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Horse suddenly went crazy and changed entirely being ridden

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  • #21
    Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
    If there is no lameness or obvious problem on a standard vet exam, when I see stuff that is so one-sided like this, I can't help but think of a neurological issue, especially with all the acting out. I also wouldn't rule out ulcers with the change in barns and some of the extreme behavior. But ulcers would not explain why one lead is ok and one is not. Especially considering that he's always sort of had a problem with one side, I think some kind of neurologic impingement, like a neck problem. Either that or there is something that you ought to be able to find with further lameness diagnostics like a bone scan.
    I agree with this.... based on your description, the first thing I thought was neuro... maybe KS, maybe some arthritis in the neck. Depending on where you live, is there a very good sports medicine vet or university hospital you can take him to for a full workup?

    In the meantime, I'd stop all riding and training, maybe change his turnout routine and feeding regimen, and schedule an appointment with a haul-in type clinic with excellent imaging equipment and vets experienced in this kind of thing.
    A good man can make you feel sexy, strong, and able to take on the world.... oh, sorry.... that's wine...wine does that...

    http://elementfarm.blogspot.com/

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    • #22
      I've seen a very successful horse do this after 3/4 weeks of a new saddle.

      Along with checking medical stuff, check your saddle fit.

      Comment


      • #23
        I agree with what everyone has suggested. First, stop riding or training of any kind. Second, get a GOOD veterinarian out. Could be ulcers, pain (pretty sure this could be the case, he is screaming at you to listen with his escalating behavior. Listen to him!), or the turnout/grain change however, I would rule out physical issues first. I would also get a saddle fitter out to check saddle fit.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by theninfea View Post
          We called the same vet who did him the injections, he prescribed us painkillers for 3 days, he said if it doesnt work then its all in his head. T
          I just have to say how appalled I am that a vet would come to this conclusion and the lack of knowledge they seem to have in regards to equine behavior. If it was me, I would find a different veterinarian. A horse's behavior doesn't just change for no reason. It is often a sign of pain. SuzieQNutter said it best:
          Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post
          He started off talking to say something was wrong. Then he started yelling. Now he is screaming. Are you going to listen?
          I agree with everyone else. This horse needs a full work up in order to figure out what is wrong. He is in pain somewhere and has been trying to tell his humans for quite awhile.

          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
          Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
          www.EquineAppraisers.com

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          • #25
            Stop riding for now. It's not "in your horse's head" and any vet that said something like that in this situation would never be hearing from me again, personally.

            It also sounds neurological or spinal-pain related to me, but it's hard to say without getting a vet to do a full work up. FWIW, my horse "tried to murder" me a few times, as well. It was an escalation of more subtle signs he'd been giving me that his saddle didn't fit well and he had kissing spine. He was screaming at me to get me to listen.

            Please don't start and stop ulcer treatment, as if ulcers are an issue, short treatment can, at best, have no impact, and would probably make it worse (though you could do a full course of treatment and taper it properly and see if that has any effect). You could definite try a bute test to see if that helps, but honestly, I would do as others suggest and get a really good vet involved. Even better would be taking horse to a university, if possible.

            Your horse isn't trying to hurt you. He is trying to tell you that HE hurts and he needs your compassion and help. I hope you are able to figure it out and get back on track with your goals for him!

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Daventry View Post

              I just have to say how appalled I am that a vet would come to this conclusion and the lack of knowledge they seem to have in regards to equine behavior.
              I'd be willing to bet this was trainers interpretation of vet's account. It is a fairly mainstream ruling out process to prescribe maximum bute to a horse with a severe behavior problem that does not present as obviously lame or show obvious pain upon exam especially in a low budget situation. If max bute helps, you have a pain issue and you need to do further diagnostics (and can coax people to come up with the funds for it).

              Frequently, owner cannot drop everything to meet vet and so trainer handles the appointment, and then relays info to owner. Unless owner is proactive and reaches out to vet for 1st person follow up, owner may never actually speak to vet, only pay the bill. Most people trust their trainer as an extension of their vet. I think OP should not.

              Agreed that based on OP's description of problems while riding, trainer is an unqualified idiot, possibly sadistic, definitely showing zero regard for safety and welfare of horse and human.

              Power to the People

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              • #27
                The horse is now screaming that he's in some kind of pain or physical distress. Test him for EPM, and I'd also have the vet do a blood test for lyme disease, which can, untreated, create neurological symptoms.

