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PPE frustration!

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  • PPE frustration!

    Presently horse shopping with a pretty healthy budget but everything is coming up with OCD and chips in PPE's!

    What are you ok with?

    Typically I am getting 2/3 vets saying no, and 1/3 saying it's fine. Frustrating, especially on things that I really like!

    I am looking for a hunter, preferably baby green ready for pre green.

    And a jumpers, either a really easy young ones with 1.15 experience at minimum, and/or something with 1.25/1.30 under 12 years old.

    What would you allow for these types of horses PPE wise as resales, leases?

    Even though I am not entirely looking for a resale, it's always great to have that option! What about leases? If you are paying to lease something.. what would you be ok with?

  • #2
    I have been in your shoes. Rely on YOUR vet's opinion. Had one vet who did a ppe tell me the OCD was non surgical, but then my vet said as soon as he landed in the US he would need surgery. Go with your vet, as that is the one who will be dealing with the horse long term.

    I do buy young horses as prospects so I am okay with small things, like a small spur, or small arthritic changes. I don't do OCDs in young horses, floating chips, or changes that could significantly impact their career length. I am very critical on a young horse as you do not have a show record or know what their tolerance is yet.

    As a trainer I am more okay with horses that are older, sound, and have a long USEF record doing their job that I am buying them for and having issues. As long as there is proof that they can do their job it is more worth the risk.

    Keep looking, you will eventually find one, although it does suck to spend $$ on vettings that don't work. I typically go X-ray by X-ray, and let the vet doing the ppe ahead of time know that, so we stop if anything significant shows up and have my vet review it, that way we all save money. Have had instances where we didn't get past one X-ray.

    Best of luck!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by iJump View Post
      Presently horse shopping with a pretty healthy budget but everything is coming up with OCD and chips in PPE's!

      What are you ok with?

      Typically I am getting 2/3 vets saying no, and 1/3 saying it's fine. Frustrating, especially on things that I really like!

      I am looking for a hunter, preferably baby green ready for pre green.

      And a jumpers, either a really easy young ones with 1.15 experience at minimum, and/or something with 1.25/1.30 under 12 years old.

      What would you allow for these types of horses PPE wise as resales, leases?

      Even though I am not entirely looking for a resale, it's always great to have that option! What about leases? If you are paying to lease something.. what would you be ok with?
      I agree with OutsidersOpinion choose a vet who you respect, preferably someone that specializes in lameness and H/J and follow his advice. Tell the vet what the intended use is for the horse. Will you keep or resell? Many vets will tolerate some issues if you intend to keep the horse, but will be harsher if you intend to resell the horse. Make sure your vet is aware of the job the horse is currently performing.

      In many instances, your vet may not be performing the actual PPE, so it is always helpful if you are able to share some video of all three gaits with your vet as well as conformation shots.

      The suggestion about asking the vet that is attending the PPE to halt the PPE if they find an irregularity in the radiographs is a good one. Once the PPE is halted, the clinical findings and the radiographs that were taken are sent to your vet and he/she will evaluate. If your vet is unconcerned by the irregularity, a second appointment will be needed to take the rest of the radiographs. You'll be charged for a second farm call and possibly a second imaging setup fee, but in the long run, this approach is gentler to your PPE budget.

      If you and/or the vet are on the fence over a questionable radiograph, you can consider using the imperfect PPE as leverage to negotiate a lease with the lease fee applied toward purchase price. If the seller agrees to a lease, make sure the lease allows you to return the horse to the seller and receive a pro rata refund if the chip/OCD (or whatever is at issue) causes the horse to become unsound and unable to perform his job during the lease period. As for lease prices, a year lease is generally 1/3 the price of the horse. A shorter lease will typically be more expensive on a pro rata basis.

      Vets will be more forgiving of irregular radiographs if the horse is doing its job, and staying sound. A lease can be a good way for the buyer to feel comfortable that the irregular radiograph won't hinder a horse's ability to perform.

      You might be surprised how many horses that are performing and winning have less than pristine radiographs.

      Best of luck!

      Comment


      • #4
        It really is all about what issues you can tolerate, and what you cannot live with. You also need a vet you can trust to be upfront with you.

        I purchased a pregreen horse (that many people on here have probably heard of) for way less that what he was worth. He'd been passed over several times partially because he had a chip in his hock. But I knew he'd done 20 horses shows the last year in the 3'3" and hadn't had any issues with it. My vet also x-rayed and told me he didn't think it would cause an issue and if it ever did that the chip was operable. So I bought him, had a ton of success with him and then turned around an sold him a couple years later for a nice profit.

        The horse in Germany I vetted that had rotation in the pedal bone at only 4 years old? Hard Pass.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          I never thought about stopping rads at any irregular images.

          I typically do the PPE with the flexions, if negative on all flexions I'll do rads of front feet, all fetlocks, hocks and just started doing stifles.

