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Alcohol in warm up ring (horse, not human)?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

    Yes, they were doing this in front of people, probably about 10 to 15 watching. Started with the thought maybe it doesn’t like to be sprayed. A couple people really started watching when the front leg needed to be picked up to allow this to continue. It was still trying to pick up the hind when the front was held up. Horse was dancing around in pain, not annoyed because it was getting sprayed. There is a difference.

    All 4 legs were white and blindingly beautifully white before the “cleaning” started. No dust, no yellow, no footing on them. Interestingly the front legs were not wiped, only the hind legs. Did I mention you could see the clipper track marks (painful looking scabs) from 15 feet away?

    I looked up who the trainer was. Not local to me but you better believe anyone considering sending their horse there will be told what we saw. They can then make their choice on how they would like to proceed.

    (oh, and pretty sure it pulled a rail in the class... a couple did and I think this was one of them)
    How do you know it was dancing in pain and not irritation? Did the fronts have white on them? We’re the scabs closed, then? If so, alcohol might not even sting.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

      Yes, they were doing this in front of people, probably about 10 to 15 watching. Started with the thought maybe it doesn’t like to be sprayed. A couple people really started watching when the front leg needed to be picked up to allow this to continue. It was still trying to pick up the hind when the front was held up. Horse was dancing around in pain, not annoyed because it was getting sprayed. There is a difference.

      All 4 legs were white and blindingly beautifully white before the “cleaning” started. No dust, no yellow, no footing on them. Interestingly the front legs were not wiped, only the hind legs. Did I mention you could see the clipper track marks (painful looking scabs) from 15 feet away?

      I looked up who the trainer was. Not local to me but you better believe anyone considering sending their horse there will be told what we saw. They can then make their choice on how they would like to proceed.

      (oh, and pretty sure it pulled a rail in the class... a couple did and I think this was one of them)
      So, you have now significantly embellished your original post with incriminating details, albeit subjective. I have to wonder why your original post seemed like a solicitation of opinions. Can you really say with certainty that the horse was in pain? And you're so sure about this that you will slander the trainer?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by keatssu View Post

        So, you have now significantly embellished your original post with incriminating details, albeit subjective. I have to wonder why your original post seemed like a solicitation of opinions. Can you really say with certainty that the horse was in pain? And you're so sure about this that you will slander the trainer?
        Exactly. Seems very weird that, at first, OP was merely curious and neutral but now has remembered many other details and seems to come down clearly on one side. Was the point of this post to just stir up drama?

        Comment


        • #64
          So why did no one, if there were that many watching, ask the steward? I’ve shown at a lot of big shows, and the stewards are on you faster than a fly on food if you do anything out of line at the rings! I’m assuming, this is probably the Royal? They’ll definitely have stewards in the warmup and they’ll not let anything slide! Man I’ve even had my crop measured at shows when stewards have wanted to know if it’s legal (it is I’m short and so it just looks too long)
          I have cancer but cancer doesnt have me!

          Comment


          • #65
            Again, since clipping legs at shows has been banned by the FEI I think we all have to accept that soring the legs of jumpers is one form of cheating that a small minority of trainers have been doing. Do we know 100% that this trainer was doing that on purpose? No, but the added details make it more likely.

            Is this an effective training technique? No, but many techniques used by dubious trainers in hunter world are not effective (ponies being schooled with 3 different martingales, longeing to exhaustion, doping with sedatives, poling the hindlegs). I'm not sure why people are so resistant to recognize that soring legs is an actual practice among a small percentage of bad trainers. Obviously if you use alcohol to clean up a horse without causing pain we aren't implicating you personally in soring just like if you longe for 20 minutes before you ride we aren't accusing you of longeing to exhaustion.

            And maybe soring legs is rare enough (because it's a stupid idea) that trainer feels it's safe enough to do in full view because the onlookers aren't sure what they are seeing.

            ​​​​​​

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post
              Yes, they were doing this in front of people, probably about 10 to 15 watching. Started with the thought maybe it doesn’t like to be sprayed. A couple people really started watching when the front leg needed to be picked up to allow this to continue. It was still trying to pick up the hind when the front was held up.
              Horse was dancing around in pain, not annoyed because it was getting sprayed. There is a difference.
              So none of 10-15 people present haven’t said anything?
              Why haven’t you said something, to a TD perhaps - as there is always one not too far from warming up rings?

              Shame on YOU all for not intervening if the horse was indeed in pain.

              All 4 legs were white and blindingly beautifully white before the “cleaning” started. No dust, no yellow, no footing on them. Interestingly the front legs were not wiped, only the hind legs. Did I mention you could see the clipper track marks (painful looking scabs) from 15 feet away?
              Painful looking scabs?!? Seen from 15 feet away?!?


              Have you ever clipped a horse?

              Are you ... ?...

              I looked up who the trainer was. Not local to me but you better believe anyone considering sending their horse there will be told what we saw. They can then make their choice on how they would like to proceed.
              (oh, and pretty sure it pulled a rail in the class... a couple did and I think this was one of them)
              Are you the « we »?
              Or are the other people present ready to testify themselves?
              Or are you talking for them?

