Sport Horse Spotlight

BushyGeneology copy

Real Estate Spotlight

Driveway

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Green Pony bound for pony finals

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Green Pony bound for pony finals

    This is a bit of an odd question but just thought I would ask. I am 16 and a solid rider with the opportunity to lease a large green pony for the division. She is 12 with a prior suspensory that is healed and managed. She has very little hunter experience but is cute and learning. She does need a lot of work though. She has some bad habits and an inconsistent lead change. Overall just in need of some smoothing out. This will take lots of time effort and money on my part leasing her. We will likely rack up $20k in expenses. If we do end up going to pony finals I feel that I will have done her owners a large favor of increasing her value. Is it unreasonable to ask for a kickback on her sale price? Sorry if this is confusing.

  • #2
    There's arrangements similar to this done all the time among professionals where one pro will take a horse, pay the bills, and get a percentage of the sale price when it sells. It does make sense. BUT you are a junior leasing a pony and that's a whole different ballgame. This is a pony with an old suspensory injury, meaning he is likely going to be leased for quite a few years before he sells. The owners won't be turning around and selling him for 100k when you're done. Your "kickback" is going to be a reduced lease on a pony finals quality pony.

    Many people choose not to lease green animals for this reason. If you bought a green pony then you would have a chance of profiting or at least breaking even. But then, there's always the chance the pony is injured or otherwise unable to be sold. You and your parents need to decide what risks you are comfortable with.

    Comment


    • #3
      Honestly, green, 12 years old and prior suspensory will be a hard sell in general.

      Comment


      • #4
        Your kickback should be a discount on the lease fee or it’s a free lease the owner subsidizing some of the $20K in sunk costs. I agree, the prospects of selling a green 12 yo pony with a healed suspensory may be limited even with success at PF. If you are up for the challenge and able to spend the money the experience may be money well spent. Or, could be money spent elsewhere.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would not go there.
          As a currently pony-less kid, what would it cost you to get to Pony Finals without this person's pony?
          I'd venture far more than $20k.

          Your compensation is getting a cheap if not free lease, a quality pony to work with, and invaluable experience bringing along a greenie. And that's all before you get the opportunity to show Pony Finals, which I think is a bit presumptuous right now.

          You also aren't the one stuck paying board on a 12 y.o. un-proven pony with a healed suspensory at the end of the journey. Believe me, no one will be making money in this scenario.
          EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

          Comment


          • #6
            12 year old Green Pony mare with prior suspensory and no rated results prior to now likely won’t sell for enough to cover expenses even if it gets to PF.

            Think before you take this on, you learn more about the Division Ponies, which is what this Pony will be as she enters her second year as a show Pony and loses the Green status.

            Actual height is hugely important and can add or subtract a zero from the sale price. Does this Pony have a measurement card on file? Ever been sticked (correctly measured)? Has she ever been to a show? Are you sure she is legally Green after being around for a decade?

            Second biggest influence on Pony sale price is can the average child ride it? A 16 year old showing it in the Greens does not answer the question can a younger child ride on the Regular Large Division. By 16, most kids are out of pigtails, big hair ribbons and Ponyland so the market is younger kids.

            Finally, are you aware of how much time, training, effort and money need to go into just getting it qualified for PF? Need a tri color at the rated levels. Need enough show mileage to avoid getting to PF too Green to get around that big, forward galloping, spooky course and devaluing the Pony with a poor performance or a DQ.

            Assuming you will master all of these things and sell for enough to recoup expenses and split the profits is....ummmm....a reach.

            Also don’t know what your show age is but you could age out of eligibility for a Green Pony and/or she can bust her Green status before you get her competitive enough to qualify. She only gets one show year of Green so you either start Dec 1 and have about 7 months to get her qualified for 2020 PF with no do overs or you wait until Dec 1 of 2020 for the 2021 PF so you get a full year of training and non rated shows before starting her official Green season. Course she’ll be 13 next year and 14 in 2021 which will effect sale price.
            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with what everyone else is saying and is all great advice that the OP should carefully consider. If it were me, I would make sure this is a free lease situation and not a paid lease. If your description of the pony is accurate, she needs a lot of work and you hope to put in the work to improve her, you shouldn't be paying a lease fee.

              Regardless of what arrangement you make with the owner, please make sure you and the owner both sign a CONTRACT that spells out everyone's responsibilities and also addresses what happens if things go sideways. For example, what if it is July and you have put $15,000 and she re-injures the suspensory? What if the owner decides to sell the mare three months into the lease? What if you put $20,000 into her and she doesn't qualify for pony finals? What if someone decides to vet her during pony finals and something terrible (non-negotiable) is found on the pre-purchase exam? At the end of the day, if you do decide to lease the pony, you need to be prepared to put $20,000 into the pony and get nothing out of it. If you cannot afford to lose $20,000, don't do it. If you go in with the mindset that you need to get something out of it after spending $20,000, I guarantee you that at least one of you will be upset at the end of the lease.

