Sport Horse Spotlight

Sandro Hit Standa Eylers

Real Estate Spotlight

UMS_01

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Depo Deaths - Chronicle Article

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Depo Deaths - Chronicle Article

    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...e-sudden-death

    Does anyone have first hand experience? Or even second hand experience? Any thoughts?

    I honestly had no idea anaphylaxis was even a side effect of giving depo. I have a small group of four. My mare is the only mare. She's maintained on depo primarily to lessen her completely whorish behavior out in the field. She lived separate for some time, but I really like the fact that she can exist with friends, and she's much quieter and now turns out reliably without supervision.

    Now I'm questioning whether or not to give her the dose due tomorrow.

    ETA: This is not a discussion about alternatives. This is not a discussion about the use of depo for altering mental status for riding purposes. This is a discussion about side effects. This use is truly for a hormonal (or so I thought...) purposes. My horse is a solid citizen under saddle regardless of her whorish behavior in the field. Depo is used on her to allow her to live a fairly normal life with ample turnout, while not risking the limps of my passive geldings.
    Last edited by scrbear11; Oct. 11, 2019, 10:58 AM.

  • #2
    I don't have experience with the deaths, but my vet advised me the drug is seriously dangerous and should be removed from the market. I trust him, and he stays well educated in the medical community. So there's that.

    There is also the research that shows it can cause heart failure in dogs and chimps. I wouldn't take the risk, personally.
    Boss Mare Eventing Blog

    Comment


    • #3
      Sudden death (anaphylaxic shock) is sadly, a side-effect of many IM or IV administrations -- not just depo.

      In my experience, it is very rare. I'm very fortunate to have never had it happen, though I have administered the shot many times as a WS/BM.

      That being said I would of course, not use it unless I absolutely had to. I'm personally against depo for my own horses, for other reasons, as I found it abused in show-barns by riders/people who had "cranky" horses when the horse was just trying to tell them something wasn't quite right..

      If you are looking for alternatives, have you tried feed-throughs instead, like raspberry leaves?
      AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

      Comment


      • #4
        I guess I just never ran in the circles that used this when I used to show hunters and dressage. My theory has always been, if your horse needs something to be ridden (whether depo etc) it's either telling you a) There is pain somewhere, b) the horse needs more physical work and/or turnout time, or c) the horse needs further training or its a mismatch between rider and horse. I personally would never use depo. I have tried Mare Magic on a few mares that had very strong cycles and turned into grouches, ultrasounds showed no cysts or physical issues, but I never noticed a difference with it. I have since heard raspberry leaves are cheaper than the Mare Magic and basically the same thing as well.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post
          I guess I just never ran in the circles that used this when I used to show hunters and dressage. My theory has always been, if your horse needs something to be ridden (whether depo etc) it's either telling you a) There is pain somewhere, b) the horse needs more physical work and/or turnout time, or c) the horse needs further training or its a mismatch between rider and horse. I personally would never use depo. I have tried Mare Magic on a few mares that had very strong cycles and turned into grouches, ultrasounds showed no cysts or physical issues, but I never noticed a difference with it. I have since heard raspberry leaves are cheaper than the Mare Magic and basically the same thing as well.
          In this case, it's not to be ridden. So that's not the point of this discussion. She's a solid citizen under saddle whether or not she's a raging whore out in the field. It allows her to live a normal life with ample turnout without causing excessive drama in the field or hurting one of the boys. Herbal "remedies" don't lessen her assaults on the geldings.

          And in all fairness, how is the use of an altering herbal supplement any different from the use of a prescribed drug?

          Comment


          • #6
            I only tried the herbal supplement on two mares, when we had done all kinds of diagnostics for them and found nothing out of the ordinary physically. My comments weren't directed at you, but in general, when people use any sort of product to dull down their horse for RIDING purposes.

            I am sure in cases like yours, and other issues,there is a good benefit. I just don't understand people who use things to try to quiet their horse so they are able to handle it under saddle!

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm sorry I was responding more to the article.

              To answer your question, it sounds like it is still a pretty remote possibility that your horse would have such a reaction. Once in the article it is mentioned it happened after the 2nd (ever?) injection. How long has she been receiving it? If the benefits outweigh the slim chance of a reaction like that (and it sounds like in your case, they do!), I would probably go ahead and give it to her.

              I'm sorry to have derailed the thread a bit! Good luck OP!