              The only thing I believe is that you are trash talking a trainer behind their back and under a pseudo because you are unbelievably coward and an idiot.

              If you believed there was a problem at the show and a horse being harmed, you could and should have done something right then and there.

              Not behind closed door, not behind a screen name, not behind someone’s back.

              This is very childish, are you 13?
              ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

              Originally posted by LauraKY
              I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
              HORSING mobile training app

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

                Yes, they were doing this in front of people, probably about 10 to 15 watching. Started with the thought maybe it doesn’t like to be sprayed. A couple people really started watching when the front leg needed to be picked up to allow this to continue. It was still trying to pick up the hind when the front was held up. Horse was dancing around in pain, not annoyed because it was getting sprayed. There is a difference.

                All 4 legs were white and blindingly beautifully white before the “cleaning” started. No dust, no yellow, no footing on them. Interestingly the front legs were not wiped, only the hind legs. Did I mention you could see the clipper track marks (painful looking scabs) from 15 feet away?

                I looked up who the trainer was. Not local to me but you better believe anyone considering sending their horse there will be told what we saw. They can then make their choice on how they would like to proceed.

                (oh, and pretty sure it pulled a rail in the class... a couple did and I think this was one of them)
                So now there are scabs. And since the horse had blindingly beautiful white legs, he obviously hadn't schooled yet, which makes the idea that this was nefarious even more out there. And you're pretty sure he might have pulled a rail. And everyone thinking of sending their horse to him will ask you.
                *****
                You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                  It's entirely possible the horse is drugged to be clipped every time. Also, my pony still thinks fly spray is going to murder him despite being sprayed daily all summer.
                  I think being sprayed and being clipped are different things. And what I meant (and still think) is that any horse who has been around the block as much as a show hunter has, has learned to accept spraying. This horse objected enough that another groom held up a front leg to keep him still. I wasn't there to see what the horse was doing, of course, but I can't see a professional groom not being able to get the spraying done by himself with a horse who as just a little bit uncooperative.

                  I tend to think that most pros (or their grooms) are like me: They know that sprays and clipping will be in the horse's job description and try to teach him to accept those things.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                    Eq riders, rather than hunters, but still, many rails dropped. So looks like that's a thing for sure.

                    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...hip-commentary
                    No, absolutely not comparable.

                    Horses at Eq finals are usually older GP campaigners coming down the backside of their careers. The move and jump like what they are--- well-bred horses who move well, but who have seen some mileage. And they are tired at those finals. Ti-rd. But they are professionals who do the job and jump what they are told.

                    A hunter (or derby horse?) really doesn't have the same constraints put on his body. He really ought to leave all the rails up in a way that a flat-jumping, older and tired horse might not.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Wow, I have never heard of this happening and will be sure to keep on the lookout from now on. Eek!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by mvp View Post

                        I think being sprayed and being clipped are different things. And what I meant (and still think) is that any horse who has been around the block as much as a show hunter has, has learned to accept spraying.
                        In general, yes. But not every horse. This could well have been one of the exceptions. Some horses are weird. Just because show horses in large part are fine doesn’t mean every individual is.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by mvp View Post

                          I think being sprayed and being clipped are different things. And what I meant (and still think) is that any horse who has been around the block as much as a show hunter has, has learned to accept spraying. This horse objected enough that another groom held up a front leg to keep him still. I wasn't there to see what the horse was doing, of course, but I can't see a professional groom not being able to get the spraying done by himself with a horse who as just a little bit uncooperative.

                          I tend to think that most pros (or their grooms) are like me: They know that sprays and clipping will be in the horse's job description and try to teach him to accept those things.
                          Have you ever been to the Royal?

                          You would know that there is no space, nor time, to move/fool much around.

                          If it was faster and safer for everyone, that a leg must be held up, that’s what and why they did/needed to do.

                          Despite all the best training in the world, some horses just don’t like their legs to be sprayed, add show atmosphere in there and voilà.

                          I truly don’t see the big deal about it.

                          If there was so much concerns, there was 10-15 people around to say something. And the TD is almost/always present.
                          ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                          Originally posted by LauraKY
                          I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                          HORSING mobile training app

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                            Why haven’t you said something, to a TD perhaps - as there is always one not too far from warming up rings?

                            Shame on YOU all for not intervening if the horse was indeed in pain.

                            .....

                            The only thing I believe is that you are trash talking a trainer behind their back and under a pseudo because you are unbelievably coward and an idiot.

                            If you believed there was a problem at the show and a horse being harmed, you could and should have done something right then and there.

                            Not behind closed door, not behind a screen name, not behind someone’s back.

                            This is very childish, are you 13?
                            Wow, Alibi, that is some pretty hateful and strong language. Disappointed to read this from you. It is not appropriate for you to attack me. I’m not 13 (did not join this board at 0 years old) nor a coward or idiot. Plus boomer, there are plenty of 13 year olds around who have useful insight.