              I have been breeding, showing, training, selling and judging pony hunters for 20+ years. I am also a certified Equine Appraiser. One thing that really needs to be mentioned here, simply qualifying for pony finals and/or attending pony finals doesn't mean a pony's value automatically increases. If a pony is decent around course and simply attends a rated show with only two other entries, it is pretty easy to qualify for finals. Just because a pony qualifies and attend the finals doesn't mean they are of the same caliber as the stellar ponies that show there consistently. In a nutshell, simply being a participant isn't enough to increase value. The must have's for a talented pony hunter are - great jumping form, good hunter movement, a good step to get down the lines, great hunter conformation, pretty, brave, forgiving nature and well mannered enough to allow a child to navigate them around the course.

              Unless the pony is super fancy, it is likely you are going to be putting more money into the pony than what you will be able to get back out of it due to her age, inexperience/lack of showing and medical history. You also do not have a lot of time to turn a piece of coal into a diamond. That said, I wish you the best of luck!
              www.DaventryEquestrian.com
              Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
              Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
              www.EquineAppraisers.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Great advice given already!

                There's a LOT of "ifs" in this situation.

                A 12 year old without hunter experience and an iffy change may not come around nicely or quickly enough to be competitive in the greens, much less at pony finals. At pony finals, assuming you qualify, first-time experiences tend not to be consistently positive and just going to PF doesn't inherently increase the pony's value. It has to go and have a respectable performance. PF is not an easy environment especially for riders and ponies not experienced at that level, and many attend for the experience and end up having stops or a pretty poor O/F performance. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to increase the pony's value.

                Then you have soundness considerations. If the pony hasn't been ridden consistently as a hunter pony, will it hold up? I think green larges jump 2'9? And you're likely going to have to jump a lot of jumps to get it going nicely enough to get to an A show.

                In short, you have no idea if your lease will add value to the pony or not. You're also getting the opportunity of a shot at attending PF for way, way less than most (if you think $20k is a lot to spend getting there...think again!). You want to share in the potential upside, but what happens if the pony gets hurt again - are you willing to help absorb that loss? Probably not. Despite what you may be putting into the pony, the owners are still the ones who hold all the risk if something goes wrong.

                It's never great to enter into a situation where you feel like you're doing someone a favor....it's a recipe for resentment. So I'd definitely have all of this ironed out before signing any lease.

                ETA Consider also that the trade-off that exists in this scenario is what makes it affordable for you, and that's your upside or piece of the pie. You want to attend PF on a more proven pony who you aren't putting all that effort and improvement into? Your lease fee alone may be upwards of $20k, plus board and training and showing. The ability to have the shot at PF relatively affordably (as $20k is still a lot of money!) is your reward for the relative inexpensive shot at attending. You're never going to find inexpensive AND made; you're going to be on a diamond in the rough sort if you want to do this affordably, and while the owner *might* end up with a financial benefit (or no benefit if you go and make a big mistake!), you have the benefit of attending at all.
                Jennifer Baas
                It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, never answered your main question...if you, lease her and increase her value, is it unreasonable to ask for a kickback? Yes, you are just the leaser. They might tip you but that’s totally up to their generosity and what they need to get out of her. You would need to be some kind of limited partner in developing her and put that in writing. Or, rather, your parents would need to get it in writing on your behalf so the contract could be enforceable.

                  Most replies have centered on the extreme unlikelihood even making your expenses back let alone making a profit.

                  Not trying to shoot you down here, this is not the right kind of prospect to develop into a money maker or even getting expenses back. More of a money pit with age, health history, lack of show experience and sketchy changes that are often related to to last injuries in 12 year olds.

                  . If we were talking about a 6 year old Pony sticked at 14.1 showing 2’6’ locally, schooling 3’ with sgood changes. This would be a far different conversation. Even then, as a leaser, you don’t get a piece of sale proceeds.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                  Comment


                  • #10


                    Depending upon sale price, I would be very likely to "tip" the rider. A demand/request for compensation from leaser would be a no go for me. If you approached me looking for this compensation, I would politely decline, and you would lose your ride.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by paintedpony View Post
                      Depending upon sale price, I would be very likely to "tip" the rider. A demand/request for compensation from leaser would be a no go for me. If you approached me looking for this compensation, I would politely decline, and you would lose your ride.
                      I think it is important to stress - and I mean this gently but seriously OP: You are not a professional. And at 16 it is totally okay for you to be unaware of the million ways from Sunday this could go wrong before anyone even starts thinking asking prices, but it also demonstrates your inexperience. If she's had this pony any length of time (especially if she's had it the full 12 years) she has already sunk more $$$ into it than she will ever recover from the market. Professionals know this and advise their clients accordingly; it is absolutely part of what "commission" covers. This is kind of a "You don't know what you don't know" situation, and may land with a strong whiff of audacity.

                      A tip would be lovely & is not uncommon, but I would focus on finding my profit from the process itself.
                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X