              Comment


              • #8
                My gelding was showing increasingly aggressive stud like behaviors the past couple of years. Not just while ridden but he did also start charging select horses in the arena. I tried to always ride by myself and work through training issues, but he was super distracted when other horses even walked by and he was really weird about other horses’ manure.

                We tested him for retained testicular tissue (none), tried for a long time to fix it with training including cowboy style boot camp. Chasing pain issues (which he has also had but which don’t seem to be correlated with the stud behavior). I tried about every herbal “mare” thing. He was getting so anxious and checked out we also tried Prozac. Depo has made him a much happier horse.

                I heard about this from my university sports vet the other day. Farm vet prescribes the drug, but the whole team is aware. University vet hadn’t researched it but I guess someone had been contacting them to collect data. They don’t really use it. Farm vet said that any IM injection could cause anaphylactic reactions and in his opinion Depo is not higher risk. I do hate injecting any suspension compound and I wish it came in another form. Some of them are thicker than others. I guess you have to weigh the risk and benefit. Are there a lot of horses on it that probably have no real need to be? Yes, I’m pretty sure of that. The more instances of injection the more likely someone will have an adverse reaction. Does the risk outweigh the benefit for some? Probably.

                I don’t give it to be able to horse show. I give it because I think it improves his quality of life. I can make the choice to just dealing with the aggression and being careful who I am around, but even in the stall he has just seemed like a more normal, happy go lucky kind of horse which I’d never seen before. If given a reasonably effective alternative, sure, I would love to stop injecting my horse. It’s not a decision I made lightly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post
                  I'm sorry I was responding more to the article.

                  To answer your question, it sounds like it is still a pretty remote possibility that your horse would have such a reaction. Once in the article it is mentioned it happened after the 2nd (ever?) injection. How long has she been receiving it? If the benefits outweigh the slim chance of a reaction like that (and it sounds like in your case, they do!), I would probably go ahead and give it to her.

                  I'm sorry to have derailed the thread a bit! Good luck OP!
                  The problem with the data is we don’t know which horses died on shot #2 and which ones on shot #100 or whatever. If there was a lot on #2 then I think maybe the risk would be different than the latter. However think about anaphylaxis in other situations. People can be exposed to bee stings and shellfish or whatever multiple times and then they can become acutely allergic. Some are acutely allergic after a single primed exposure.

                  Were all the horses taken for necropsy? Do we know that no one hit a vessel?

                  How do these estimated statistics of severe adverse reaction compare to other injectables?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

                    The problem with the data is we don’t know which horses died on shot #2 and which ones on shot #100 or whatever. If there was a lot on #2 then I think maybe the risk would be different than the latter. However think about anaphylaxis in other situations. People can be exposed to bee stings and shellfish or whatever multiple times and then they can become acutely allergic. Some are acutely allergic after a single primed exposure.

                    Were all the horses taken for necropsy? Do we know that no one hit a vessel?

                    How do these estimated statistics of severe adverse reaction compare to other injectables?
                    You make a good point. It definitely sounds like something that needs to be studied so that they can try and see if there is a trend. I had an Aunt who never had allergies to shellfish, who one day went to a restaurant and had such a severe reaction to it that she had to be rushed to the hospital. She can now no longer consume shellfish. So I do think that is a good possibility as well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      As said before, with any injection or medication given there is a risk. You have to decide if the reward is greater than the risk. It doesn’t sound (yet) like this is a particularly common side effect. I also found it very interesting that both of the incidences talked about in the article happened in boarding barn situations with multiple horses getting injected.... makes you wonder if maybe something else is going on here to cause the deaths. Contamination maybe?
                      You can always switch to regu-mate if you are very concerned though.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We use regu-mate. never had one have an allergic reaction to depo, but they can get very sore necks. back in the day, some vets used it for back pain, as the theory was that it would help with muscle spasms, kind of like birth control pills help with a lot of female health issues, other than contraception. But ikd if it truly helped
                        I have, however, seen one die from anaphalaxis from a properly done IM penicillin injection, and 2 from an allergy to SMZ, given orally.
                        Those both freaked me out, because I am allergic to many antibiotics