          If they test positive on a flexion I will do images of that joint first.

          But, the horses not flexing positive are coming up with things in rads.

          With chips.. what locations are more of a concern for you?

          Comment


          • #6
            I also typically have the vet on the phone with me after the first round of a pre-purchase, vital signs and flexions.

            Frequently with a horse who is doing its job well, and is over 10 years old, we choose to do fewer x-rays unless something over “2” on a flexion pops up. Then we Investigate.

            I ask the vet to hold the PPE and call me if there is something outside the normal range on an x-ray.
            If We really like the horse, we may proceed with the rest of the x-rays unless the thing found is really horrible. If it’s a deal-breaker, we walk.
            if it’s something of concern, but the flexion is good, and the horse is working at the level we plan on achieving, we continue with the series (IF there aren’t lots more films to do)...Then we send that funky film off to a radiologist.
            If it is something that is of concern, but not really horrifying, we will continue with the rest of the x-rays because Frequently they having a second vet call is going to rack up the bill if more than three or four more shots.

            Years ago, purchased a four-year-old Mare who had a small chip outside of the joint in her rt front fetlock. My vet, a grand prix Rider, told me if I liked her, buy her, because it was an easy surgery if it ever becomes an issue. This horse was made of iron, was conditioned on rock logging roads, and never developed so much as a wind puff anywhere, and the chip itself sat there is the same exact place for her PPE when I sold her. Since she had been sound for ten years, there was no way I would modify the price due to the chip.

            personally, I would be more concerned about chips in the Stifles. Somewhat less about chips in the hock, depending on location and size, and also somewhat less about chips in the fetlock depending on location and size.

            Looking forward to resale is is a serious element of concern.

            One of my worst horse shopping experiences involved trying out a lovely, well bred Dutch gelding, for my ammy owner client.
            Priced under market value by very wealthy Owner because she said she was more concerned about the home than price. She remarked offhandedly that they had had OCD surgery done on one hock, prophylactically, to remove a small chip before it became an issue.

            After wrangling for days with her to get that records released to my vet,during which we were pressured to buy him because she said she was sending him to a dealer in Wa State “that week”, I ultimately said I would drive to her vet’s office to collect them myself. Miraculously, they were instantly transferred to my vet.

            Turns out that the Horse had a two year history of injections and stall rest, with a “3” irregularity in its gait evaluations.

            AND....had OCD surgery on both STIFLES in Holland, prior to import.

            The only way that was discovered was after the seller’s vet shaved the area to prep for the current surgery, which was performed. It was all in his surgical notes.
            So we were lied to about which joint… And stifles are a MUCH bigger deal than Hock OCD, were told ONE hock had been done, and furthermore there had been two surgeries on a supposedly sound horse. Needless to say we passed.

            This seller was also a grand prix rider, a breeder, a multi-millionaire and winery owner.
            And a POS.
            The horse appeared on the dealer’s website the next month. I do not assume that the dealer knew anything about the history of the horse. I assume that the seller omitted this information, so the dealer would not have the opportunity to misrepresent him intentionally .

            Comment


            • #7
              There are no guarantees, of anything, when you are buying a horse, no matter how much you are paying for the horse. Different vets will find different things on the same horse, and have differing opinions on how important these findings that they think they have found may be, and those things may or may not effect the use of the horse in the future. When you truly accept these things, you will find it far easier to buy horses, and will probably pay less for them LOL.

              Sorry. I don't vet horses for prepurchase any more. I did for a while, a number of decades ago. But have learned to accept these things, risks. Works for me. If you can not make up your own mind about a horse, and the risks involved with purchasing it, then you must take the advice of a licensed veterinarian that you trust and respect. Good luck.
              www.cordovafarm.weebly.com

              Comment


              • #8


                Keep looking, you will eventually find one, although it does suck to spend $$ on vettings that don't work. I typically go X-ray by X-ray, and let the vet doing the ppe ahead of time know that, so we stop if anything significant shows up and have my vet review it, that way we all save money. Have had instances where we didn't get past one X-ray.

                Best of luck![/QUOTE]

                It does suck, but not as much as finding out later, during a buyers PPE that the horse has some issue that you didn't know about, and it kills the sale. Rather waste $1-3k on a bad PPE, than 10's of thousands on a horse that will never pass

                Comment


                • #9
                  My friend and I traveled to Germany together with our trainer to import jumpers. She was needing a confidence builder and chose a super reliable gelding. In the PPE, the horse had a bone chip in his hock, which ended with his price being extremely reduced. The horse I fell in with was a hot young mare with wins into M**. She had perfectly clean x-rays (crazy clean, as my vet said). After one very successful show season, my friend decided to remove the bone chip for no reason other than longevity. Despite learning when they went into surgery that this horse had a hock surgery done before, much to the surprise of the previous and current owners, he came out of it sound and moved his rider into 1.30m that summer. My mare, on the other hand, came up lame and we ended up needing to have her MRI-ed... turns out, she has extensive osteoarthritis that wouldn’t show up on x-rays and is slowly returning to soundness after nine months off.

