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Trainer drugged my horse... WWYD? Updated

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  • kirbydog,

    I get that you're passionate about this issue and that you have a strong opinion. But the relationship between the OP's situation and yours is tenuous at best.

    Is there any evidence that the OP is part of this circuit? Or even lives in the same part of the country?

    And your chief complaint seems to be about drugging as cheating and substituting sedatives for training; which is not at all what the OP is complaining about (sedating for hauling unnecessarily and without permission.)

    If someone posts about sedating for clipping, will you post about your experiences on your local circuit there?

    Do you post on all threads about trainers drugging horses about your experience with your local circuit? If so, why? And do you understand that climbing on your soapbox in a thread with the thinnest connection to your situation doesn't help make your case and in fact, undermines your credibility?
    Last edited by McGurk; Nov. 4, 2019, 09:38 AM.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sswor View Post

      No one was talking to you but clearly you're just here for the fighting so don't let that get in your way of your bloodsport.
      Meow. I think you forgot “ I know you are, but what am I?” I have no dog in this fight, but thank you for demonstrating your inability to have an intelligent conversation. Carry on with your catty insults, ma’am.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by McGurk View Post
        kirbydog,

        I get that you're passionate about this issue and that you have a strong opinion. But the relationship between the OP's situation and yours is tenuous at best.

        Is there any evidence that the OP is part of this circuit? Or even lives in the same part of the country?

        And your chief complaint seems to be about drugging as cheating and substituting sedatives for training; which is not at all what the OP is complaining about (sedating for hauling unnecessarily and without permission.)

        If someone starts about sedating for clipping, will you post about your experiences on your local circuit there?

        Do you post on all threads about trainers drugging horses about your experience with your local circuit? If so, why? And do you understand that climbing on your soapbox in a thread with the thinnest connection to your situation doesn't help make your case and in fact, undermines your credibility?
        You are correct.
        That's why I am done It just really gets my back up when the assumption is made all A circuit trainers, or trainers in general, are evil.
        I will say no more

        Comment


        • Originally posted by masiek View Post
          Hello all. Surprised at the following and replies this thread has gained. Thanks everyone for your replies. I did speak the the trainer today and asked her directly if she gave my horse Ace to ship that day. As I expected she did not deny it but very matter of factly said yes, she did. I told her that I was not happy about this and did not want my horse drugged without my knowledge or consent. She said no problem and that she would not administer any drugs again without my explicit permission.

          Still not happy that she originally omitted this fact. Trying to decide what my next move is.
          Only you know this trainer, so none of us can advise you 100% as to what you should do. On one hand, this trainer may have a lot of clients that don't know enough to be able to make a good decision re: medicating or not medicating, and/or may have a lot of clients that expect the trainer to manage medications and don't feel the need to be informed. Also, if she had any indications that your horse was a nervous traveller, she was in the position of being responsible for getting a bunch of horses to a show in a manner that insured that they were all calm and ready to show, not rattled or sweaty. Transporting horses safely and well is a big responsibility.

          I think the real questions are as yet unanswered. Will this trainer indeed respect your wishes and involve you if medication is necessary? What is this trainer's real mindset about medications? (Yes, there are some trainers who rely too heavily on medications.) If you and this trainer have a different mindset about medications, is that going to be too much of a clash?

          I am neither defending nor criticizing this trainer. I am simply trying to provide points that you can consider in your own evaluation of the situation.

          Comment


          • masiek Did you ask your trainer why she gave the Ace?

            It's hard to know from what you've posted, but it sounds like you may need to be a little more proactive and learn to be more confident. I would have asked for an explanation of why she gave the Ace in the first place, although I also think what you told her initially wasn't a strong enough "please don't give my horse ace."

            Trainers like this will walk all over those who aren't willing to be straight up clear with them. Be willing to set some clear boundaries ("do not give him ace" vs "he shouldn't need it") and be willing to ask some hard questions (how she answered the "why did you give it to him and why didn't you tell me?" questions would very much frame whether or not I stayed).
            Jennifer Baas
            It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
              Of course, the trainer gave it beforehand, giving acepromazine to an already upset horse doesn't work. If the horse had been presented to the trailer w/o medication, and refused to load, or thew a fit, the trainer simply calls you and advises that the horse is not going, so don't waste your time going to the show.

              I would have quiet conversation with the trainer, and with any luck, this will not happen again. Your other option is to leave.
              My thoughts exactly. ACE does not work on a horse that is already upset.

              A trainer should not give your horse injections without your explicit permission. Yes there are many things that can go wrong, even with routine injections. It is worrisome that this is a barn where giving Ace is commonplace.

              However, you do not know, until you ask (and maybe not even then), if it actually happened. I agree that using a broom to get a horse to load is not a good idea, but I've seen that and worse from many "trainers".

              You need to explicitly state, preferably in writing, that your horse will not get any injections or any drugs without your permission. Of course, I wouldn't stay at a barn where that was necessary, but perhaps there are other things that make it a good choice for you.
              Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
              EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

              Comment


              • I don't get how this has moved into pages of discussion.

                If someone drugged my horse when I told them not to, I would not have a discussion with them. Why waste the bandwidth. I would say, "Drugging my horse against my wishes is a deal breaker for me, here is my notice," and then I would give notice and find somewhere else to keep my horse.

                The only slightly mitigating issue here is that OP was wishy washy rather than direct about whether she was ok with the ace. "I don't think it's necessary" is different from "Do not ace my horse for the trailer."

                If OP feels her communication left room for interpretation, the the conversation can be very short: "I heard from another boarder that my horse was aced in for the trailer. I understand my communication was less than clear, but going forward I'd like to make clear that, barring a medical emergency, my horse should never be sedated without expressly getting clearance from me for each occurrence. I'm sure we can avoid this problem going forward." Again, we don't care about the whys or the what happened, we are just making clear that what happened, happened, and it is not to happen again. This does not need to be a "discussion."