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The article talks about the drug from compound pharmacies. Is this a problem with the name brand drug as well? I’m just thinking about a thread dungrulla started about trusting your compound pharmacist. I’ve never used depo or regumate as I have never had a horse that needed better pasture experiences through chemistry. Although I have owned and own a mare that people tell me I should use these things, I have found more wet saddle pads do the trick.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Having had a very hormonal mare, I understand your dilemma! My mare was ok oustide, but in her stall would throw her hip up against the wall over and over again and cause sores. She'd also kick the walls and generally was at risk of hurting herself! This wasn't training issues or pain issues. It was a mare hormone issue. My mare was on depo during the summer and once her fall heat cycle was over, I took her off until spring. I never had any issues. Depo is primarily if not always compounded, so that could be where the issue is. I would make sure your depo comes from a very reputable compounder with high standards. My girl is older now and I have not needed it for the last couple of years, but she was on it through the summers for years with no issues.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                              The article talks about the drug from compound pharmacies. Is this a problem with the name brand drug as well? I’m just thinking about a thread dungrulla started about trusting your compound pharmacist. I’ve never used depo or regumate as I have never had a horse that needed better pasture experiences through chemistry. Although I have owned and own a mare that people tell me I should use these things, I have found more wet saddle pads do the trick.
                              I don't think it can be given as "name brand" because it needs to be in a different concentration. At least that's what I gathered. It's tribal knowledge that it is the same thing as depo, but is mostly called "medroxy" in the circles I frequent. All horse versions are from a compounding pharmacy

                              I, personally, have seen this drug abused more than most others. Any behavior issue got smothered in medroxy instead of addressed with training. I was even suggested to give it to my very hot TB mare by a trainer who rode her once. I politely declined.

                              I think the governing bodies need to make a decision regarding this drug.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post
                                The article talks about the drug from compound pharmacies. Is this a problem with the name brand drug as well? I’m just thinking about a thread dungrulla started about trusting your compound pharmacist. I’ve never used depo or regumate as I have never had a horse that needed better pasture experiences through chemistry. Although I have owned and own a mare that people tell me I should use these things, I have found more wet saddle pads do the trick.
                                There’s no specific FDA approval for use in horses, so there isn’t brand name Depo for use in horses ... it’s all compounded.

                                The overall risk of anaphylaxis is probably pretty low, but I just don’t see using it for show-ring calming being worth the risk ... but then I’ve never been a fan of the “training in a bottle” approach.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Hello all. Posting as an alter here to clarify some mis information. I am the owner of the horse in the article. I didn’t know the assistant trainer (we’ll call them AT) was contacted for an interview until after the fact and I was never contacted by the chronicle. I was told by AT after the interview was given that they had been approached and I corrected them at that time on the mis-information given. I did not contact the chronicle about the mis-information because it was a very hard time for us and I honestly didn’t care. The horse did not die from the Depo.

                                  Two weeks prior the horse got vaccines from a vet with decades of experience. During that time, a bacteria was introduced to the muscle tissue in the neck. Over the next two weeks, his body muscles (including heart and lungs) filled with edema and a deadly toxin. We had no idea. No fever, no lethargy. It ended up that he had a VERY rare bacteria that houses itself within the muscle and stays “dormant” for a lack of a better word. When it progresses to the point that the edema and toxins can’t be held anymore and the muscle is “triggered” the toxin is released into the system causing seizure, stroke, heart attacks and death. I want to stress that this horse had IMMACULATE care before his death. No one in this scenario did anything negligent or wrong. This was a fluke thing that is so rare, his necropsy results have been shared with many teaching hospitals and field vets.

                                  His is official diagnosis by New Bolton was:
                                  1) Intramuscular hemorrhage base of left neck and forelimb with emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
                                  2) Peracute laryngeal and pulmonary edema with pulmonary hemorrhage and emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
                                  3) Advanced multi-organ autolysis with disseminated sporulated bacilli

                                  New Bolton told us that based on the advancement that 1) it had been “brewing” approximately 2 weeks and 2) the horse was a ticking time bomb and would not have lasted another 48 hours. All he needed was some sort of trigger...stressful event, hard work out, or puncture to a muscle. I am just thankful my daughter didn’t ride him hard enough that night to trigger him as she was riding.

                                  I have no comment on depo, but wanted to clarify the situation.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Also to add, the incident was reported to the compounding pharmacy and vaccine manufacturers and there was no defect found to the medications themselves.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Lilly123B I am so sorry for your loss.

                                      Maybe I am misremembering but I thought the USEF banned depo.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Denali6298 I believe there was talk of banning Depo a couple years ago, but the outcry from the hunter trainers was such that it went nowhere.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X