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Green Pony bound for pony finals

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  • Green Pony bound for pony finals

    This is a bit of an odd question but just thought I would ask. I am 16 and a solid rider with the opportunity to lease a large green pony for the division. She is 12 with a prior suspensory that is healed and managed. She has very little hunter experience but is cute and learning. She does need a lot of work though. She has some bad habits and an inconsistent lead change. Overall just in need of some smoothing out. This will take lots of time effort and money on my part leasing her. We will likely rack up $20k in expenses. If we do end up going to pony finals I feel that I will have done her owners a large favor of increasing her value. Is it unreasonable to ask for a kickback on her sale price? Sorry if this is confusing.

  • #2
    There's arrangements similar to this done all the time among professionals where one pro will take a horse, pay the bills, and get a percentage of the sale price when it sells. It does make sense. BUT you are a junior leasing a pony and that's a whole different ballgame. This is a pony with an old suspensory injury, meaning he is likely going to be leased for quite a few years before he sells. The owners won't be turning around and selling him for 100k when you're done. Your "kickback" is going to be a reduced lease on a pony finals quality pony.

    Many people choose not to lease green animals for this reason. If you bought a green pony then you would have a chance of profiting or at least breaking even. But then, there's always the chance the pony is injured or otherwise unable to be sold. You and your parents need to decide what risks you are comfortable with.


    • #3
      Honestly, green, 12 years old and prior suspensory will be a hard sell in general.


      • #4
        Your kickback should be a discount on the lease fee or it’s a free lease the owner subsidizing some of the $20K in sunk costs. I agree, the prospects of selling a green 12 yo pony with a healed suspensory may be limited even with success at PF. If you are up for the challenge and able to spend the money the experience may be money well spent. Or, could be money spent elsewhere.


        • #5
          I would not go there.
          As a currently pony-less kid, what would it cost you to get to Pony Finals without this person's pony?
          I'd venture far more than $20k.

          Your compensation is getting a cheap if not free lease, a quality pony to work with, and invaluable experience bringing along a greenie. And that's all before you get the opportunity to show Pony Finals, which I think is a bit presumptuous right now.

          You also aren't the one stuck paying board on a 12 y.o. un-proven pony with a healed suspensory at the end of the journey. Believe me, no one will be making money in this scenario.
          EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta


          • #6
            12 year old Green Pony mare with prior suspensory and no rated results prior to now likely won’t sell for enough to cover expenses even if it gets to PF.

            Think before you take this on, you learn more about the Division Ponies, which is what this Pony will be as she enters her second year as a show Pony and loses the Green status.

            Actual height is hugely important and can add or subtract a zero from the sale price. Does this Pony have a measurement card on file? Ever been sticked (correctly measured)? Has she ever been to a show? Are you sure she is legally Green after being around for a decade?

            Second biggest influence on Pony sale price is can the average child ride it? A 16 year old showing it in the Greens does not answer the question can a younger child ride on the Regular Large Division. By 16, most kids are out of pigtails, big hair ribbons and Ponyland so the market is younger kids.

            Finally, are you aware of how much time, training, effort and money need to go into just getting it qualified for PF? Need a tri color at the rated levels. Need enough show mileage to avoid getting to PF too Green to get around that big, forward galloping, spooky course and devaluing the Pony with a poor performance or a DQ.

            Assuming you will master all of these things and sell for enough to recoup expenses and split the profits is....ummmm....a reach.

            Also don’t know what your show age is but you could age out of eligibility for a Green Pony and/or she can bust her Green status before you get her competitive enough to qualify. She only gets one show year of Green so you either start Dec 1 and have about 7 months to get her qualified for 2020 PF with no do overs or you wait until Dec 1 of 2020 for the 2021 PF so you get a full year of training and non rated shows before starting her official Green season. Course she’ll be 13 next year and 14 in 2021 which will effect sale price.
            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


            • #7
              I agree with what everyone else is saying and is all great advice that the OP should carefully consider. If it were me, I would make sure this is a free lease situation and not a paid lease. If your description of the pony is accurate, she needs a lot of work and you hope to put in the work to improve her, you shouldn't be paying a lease fee.

              Regardless of what arrangement you make with the owner, please make sure you and the owner both sign a CONTRACT that spells out everyone's responsibilities and also addresses what happens if things go sideways. For example, what if it is July and you have put $15,000 and she re-injures the suspensory? What if the owner decides to sell the mare three months into the lease? What if you put $20,000 into her and she doesn't qualify for pony finals? What if someone decides to vet her during pony finals and something terrible (non-negotiable) is found on the pre-purchase exam? At the end of the day, if you do decide to lease the pony, you need to be prepared to put $20,000 into the pony and get nothing out of it. If you cannot afford to lose $20,000, don't do it. If you go in with the mindset that you need to get something out of it after spending $20,000, I guarantee you that at least one of you will be upset at the end of the lease.