                Clear, direct, and a minimum expenditure of bandwidth on all sides.
                The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
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                Comment


                • Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
                  Welcome to the hunter world.
                  Why I left the hunter world.
                  I worked at a well known hunter barn in Central Florida. The day before shows, this guy shows up with a bucket full of syringes and went down the barn aisle, popping the horses.
                  Needless to say, I did not stay at that barn very long.
                  Lori T
                  www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com
                  www.facebook.com/LoriTankelPhotography
                  www.facebook.com/LTEquine for product updates on the lines I rep

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lori T View Post

                    Why I left the hunter world.
                    I worked at a well known hunter barn in Central Florida. The day before shows, this guy shows up with a bucket full of syringes and went down the barn aisle, popping the horses.
                    Needless to say, I did not stay at that barn very long.


                    Could you PM me the name of the barn? Make sure that I don't recommend them to anyone locally!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lori T View Post

                      Why I left the hunter world.
                      I worked at a well known hunter barn in Central Florida. The day before shows, this guy shows up with a bucket full of syringes and went down the barn aisle, popping the horses.
                      Needless to say, I did not stay at that barn very long.
                      Not limited to hunters, unfortunately. There's dirty laundry in every discipline.
                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                      Comment


                      • I am not as black and white about drugging as other members. As presented by the OP I felt she was wishy washy and did not clearly make her preferences known to her trainer. If I remember a later post she knew the trainer was pretty free with drugs and shows. If she had a strong preference she should have clearly told the trainer that preference when it initially came up.

                        I trust my trainer and we have had discussions regarding drugs. We have had a bad couple of winters where due to weather and field conditions the horses needed to stay in for a few days straight. Yes we hand walk, yes we ride daily during that time. But for a young, fit OTTB that is used to a lot of turn-out that doesn't cut it. She has given him a little Ace prior to turn-out to make sure he doesn't injure himself or pull shoes. He was the king of ripping off shoes which would mean more stall time until the farrier can get out. However she already knows I do not need her express permission each time. It is to preserve his hooves and his soundness- which for a while was iffy and transient. I don't have a problem with that. But we had to discussion to make sure we were on the same page on when I need to be called beforehand. She always tells me later that day so I know about it. Understand she is sometimes turning out before I wake up so she will send me a text later once she knows I am awake so as not to panic me that something is wrong with one of my horses.

                        I also don't understand the whole issue with the broom. Yes I have used a broom to load if necessary. I don't hit them with the broom. I have used it to keep a horse straight so they don't step off the side of the ramp- I just hold it there to encourage them to not swing their butt or run me over. I have occasionally waved it somewhere behind a horse to provide a little bit of an incentive to unplant the feet. If it takes more than that I move to different tools but sometime that is all it takes.
                        I am not a trainer. Sometime trailer other people's horses to trail ride, new barns, paperchases, shows etc.... I do not have the luxury of teaching them to load before I pick them up for that particular event. Generally my preference is a generic Parelli stick and a rope halter but some owners are weirded out by a "whip" or rope halter. So sometimes it is easier to start with something benign like a broom rather than move to a rope halter or chain shank and stick/whip. I prefer the Parelli style stick since it is longer and stiffer than a dressage whip. Lunge whip is overkill and too flexible. Yes I picked up an OTTB off the track at the end of a meet. I used a chainshank over the gums. Not my preferred configuration but it is what that horse's regular handler recommended when I asked. I have trailered him a few times since. He now hops right on with no chain.

                        Both of my horses self load well so I don't need a broom with them. My OTTB occasionally needs a reminder with the Parelli stick that he doesn't have a choice. But at this point I normally just need to show it to him. However I have the trailer and the time to practice when I don't need to go anywhere and have all the time in the world. I also have taken the opportunity to load/unload with friend's trailers so he has seen different types before he NEEDS to load on a different style trailer. But I realize not everyone has those opportunities.

                        I don't think the broom is an evil tool. It is just that a tool. Use it two handed on their butt like a baseball bat and I have an issue. Use it to gently encourage or direct a horse as an extension of an arm- no problem. Whips, chain shanks, rope halters, lunge lines are all tools that can all be misused. For me I find the energy level and attitude makes a bigger difference than the actual tool used.
                        Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lori T View Post

                          Why I left the hunter world.
                          I worked at a well known hunter barn in Central Florida. The day before shows, this guy shows up with a bucket full of syringes and went down the barn aisle, popping the horses.
                          Needless to say, I did not stay at that barn very long.
                          So I wonder what he was giving them. If it was the day before I doubt it was a tranq or sedative. Was it something like Legend or Adequan? I don't think depo works that quickly to be effective after one day. Without knowing what it was I am withholding judgement on that one. I don't know enough about Legend or Adequan to disagree with using it as a day before show booster.
                          Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post

                            So I wonder what he was giving them. If it was the day before I doubt it was a tranq or sedative. Was it something like Legend or Adequan? I don't think depo works that quickly to be effective after one day. Without knowing what it was I am withholding judgement on that one. I don't know enough about Legend or Adequan to disagree with using it as a day before show booster.
                            was thinking the same thing. Unless they were showing at unrated shows, it wouldn't be ace or something similar. Not to mention that ace given the night before would be useless the next day. Possibly could have been banamine or injectable bute, both are legal, within limits, and must be administered 12 hours prior to competion. could have been adequan or legend, both are legal.
                            when you assume, well.......
                            with regard to the OP, the trainer should have gotten you on the phone, if the horse was a problem, and asked you how you want her to proceed.

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