she was seeing.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

              Wow, Alibi, that is some pretty hateful and strong language. Disappointed to read this from you. It is not appropriate for you to attack me. I’m not 13 (did not join this board at 0 years old) nor a coward or idiot. Plus boomer, there are plenty of 13 year olds around who have useful insight.
              Is it more appropriate to start an « innocent » thread only to backstab a trainer you know nothing about?


              As I have not identified the culprit, I am not attacking them. I will relay what I saw - I including the fact that it did not look right to us, to anyone who is considering that trainer. Merely reporting on what we saw. Those individual can then choose how or to what degree they decide to consider what I saw or further investigate the trainer to see if their values align with them. Nothing wrong with that. To be honest, I wish I had thought quickly enough to record it. That would have been the smart thing to do.
              If « relaying what you saw » is not attacking someone...

              You know what gossips are?

              Talk us more about the awful scabs this horse had, ones that you could see from 15 feet away... apparently caused by the clipping job.
              Were they bloody as well?

              There was no TD or official present. If there was, I would have quietly asked them to take a look and confirm if this was or was not acceptable. It did not look right to me, or those around, but I’m not an official. As others pointed out, what exactly did you want me to report?
              There is always a TD somewhere around.
              They are usually on the opposite side of the hitching ring. Watching everyone going in and out.

              Are derbys run under rules that forbid this? Maybe we can plant you at the hitching and you can keep an eye on them all.
              Are you so ignorant about showing that you don’t know the first rule?

              No one is allowed, under no circumstances, to hurt a horse. If the horse was in pain...

              (And by we I mean the people I attended with who were also concerned)
              Do they know about horses or they’re just relying on you to know what’s right or wrong?

              I know one of the organizer of the Royal, why don’t you let me know the name of the trainer in private and I will relay the information so the TD could have an eye on this matter - It’s never too late, especially if they still have some riders tomorrow.
              ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

              Originally posted by LauraKY
              I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
              HORSING mobile training app

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              • #87
                People do cheat, and after a slap on the wrist can ride for the U.S. team. https://horseauthority.co/nj-jumper-...ic-horse-show/

                Comment


                • #88
                  This thread is weird. Alcohol is commonly used as a cleaning agent. Someone wiping their horse down at the ring is cleaning it. Or does the OP really think a trainer would do some nefarious thing to a horse to make it more sensitive (and why on earth would any trainer want a derby horse to be sensitive/explosive in the ring?) at the ingate? We have enough problems with our sport, let’s not go looking for them.

                  Also, I sprayed showsheen on one of mine today. You would have thought I was inflicting her with the most painful thing ever. She half buckled, spun and bucked. From showsheen in her tail. Drama, she had it. Glad no one reported me

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
                    This thread is weird. Alcohol is commonly used as a cleaning agent. Someone wiping their horse down at the ring is cleaning it. Or does the OP really think a trainer would do some nefarious thing to a horse to make it more sensitive (and why on earth would any trainer want a derby horse to be sensitive/explosive in the ring?) at the ingate? We have enough problems with our sport, let’s not go looking for them.

                    Also, I sprayed showsheen on one of mine today. You would have thought I was inflicting her with the most painful thing ever. She half buckled, spun and bucked. From showsheen in her tail. Drama, she had it. Glad no one reported me
                    Better to be reported at the time, so you can show that you are using showsheen than to have someone start a thread like this. I too have used alcohol for stains on a grey horse, I've never had one that hated to be sprayed but I know that some really do.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by nycjumper View Post
                      This thread is weird. Alcohol is commonly used as a cleaning agent. Someone wiping their horse down at the ring is cleaning it. Or does the OP really think a trainer would do some nefarious thing to a horse to make it more sensitive (and why on earth would any trainer want a derby horse to be sensitive/explosive in the ring?) at the ingate? We have enough problems with our sport, let’s not go looking for them.

                      Also, I sprayed showsheen on one of mine today. You would have thought I was inflicting her with the most painful thing ever. She half buckled, spun and bucked. From showsheen in her tail. Drama, she had it. Glad no one reported me
                      Only pointing out that at least two posters on here reported first hand experience of this form of cheating plus the FEI just banned clipping legs on show grounds.

                      I agree that soring hunters legs seems ridiculous and counter productive but so do many strategies like poling the hind legs and warming up with 3 different kinds of martingales and doping.

                      My takeaway from this thread is that soring is something that crap trainers might be doing and it's worth being aware it's in the realm of possibility.

                      I have no idea if that's what OP saw happening and don't know OP's motives for bringing it up. But I do find it interesting to hear about something new to me.
                      ​​

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

                        Hunters and jumpers have a steward, and if something blatantly illegal, dontcha think they would have been on it?
                        So the answer to my question is no, then.
                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Not saying cheating isn't possible...

                          However... In all the years I've been clipping, I've never ever left a scab on a horse clipping legs. Let alone visible from 15ft away. If they're that visible? Odds are there's another issue. Clipper burn IME doesn't look like that. Alcohol needs to be about 70% to stay on a surface long enough to actually be productive killing things, if they were using it kill any bacteria/etc on these sores. Any higher evaporates too quickly. We use rubbing alcohol to clean poles in pole dancing, and that stuff is STRONG, even at 70%. Spray down a pole and you can smell it a ways away. Depending on ring conditions, they could be cleaning, they could be trying to keep up killing stuff until they can get back to the stall and treat it more thoroughly.