              I have been breeding, showing, training, selling and judging pony hunters for 20+ years. I am also a certified Equine Appraiser. One thing that really needs to be mentioned here, simply qualifying for pony finals and/or attending pony finals doesn't mean a pony's value automatically increases. If a pony is decent around course and simply attends a rated show with only two other entries, it is pretty easy to qualify for finals. Just because a pony qualifies and attend the finals doesn't mean they are of the same caliber as the stellar ponies that show there consistently. In a nutshell, simply being a participant isn't enough to increase value. The must have's for a talented pony hunter are - great jumping form, good hunter movement, a good step to get down the lines, great hunter conformation, pretty, brave, forgiving nature and well mannered enough to allow a child to navigate them around the course.

              Unless the pony is super fancy, it is likely you are going to be putting more money into the pony than what you will be able to get back out of it due to her age, inexperience/lack of showing and medical history. You also do not have a lot of time to turn a piece of coal into a diamond. That said, I wish you the best of luck!
              Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
              Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness


              • #8
                Great advice given already!

                There's a LOT of "ifs" in this situation.

                A 12 year old without hunter experience and an iffy change may not come around nicely or quickly enough to be competitive in the greens, much less at pony finals. At pony finals, assuming you qualify, first-time experiences tend not to be consistently positive and just going to PF doesn't inherently increase the pony's value. It has to go and have a respectable performance. PF is not an easy environment especially for riders and ponies not experienced at that level, and many attend for the experience and end up having stops or a pretty poor O/F performance. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to increase the pony's value.

                Then you have soundness considerations. If the pony hasn't been ridden consistently as a hunter pony, will it hold up? I think green larges jump 2'9? And you're likely going to have to jump a lot of jumps to get it going nicely enough to get to an A show.

                In short, you have no idea if your lease will add value to the pony or not. You're also getting the opportunity of a shot at attending PF for way, way less than most (if you think $20k is a lot to spend getting there...think again!). You want to share in the potential upside, but what happens if the pony gets hurt again - are you willing to help absorb that loss? Probably not. Despite what you may be putting into the pony, the owners are still the ones who hold all the risk if something goes wrong.

                It's never great to enter into a situation where you feel like you're doing someone a's a recipe for resentment. So I'd definitely have all of this ironed out before signing any lease.

                ETA Consider also that the trade-off that exists in this scenario is what makes it affordable for you, and that's your upside or piece of the pie. You want to attend PF on a more proven pony who you aren't putting all that effort and improvement into? Your lease fee alone may be upwards of $20k, plus board and training and showing. The ability to have the shot at PF relatively affordably (as $20k is still a lot of money!) is your reward for the relative inexpensive shot at attending. You're never going to find inexpensive AND made; you're going to be on a diamond in the rough sort if you want to do this affordably, and while the owner *might* end up with a financial benefit (or no benefit if you go and make a big mistake!), you have the benefit of attending at all.
                Jennifer Baas
                It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)


                • #9
                  Oh, never answered your main question...if you, lease her and increase her value, is it unreasonable to ask for a kickback? Yes, you are just the leaser. They might tip you but that’s totally up to their generosity and what they need to get out of her. You would need to be some kind of limited partner in developing her and put that in writing. Or, rather, your parents would need to get it in writing on your behalf so the contract could be enforceable.

                  Most replies have centered on the extreme unlikelihood even making your expenses back let alone making a profit.

                  Not trying to shoot you down here, this is not the right kind of prospect to develop into a money maker or even getting expenses back. More of a money pit with age, health history, lack of show experience and sketchy changes that are often related to to last injuries in 12 year olds.

                  . If we were talking about a 6 year old Pony sticked at 14.1 showing 2’6’ locally, schooling 3’ with sgood changes. This would be a far different conversation. Even then, as a leaser, you don’t get a piece of sale proceeds.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                  • #10

                    Depending upon sale price, I would be very likely to "tip" the rider. A demand/request for compensation from leaser would be a no go for me. If you approached me looking for this compensation, I would politely decline, and you would lose your ride.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by paintedpony View Post
                      Depending upon sale price, I would be very likely to "tip" the rider. A demand/request for compensation from leaser would be a no go for me. If you approached me looking for this compensation, I would politely decline, and you would lose your ride.
                      I think it is important to stress - and I mean this gently but seriously OP: You are not a professional. And at 16 it is totally okay for you to be unaware of the million ways from Sunday this could go wrong before anyone even starts thinking asking prices, but it also demonstrates your inexperience. If she's had this pony any length of time (especially if she's had it the full 12 years) she has already sunk more $$$ into it than she will ever recover from the market. Professionals know this and advise their clients accordingly; it is absolutely part of what "commission" covers. This is kind of a "You don't know what you don't know" situation, and may land with a strong whiff of audacity.

                      A tip would be lovely & is not uncommon, but I would focus on finding my profit from the process itself.
                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta