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Trainer drugged my horse... WWYD? Updated

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  • #21
    Was the purpose of the Ace to help him relax during the journey, as opposed to making him easier to load? (Not that it would be excusable to sedate him without your consent).

    If so, is there a past history that would lead the trainer to believe he would be a bad traveler? I mean, does she give every horse Ace for a road trip, or did she have some reason for picking yours out?

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post
      Was the purpose of the Ace to help him relax during the journey, as opposed to making him easier to load? (Not that it would be excusable to sedate him without your consent).

      If so, is there a past history that would lead the trainer to believe he would be a bad traveler? I mean, does she give every horse Ace for a road trip, or did she have some reason for picking yours out?
      These are points that need not even be considered.
      Why someone tranquilized a horse they were told not to is irrelevant.
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


      • #23
        But did you ask the trainer “did you give my horse ace?” Ask that. Don’t rely on another client who “has the resume” to know what she saw.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
          Welcome to the hunter world.
          So true

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

            These are points that need not even be considered.
            Why someone tranquilized a horse they were told not to is irrelevant.
            As I stated, it is not excusable to sedate the horse without consent for either reason.

            However, I wouldn't call the question "irrelevant." If the trainer sedated the horse because she knows of past trailering experiences where the horse became panicked or violent, then that means the owner and the trainer together need to develop a training plan to help the horse become more comfortable with trailering. It's not a solution to simply expect the trainer to "deal with it" on show day.

            Of course, I'm not assuming this is the situation -- that's why I asked the questions to get more detail.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post
              However, I wouldn't call the question "irrelevant." If the trainer sedated the horse because she knows of past trailering experiences where the horse became panicked or violent, then that means the owner and the trainer together need to develop a training plan to help the horse become more comfortable with trailering. It's not a solution to simply expect the trainer to "deal with it" on show day.
              While I take your point, if that had been the case, the trainer and the owner should have had a conversation about this concern when the trainer was asking questions about whether or not the horse needed to be drugged to get on a trailer.
              "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

              Comment


              • #27
                I would not want someone to give my horse an injection without my consent. Unless it was a dire emergency and I would want to be contacted first if at all possible. If the horse is insured and somebody besides a vet injects Ace ( or something else) and something happens to the horse I think the insurance company has a good reason to not pay out. Anytime you give an injection there is a small chance that the horse will have an adverse reaction and Ace can have consequences for geldings and stallions. I can see using it for an emergency but this was not an emergency. If the horse wouldn't load - then it stays home. This should never be used routinely in place of training.

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                • #28
                  The way all of the hunter trainers I have known casually dispense drugs of all kinds, but in particular, injectable drugs, has always boggled my mind.

                  Aside from the ethical issues, there is the SHIT STORM of culpability when the horse goes into anaphylaxis, trainer doesn’t have epinephrine, and the horse runs through a wall and dies.
                  Or they give an IM shot of banamine, and horse gets gas gangrene.
                  Or they medicate a colic case without hydrating them and blow the kidneys.
                  Or they give ace to a stallion or gelding, and they can never fully retract their penis again .

                  just in case any of you think I am being overly dramatic, each and everyone of the scenarios I described has happened to someone I personally know. Actually I know two Horses who died of anaphylaxis: one ran through a wall, one jumped/crashed through the indoor arena and dropped dead in the parking lot in front of its 10 year old owner. Both of these situations were even under veterinary care, and the vets could not get to the horse safely to give them the epinephrine.

                  NO insurance company will pay out on these expensive horses in any of these scenarios.
                  Vets have malpractice insurance in case they make bad calls.

                  I will not give someone else’s horse an injection without their explicit permission, or the permission of a vet who has been kept apprised of the situation. I suppose in a dire emergency that I consider to be life or death, I would. I hope it never comes to that.

                  the hunter culture has evolved to accept all of the injection, dexing, jugging scenarios as normal, and IT’S NOT.
                  you all are being gaslit

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                    These are points that need not even be considered.
                    Why someone tranquilized a horse they were told not to is irrelevant.
                    Another question I would have is was it even legal for the trainer to give the horse Ace, as some states have laws regarding who can administer anything to a horse.
                    "You can't fix stupid"- Ron White

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I'd be pissed buuuuut.... I'd want to verify. Will the other boarder/client stand by you at the risk of incurring the wrath of the trainer, if the trainer denies it? Or not want to get involved at that point? Or is the other person independent from the trainer?

                      Also. A broom? Heck I'd be having issues with that too.

                      ETA regarding the legality, also this I refused to use an "equine dentist" everyone else at the barn was excited was coming, because he was not a vet and he was practicing medicine without a license. I Googled his name and he had an active warrant for his arrest for the same thing.
                      COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                      "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Well, "normal" and "ethically correct" are two different things. I think the norm in the h/j world is a tendency to jump quickly to the use of medications not just to solve problems but as "insurance" to make sure horses behave. I just want to point out that this tendency comes from the clients as much as the trainers. Showing is expensive, and clients who pay to go to a show have very little tolerance for "horses being horses" and having a bad day because of it. Clients want to win, and expect a trainer to produce that for them. They don't have any tolerance for a horse arriving at a show rattled and performing poorly because of that. In the h/j world there is a premium on horses appearing calm and consistent at all times, despite the stresses of travel and competition and the nature of horses to be sensitive to their environment.

                        Ethics are a different matter entirely. Any medication or injection comes with risk. Especially when chosen and administered by people who have zero veterinary training or background in pharmacology. As a horse owner, I think that you need to be weighing risks vs. benefits any time you medicate a horse. I think that in a show horse setting, it is reasonable to request that your horse not be medicated without your permission. Expectations re: communication over medications vary by barn and by type of barn, so I think it is okay to be up front and ask your trainer or the BO how the barn usually functions with regard to medicating horses.