                As others have posted, if you continue to ride him without investigating health issues, both of you will get hurt.
                Last edited by Posting Trot; Oct. 31, 2019, 01:22 PM.
                "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

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                • #28
                  I'll echo some already stated things and add:
                  If he is getting less hay and more grain, he could not only be fresh but also have ulcers. how much turnout does he get vs his prior home.
                  could be neurologic problem as you've described it.
                  could be his eyes.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I have a friend who breeds, raises and shows horses in Europe. There are forms of epm and lyme, same thing only different. I don't recall what they are called, but are 2 forms of neuro illnesses.

                    as an aside, if you have ever seen a horse that the owner allowed EPM to go untreated, and it hits the brain, look out. it's terrifying and heart breaking. we had some people move a horse in that had many of the same behaviors the OP is describing. I suggested the horses behavior was abnormal, they told me no, this is how he always is .....didn't want to hear that he was not normal. went untreated until the protozoa hit the brain at a small horse show around here. A NIHJA show. people just tried to medicate him through his issues. I am glad and sad I wasn't there at the time, would have loved to rip the owners a new one
                    Horse just went ballistic for no reason in it's stall, got out and ran around the show grounds trying to beat it's head with it's front legs, in utter distress. Fortunately, no humans were hurt. After a lot of drama horse was sedated and sent to the vet, where he was euthanized after a day or 2 of arguing with the owner.
                    weird behavior or training issues? test your horses people!!

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Look up EDM (and yes, EDM, not EPM)
                      The Chronicle recently wrote a big article about this.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Can someone explain me how to quote multiple people's messages? So i can answer everyone there and update about this situation!

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by theninfea View Post
                          Can someone explain me how to quote multiple people's messages? So i can answer everyone there and update about this situation!
                          Click "Quote" underneath the person's comment you want to quote. It'll highlight to Orange. You can choose multiple posts to quote.

                          EDM Article:

                          http://read.uberflip.com/i/1089065-march-11-18-2019/33

                          Em
                          "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

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                          • #33
                            Full lameness and neuro exam is a good place to start.
                            As for EPM, it is WAY overdiagnosed. It is actually quite rare, but horse people like to explain every issue with that diagnosis.
                            Von Hendrix aka Jimi

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by mckenna310 View Post
                              Full lameness and neuro exam is a good place to start.
                              As for EPM, it is WAY overdiagnosed. It is actually quite rare, but horse people like to explain every issue with that diagnosis.
                              You obviously don't live in the Midwest! We have titers taken for horses exhibiting any kind of abnormal behavior, and roughly 30% of the 50ish horses in the barn have had titers from 33% to 95%. Possums are as common as cats around here, and where there are possums, there's epm
                              The vets are seeing an uptick in this, possibly due to warmer, wetter winters with less long lasting snow cover.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
                                If there is no lameness or obvious problem on a standard vet exam, when I see stuff that is so one-sided like this, I can't help but think of a neurological issue, especially with all the acting out. I also wouldn't rule out ulcers with the change in barns and some of the extreme behavior. But ulcers would not explain why one lead is ok and one is not. Especially considering that he's always sort of had a problem with one side, I think some kind of neurologic impingement, like a neck problem. Either that or there is something that you ought to be able to find with further lameness diagnostics like a bone scan.
                                I agree with this. I JUST had to put down my heart horse with Temporohyoid osteoarthropathy. Not saying this is what you are experiencing, but my horse also had very strong one-sided tendencies that got worse. The really bad signs were literally overnight—nystagmus in both eyes, difficulty standing, runniung in circles, and some panic. If your guy tests clean for EPM, EVH-1, every infectious disease that you vaccinate for and his vital signs are normal—I'd lean toward a neurological cause too. My guy had COMPLETELY normal vital signs, every test came back normal, and he could even eat. But he was too unstable to transport and his only option was head surgery.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  First of all, this horse seems fairly committed to being dangerous to ride at this time. I would completely stop riding him and focus your funds and time on a veterinary work-up. Even if his problem is not physical, I think his brain might also need a hard reset.

                                  I would have a good Vet (2nd opinion) do a thorough lameness & neuro exam. Have them take radiographs of his thoracic & lumbar spine... I would even check his cervical spine (neck). I would also do a gastroscope to check for ulcers. If any neuro abnormalities, checking for EPM is a good plan. (Just keep in mind.. 30-60% of all horses will test false positive based on exposure alone.. you would need a spinal tap for definitive diagnosis).
                                  One more thing to consider (neuro exam findings would help point to this) would be trigeminal neuralgia. It’s pretty rare.. but horses with this type of nerve pain act completely unhinged & dangerous.. often causing behaviors like you are describing. Kissing spine horses will bolt & rear commonly as well.

                                  if nothing is revealed with those initial steps, bone scan might be very helpful.

                                  I would strongly advise plenty of hay in a nibble net and less grain. Intermittent hay boluses and large grain meals really sets them up for ulcers. Ground work, while you’re working on figuring this out, would also be great for his brain and helpful in keeping your bond with him. Good luck..

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by aascvt View Post
                                    First of all, this horse seems fairly committed to being dangerous to ride at this time. I would completely stop riding him and focus your funds and time on a veterinary work-up. Even if his problem is not physical, I think his brain might also need a hard reset.