                  If you have stayed with me thus far, the moral of the story for me is that horse buying is inherently dangerous, minor bone chips are not necessarily a means to dismiss a prospect, and clean x-rays don’t mean smooth sailing. Of course, listen to your vet, I just wanted to share this experience, take from it what you may.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I agree with much of what has been said already. The relationship and trust in a good vet is imperative. Vetting many horses is extremely commonplace unless you are willing to take the gamble and live with any findings. Unfortunately most of the horses that are priced attractively for resale do have some type of issue(s). Best of luck!
                    Westbrook Farm
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, like everyone else has said......it depends.

                      But ultimately I listen to MY vet, no matter how much doom and gloom (or rainbow and sunshine) the other vet/vets is/are projecting (if there's another vet involved).

                      But on the whole, I'm usually pretty ok with chips and "things" in a PPE on a sound horse....for my own personal horses. When I'm buying youngsters for resale, however, I do have a much higher bar for what I consider acceptable. Fortunately, my vet and agents in Germany understands that and tell me "yes" or "no" very affirmatively on each horse! But with an older horse with mileage and time in the ring, the soundness is ultimately what I care the most about.

                      I have a 9yo mare now who was passed over as a 2yo by another buyer for having small "hooks" in her hocks. My vet said, "no problem, even if they grow they're on the lateral side of the hock and won't cause problems." Sure enough, the mare is 9yo and has won everything through the 1.40m and hasn't taken a funny step yet. Could cause pause when I sell her, but sound mare with 6 years showing heavily makes it an easy decision from my seller perspective.

                      As far as sale versus lease goes, there's no issue that I would consider "an issue" for a lease horse. Someone leasing isn't taking a risk....they'll be handing the horse back to you either way. So if the horse is sound and performing, a PPE finding wouldn't change anything (or shouldn't change anything anyway....guess there's no predicting crazy sometimes). Typically in a lease, the PPE is to set a baseline that can be looked at if something happens and/or when the horse is handed back.
                      __________________________________
                      Flying F Sport Horses
                      Horses in the NW

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would be much more likely to be accepting of small issues during a PPE if the horse is sound and has been doing their job consistently. Not so much on a younger horse, or unproven horse. However, you can find something wrong on just about any horse you ever vet, so its all about trusting your PPE vet, understanding what acceptable risks are for you, and what are hard passes, which is very personal and dependent on you, your expectations of the horse in it's job, whether you be possibly reselling down the line, etc. Good luck OP I know it can be frustrating!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It the horse is sound, flexes clean, and has been doing the job you expect him to do in a similarly intense show/training situation for 2 years, I'll accept quite a bit of x-ray weirdness. This is even more true when the owner has an old x-ray to prove the issue is stable/unchanged over a period of time.

                          In a relatively green horse in its first year of work, or in the process of moving up the levels, I'm super picky.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            While the x rays can give you some insight the way the horse moves can really paint the picture.

                            How are the gaits? Does the horse move fluidly with the entire body? Any one limb or hip stand out? How does the horse react when you touch it in the back, neck etc?

                            A PPE is only part of the horse shopping process. A gut feeling and a good look at the horse can tell you a lot.
                            Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Is it not standard to do some sort of PPE when paying for a lease?

                              I always have, but perhaps because there is always the 'no refund' in the leases I have signed.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
                                Years ago, purchased a four-year-old Mare who had a small chip outside of the joint in her rt front fetlock. My vet, a grand prix Rider, told me if I liked her, buy her, because it was an easy surgery if it ever becomes an issue. This horse was made of iron, was conditioned on rock logging roads, and never developed so much as a wind puff anywhere, and the chip itself sat there is the same exact place for her PPE when I sold her. Since she had been sound for ten years, there was no way I would modify the price due to the chip.

                                personally, I would be more concerned about chips in the Stifles. Somewhat less about chips in the hock, depending on location and size, and also somewhat less about chips in the fetlock depending on location and size.
                                Generally speaking, I agree. Of course it depends on the horse in front of you and intended use and workload. I would not automatically pass on a young unproven horse if they had a small fetlock chip outside the joint, but definitely would get my vet’s opinion. Of course any findings could mean an adjustment of the horses value, depending on circumstances.

                                OCDs are rampant in WBs so it’s not surprising you are running into this. I just wish sellers would get baseline rads done and roll it into the sale price so buyers can have a reasonable starting place to pass or investigate further. Really sucks to spend all that money on rads only to end up walking away. It really adds up.

                                The advice of stopping the PPE as soon as anything comes up is good. Doesn’t always help when it comes up on the second last view though, I know how that goes.

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