                        My personal approach to making sure my wishes are followed is not by getting upset or angry with people. Attitudes towards overly medicating horses are changing, and owners are the front lines of this change. Conversation and explanation of your expectations is generally the best approach. If after explaining your expectations your trainer is unable or unwilling to be on the same page, then you have the option of choosing another professional.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Renn/aissance View Post

                          While I take your point, if that had been the case, the trainer and the owner should have had a conversation about this concern when the trainer was asking questions about whether or not the horse needed to be drugged to get on a trailer.
                          My thinking is the conversation should have occurred weeks beforehand and should have resulted in a plan to work on trailering with the horse, if a problem was anticipated.

                          I'm still wondering what prompted the trainer to Ace this particular horse (which the OP says occurred before the horse even got near the trailer)... or did she Ace the other horses as well, like this is her routine go-to??

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                            My thinking is the conversation should have occurred weeks beforehand and should have resulted in a plan to work on trailering with the horse, if a problem was anticipated.

                            I'm still wondering what prompted the trainer to Ace this particular horse (which the OP says occurred before the horse even got near the trailer)... or did she Ace the other horses as well, like this is her routine go-to??
                            He is a worrier, which is why she chose to give him the Ace. I guess she assumed he would be stressed on the trailer. But, he had to ship a long way to get to the farm when we first moved and he trailered very well with no issues, which is why I had originally told the trainer it wouldn’t be necessary to drug him.
                            Last edited by masiek; Oct. 26, 2019, 08:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by masiek View Post

                              He is a worrier, which is why she chose to give him the Ace. I guess she assumed he would be stressed on the trailer. But, he had to ship a long way to get to the farm when we first moved and he trailered very well with no issues, which is why I had originally told the trainer it wouldn’t be necessary to drug him.
                              Did you ask the trainer if she gave him ace, and if so what did trainer say?

                              Realize that if trainer lies to you on this relatively low stakes incident that they will lie to you about more important things too.

                              I would be *really* worried about the lying.

                              I myself would move because of the lying. They have shown you who they are. Believe them.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Yes to above. If trainer lies about this (and the omission is a lie), trainer will and likely has already lied about other things.

                                Stupid thing to ace for, by the by. And a "trainer" who has to use a broom to load a horse isn't actually training. Ridiculous. How about reinforcing the forward aid? Oh, right, we don't want to actually go forward with hunters. Silly me.
                                Power to the People

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Thinking I should have provided more context but I was trying not to go too far into detail. No I have not had a conversation with the trainer about this yet. I have no reason to believe trainer will deny it because they seem to be pretty open about their use of pharmaceuticals. I’ve witnessed the trainer decide (while talking about it out loud) to give a client’s horse some Ace because he was kicking in the stall. This was at another (also unrated) show. I didn’t like that, but, at that point I thought, not my horse not my business. This is why I don’t doubt at all that the other client was correct when she told me about how the trainer gave my horse Ace for the trailer ride.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by masiek View Post
                                    Thinking I should have provided more context but I was trying not to go too far into detail. No I have not had a conversation with the trainer about this yet. I have no reason to believe trainer will deny it because they seem to be pretty open about their use of pharmaceuticals. I’ve witnessed the trainer decide (while talking about it out loud) to give a client’s horse some Ace because he was kicking in the stall. This was at another (also unrated) show. I didn’t like that, but, at that point I thought, not my horse not my business. This is why I don’t doubt at all that the other client was correct when she told me about how the trainer gave my horse Ace for the trailer ride.
                                    Why on earth are you at this barn?

                                    Do these folks ever go to rated shows or are they stick at unrated because of no drug testing???

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by masiek View Post
                                      Thinking I should have provided more context but I was trying not to go too far into detail. No I have not had a conversation with the trainer about this yet. I have no reason to believe trainer will deny it because they seem to be pretty open about their use of pharmaceuticals. I’ve witnessed the trainer decide (while talking about it out loud) to give a client’s horse some Ace because he was kicking in the stall. This was at another (also unrated) show. I didn’t like that, but, at that point I thought, not my horse not my business. This is why I don’t doubt at all that the other client was correct when she told me about how the trainer gave my horse Ace for the trailer ride.
                                      Well there ya go: What was not your problem now is your problem. I think you know how your trainer rolls. But you don't know how she would do things if you explicitly told her to stop giving drugs you don't ask for to your horse, and to stop lying to you by omission. I think your saying "He shouldn't need Ace" should have been interpreted as "Don't Ace my horse," but now it sounds like you are willing to be a bit unclear and resort to hoping that your opinion was heard and respected. I just think you need to be more clear, that's all.
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        WWYD is the question.
                                        I think you have two choices.
                                        If you like this trainer, except for the free flowing Ace then have a discussion with the trainer about the fact that you do not want them giving your horse anything with out your actual permission.
                                        Now, this will only work if you think the trainer will be honest about administering meds.

                                        If you do not want to discuss it with them and you do not think they will be honest about giving meds then move to a different barn where your theories on medications agree with theirs.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Do not make the mistake of thinking that the trainer gives horses only Ace without consulting with owners. This is a culture of drugs.
                                          also, BTW, I have never given ace under these circumstances. Drugs are not my FIRST go-to, especially if, as in your horse’s case, he hadn’t even “done” anything yet. It sounds like drugs are a substitute for horsemanship for this trainer.
                                          What about....training?
                                          Last edited by Arlomine; Oct. 27, 2019, 11:54 AM.

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