                            As I have not identified the culprit, I am not attacking them. I will relay what I saw - I including the fact that it did not look right to us, to anyone who is considering that trainer. Merely reporting on what we saw. Those individual can then choose how or to what degree they decide to consider what I saw or further investigate the trainer to see if their values align with them. Nothing wrong with that. To be honest, I wish I had thought quickly enough to record it. That would have been the smart thing to do.

                            There was no TD or official present. If there was, I would have quietly asked them to take a look and confirm if this was or was not acceptable. It did not look right to me, or those around, but I’m not an official. As others pointed out, what exactly did you want me to report? Are derbys run under rules that forbid this? Maybe we can plant you at the hitching and you can keep an eye on them all.

                            (And by we I mean the people I attended with who were also concerned)

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #74
                              Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                              If there was so much concerns, there was 10-15 people around to say something. And the TD is almost/always present.
                              How do you know they didn’t? Were you the TD on duty that night?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

                                Yes, they were doing this in front of people, probably about 10 to 15 watching. Started with the thought maybe it doesn’t like to be sprayed. A couple people really started watching when the front leg needed to be picked up to allow this to continue. It was still trying to pick up the hind when the front was held up. Horse was dancing around in pain, not annoyed because it was getting sprayed. There is a difference.

                                All 4 legs were white and blindingly beautifully white before the “cleaning” started. No dust, no yellow, no footing on them. Interestingly the front legs were not wiped, only the hind legs. Did I mention you could see the clipper track marks (painful looking scabs) from 15 feet away?

                                I looked up who the trainer was. Not local to me but you better believe anyone considering sending their horse there will be told what we saw. They can then make their choice on how they would like to proceed.

                                (oh, and pretty sure it pulled a rail in the class... a couple did and I think this was one of them)
                                How do you know he was "in pain", and not just dan
                                cing around cuz he doesn't want to be sprayed?

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  This is a very interesting discussion. Usually when something unusual is brought up on COTH as an example of possible cheating behaviour and a few folks chime in that they have seen it done IRL, then everyone tends to go oh my, I've never seen that done but will keep an eye out for it.

                                  Obviously we will never know for sure what the deal was with this particular horse and trainer. And the trainer hasn't been identified. But there is enough evidence here that this can be used to sore a horse. As far as reporting things to the show staff, step one if you see something new and odd is to verify whether this might actually be cheating which is what OP is doing here. I would wager that many people at shows don't report questionable behaviour because the moment is fleeting, reporting is difficult, or they aren't sure what is actually against the rules versus just bad horsemanship.

                                  To the folks that are resistant to the idea, are you saying that soring could never happen in this fashion ( despite a couple of posters bravely saying they have participated)? Or are you saying that soring in this fashion is Ok and just part of hunter life? Or are you saying that hunters is such a lily white sport that no bad horsemanship or cheating could ever happen?

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post

                                    How do you know they didn’t? Were you the TD on duty that night?
                                    Haven't shown hunters in eons--do they have TDs now?
                                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Scribbler people are resistant to the idea because the OP went from asking why someone would use alcohol at the ring on legs with clipper tracks to horse having large scabs not clipper tracks. The OP also KNEW (somehow) the horse was in pain and KNOWS (somehow) they were soring the horse, however instead of reporting it at the show, has instead opted to put forth her story as fact to perspective clients of said trainer.

                                      That’s poor form IMO. It’s hard to believe the OP when she didn’t lead with I saw a horse being sprayed with alcohol and the people had to hold a leg up because of large scabs and it was in pain. She asked what alcohol was used for.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by TheMoo View Post
                                        Scribbler people are resistant to the idea because the OP went from asking why someone would use alcohol at the ring on legs with clipper tracks to horse having large scabs not clipper tracks. The OP also KNEW (somehow) the horse was in pain and KNOWS (somehow) they were soring the horse, however instead of reporting it at the show, has instead opted to put forth her story as fact to perspective clients of said trainer.

                                        That’s poor form IMO. It’s hard to believe the OP when she didn’t lead with I saw a horse being sprayed with alcohol and the people had to hold a leg up because of large scabs and it was in pain. She asked what alcohol was used for.
                                        Ok the slow lead in with additional details.

                                        I agree we can never know about this horse.

                                        But I'm curious why people are so resistant to the idea this is an actual form of cheating. Surely it's possible to say "we don't fully believe your story about this trainer but yes some trainers do cheat this way."

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                                          Ok the slow lead in with additional details.

                                          I agree we can never know about this horse.

                                          But I'm curious why people are so resistant to the idea this is an actual form of cheating. Surely it's possible to say "we don't fully believe your story about this trainer but yes some trainers do cheat this way."
                                          People aren’t resistant to the idea that people attempt to cheat in this manner they are resistant to the idea that this it was was going on with this horse.

                                          I have no clue how this would help a horse go clean, and I have no clue how someone could not know the difference between clipper tracks and large scabs.

                                          Comment

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