                                    I would have a good Vet (2nd opinion) do a thorough lameness & neuro exam. Have them take radiographs of his thoracic & lumbar spine... I would even check his cervical spine (neck). I would also do a gastroscope to check for ulcers. If any neuro abnormalities, checking for EPM is a good plan. (Just keep in mind.. 30-60% of all horses will test false positive based on exposure alone.. you would need a spinal tap for definitive diagnosis).
                                    One more thing to consider (neuro exam findings would help point to this) would be trigeminal neuralgia. It’s pretty rare.. but horses with this type of nerve pain act completely unhinged & dangerous.. often causing behaviors like you are describing. Kissing spine horses will bolt & rear commonly as well.

                                    if nothing is revealed with those initial steps, bone scan might be very helpful.

                                    I would strongly advise plenty of hay in a nibble net and less grain. Intermittent hay boluses and large grain meals really sets them up for ulcers. Ground work, while you’re working on figuring this out, would also be great for his brain and helpful in keeping your bond with him. Good luck..
                                    First of all thank you for considering this case
                                    I live in europe, precisely in Italy, and we have no cases of EPM, my horse is vaccinated for many diseases and he doesnt compete outside that much (let alone being out of europe) so i would leave out that possibility, especially cause how could the vet who came 3 weeks ago not notice a chance of this disease even without specific exams? Second, this reasoning is the same for the kissing spine. He was checked by another vet when we bought him 3 years ago, and i think kissing spine is not something you cannot notice lounging him ? how can 2 vets not notice anything? Im much more inclined towards ulcers, back problems (ill try to switch saddle) ecc. I agree with you all that the problem at 90% isnt behavioural, and that both my trainer and vet are letting me down on this.

                                    As regard the turnout, in the other barn he had only one day in the paddock (even smaller) too, so no big changes except the feeding which i think could be an important factor.

                                    The problem is, my trainer decided to try a new approach, which isnt that good but not entirely bad: he wants me to flat work this horse only with relaxed trot and canter, no poles, no jumps, for about a week or more. If after this week we try jumping one day and he keep balking and refusing, then he has health problems, but if he will be completely fine, the horse was probably stressed by some work we did this month like flying changes, shoulder in ecc since according to my trainer he is a very sensitive and hot tempered horse.

                                    What i wanted to do instead was letting him rest for 4-5 days, then try to flat work him as a last resort and if the resting did not work i would call a third vet, possibly i would even bring him to my University ( i study veterinary!) for the professors equipe.
                                    For sure im letting him rest today and tomorrow too, and i would really like to follow my plan more but my parents agree with my trainer and i dont have that much of a choice, especially cause my father is more inclined to fix this as a behaviour problem to not spend so much money in vet..
                                    Also, we decided to prolungate the phenylbutazone administration, shouldnt this let him not feel the pain by many problems you quoted, like kissing spine, arthritis or ulcers or does it act on an inflammation basis only?

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by theninfea View Post

                                      First of all thank you for considering this case
                                      I live in europe, precisely in Italy, and we have no cases of EPM, my horse is vaccinated for many diseases and he doesnt compete outside that much (let alone being out of europe) so i would leave out that possibility, especially cause how could the vet who came 3 weeks ago not notice a chance of this disease even without specific exams? Second, this reasoning is the same for the kissing spine. He was checked by another vet when we bought him 3 years ago, and i think kissing spine is not something you cannot notice lounging him ? how can 2 vets not notice anything? Im much more inclined towards ulcers, back problems (ill try to switch saddle) ecc. I agree with you all that the problem at 90% isnt behavioural, and that both my trainer and vet are letting me down on this.

                                      As regard the turnout, in the other barn he had only one day in the paddock (even smaller) too, so no big changes except the feeding which i think could be an important factor.

                                      The problem is, my trainer decided to try a new approach, which isnt that good but not entirely bad: he wants me to flat work this horse only with relaxed trot and canter, no poles, no jumps, for about a week or more. If after this week we try jumping one day and he keep balking and refusing, then he has health problems, but if he will be completely fine, the horse was probably stressed by some work we did this month like flying changes, shoulder in ecc since according to my trainer he is a very sensitive and hot tempered horse.

                                      What i wanted to do instead was letting him rest for 4-5 days, then try to flat work him as a last resort and if the resting did not work i would call a third vet, possibly i would even bring him to my University ( i study veterinary!) for the professors equipe.
                                      For sure im letting him rest today and tomorrow too, and i would really like to follow my plan more but my parents agree with my trainer and i dont have that much of a choice, especially cause my father is more inclined to fix this as a behaviour problem to not spend so much money in vet..
                                      Also, we decided to prolungate the phenylbutazone administration, shouldnt this let him not feel the pain by many problems you quoted, like kissing spine, arthritis or ulcers or does it act on an inflammation basis only?
                                      Did the vet consider EDM, as some mentioned above?

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I would get a Lyme's test done (apologize if someone already suggested)...

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          The bute will make ulcers worse. Will help with musculoskeletal pain but may only scratch the surface of back pain/kissing spine.

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