                          But someone else's idea of "white" may not be MY idea of white. I've had people compliment on my gray's cleanliness when I think he's filthy. Just because one person thinks socks are white doesn't mean they can't be whiter, or that the groom is willing to accept that version of white.

                          Good to know that some people do sketchy things, but to lambast this trainer or "spread the word" off a situation the OP wasn't directly involved in is ludicrous. Plenty of seasoned campaigners loathe spray anything near their legs.
                          Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post
                            Not saying cheating isn't possible...

                            However... In all the years I've been clipping, I've never ever left a scab on a horse clipping legs. Let alone visible from 15ft away. If they're that visible? Odds are there's another issue. Clipper burn IME doesn't look like that. .
                            Agreed. An alternative explanation is the horse was coming down with scratches and they re-clipped the legs to help them dry more quickly and let air get to the scabs.

                            ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              If this class was indeed a rated Hunter derby, there would be a steward at the ring watching the schooling. Another thing that struck me was the OP said she was pretty sure the horse got s rail. If it got a hind rail in the first round, before the alcohol was applied, he wouldn't be in the second round. If it was before the first round, well it wasn't a very effective method, was it? And again, if it was before the second round, the stewards would have seen it, and if it were against the rules, would have stopped it.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                It’s funny. We show on the A circuit, the local circuit and also will do schooling shows. For all the threads I read about the rampant cheating, I don’t often see anything that makes me raise an eyebrow and I’m not naive. There are some trainers I wouldn’t do business with bc who could replicate their ah..therapeutic program but the vast majority are doing their job. Anyway carry on.

                                Ohh and I have one (chestnut with lots of bling) who has scurf and marks on his legs that we CANNOT get rid of. Unfortunately he got off the plane like that and 6 months later, still there. We’ve had vets, we’ve tried everything under the sun topical and unfortunately it is what is is. I still have to clean and get his legs looking as good as possible. There may be reasons other than soring or something nefarious for a horse to have visible scabs on his legs.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #96
                                  Thanks all for helping me understand this.

                                  I did not know that this was a (possible) form of cheating. I’ve never heard or seen the wire brush and alcohol thing. Now that this has been confirmed by those more experienced (and who I greatly respect - RAyers), I will be more proactive to speak up for the horse. I just thought it was strange hence my ask. Given some of your feedback, my questions have been answered.

                                  Next time, if I’ve got my wits about me quick enough, I’m just going to video the conduct and find an official to show it to. I just didn’t think fast enough this time around. And there were no officials within public reach - the warm up ring is not accessible from the restaurant, this all happened in the holding ring for lack of a better term. I wasn’t going to get tackled jumping a fence to report something I wasn’t sure about to someone who was not there. But if we video then the act is captured and the officials can look into it. Does anyone know if there is a TD or something for Hunters? I don’t know. Not my discipline. No one with official tags was anywhere in sight.

                                  Alibi, feel free to let me know who to speak with and I’m happy to call them to provide my eye witness account. I have nothing to hide - they did this in public - and can even ask those I know if they wish to speak as well. But no, I’m not going to identify the person on here because that would be unfair.

                                  I’m not interested in outrage justice. I am grateful to learn more from all of you so I can be better prepared next time. And maybe those reading can learn from my mistake not speaking up for the horse. I feel bad about that now but that’s hindsight.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    There are always stewards for hunters! Generally all the big shows have multiple stewards, and also place one strictly to monitor the warm up!
                                    I have cancer but cancer doesnt have me!

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      For whatever it's worth, I have a few points to bring up because of the idea that "X kind of horse would never" or "fill-in-the-blank should/could/would never happen"....

                                      I have a train wreck of a horse, three high whites, this boy plays harder than he works, and I truly have never had a horse with such an amazing work ethic. I.e. he plays HARD. And because of this, he has the most beat up and scared... I was going to say legs, but really his whole body has scars from the things he's gotten in to. The most disturbing are on his legs. And since they're white, they stand out. He has one long pressure sore-like scar on a front leg that just never quite healed right. 4 years later, it has no hair, it's pink because of the white leg, It looks like a freshly healed cut, and he's sensitive to things being sprayed on it. Chalk it up to immune system issue, sensitive skin, pressure sore, or whatever, for the reason it never healed right. But fact is that area is more sensitive to brushing and sprays. And you can see his battle scars from a ways away. But the ones on his white legs are particularly noticeable.

                                      This wonderful white legged boy is also super prone to scratches. And those scabs are nasty and unsightly when he has that going on.

                                      Apparently my Congress champion hunter isn't that good since he occasionally will rub a rail

                                      I have an extremely seasoned flat horse who assumes anything you spray him with is acid. So just because a horse is seasoned enough to show a derby, doesn't mean he won't object to being sprayed.

                                      Why in the name of stain removal has no one told me about using alcohol?? I even grew up on Paints and never knew about it. Current horse is later in the graying process, practically white. The last year and a half that i've had him may have been made substantially easier if I had known about using alcohol.....
                                      *I have a pinball machine of a mind. I apologize in advance if I leave someone behind. Sometimes I can't even keep up*

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        I’m trying to understand the backlash towards the OP in this situation. OP witnessed this act at a show and it didn’t sit quite right. Rather than outright accuse someone of foul play (and risk being wrong), OP explained the situation here and asked the fairly open ended question of why someone would do XYZ, without being accusatory. Seems likely OP suspected a welfare issue from the get-go, and many of you replied confirming her suspicion. So now OP is relinquishing more details of the story that further coincide with her suspicion.
                                        What is the problem here?

                                        Comment


                                        • The sh*t that goes on never seems to amaze me.

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