Sport Horse Spotlight

Zucchero Gold - Wandres, Frederic - 838-BC18_REU2723-foto_reumann

Real Estate Spotlight

Walter Moore rear view

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Depo Deaths - Chronicle Article

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    I don't think that we can be 100% certain with the information we have that Lilly123B's horse is for sure the horse described in the anecdote in the article. The veterinarians quoted in the article describe multiple cases, and I'm sure most of the cases would sound extremely similar if you described them anonymously: show horse getting routine injection by barn personnel followed by collapse and sudden death. It's unlikely that the Chronicle only reached out to only ONE single horse owner that had been affected by this. Also, clostridial myositis has a different timeframe and presentation compared to an anaphylactic reaction. It don't think it is fair to assume that a reporter researching this topic necessarily confused the two.

    Lilly123B, you have my deepest condolences for the death of your horse, no matter what the cause.

    As far as the controversy, I think it's clear that in horses Depo does not have any indication for use for the suppression of estrus--the data flat out shows that it is not reliably effective for that. However, it DOES have a market effect on behavior and no one is saying that it doesn't. It's just that unfortunately, that change in behavior is not related to suppressing heat cycles. The Chronicle article briefly mentions research that shows that the mechanism of action might be via GABA receptors in the brain, similar to benzos like Xanax and Valium.

    Given this information I think it is clear that Depo falls in the category of a behavior altering drug. Most behavior altering drugs are not legal for show use, even if your stated purpose is to change day-to-day behavior vs. show ring behavior.

    Bottom line: if a horse's bad behavior is due to estrus, use a medication that is known to suppress estrus (Altrenogest). If your horse needs it's overall behavior altered, there are safer options out there. IMO people are choosing Depo over those other choices because they want to be able to legally show. But based on the data, I think it is probably fair and correct that this loophole be closed.

    scrbear11 I think the safety concerns regarding Depo are likely valid. For every case that is reported, there are probably multiple cases that haven't been reported other than to the primary veterinarian who hasn't taken it further, or that have been reported to the company compounding the medication and dismissed as "possibly something else caused the death, how could we possibly know for sure."

    If a human drug were causing anaphylaxis and sudden death at a rate of 1/900 patients, it would be pulled from the market ASAP. But since we are talking about horses, no official third party is required to keep track or take regulatory action. Since the drug is popular and very useful in many horses, compounding pharmacies are going to keep making it and selling it, and it is in their best interest to attempt to defuse concerns about the drug's safety profile. So this leaves us in an awkward situation of not knowing what the risks really are.

    Obviously it's a personal choice as to how much risk you are willing to expose your mare to in order to be able to turn her out with geldings. Many people as a matter of normal routine do not consider turning mares and geldings out together because in many instances strife does occur as a natural consequence. I don't think any of us can tell you what you should do--if mixed group turnout is your only option that creates a tough question, turnout is pretty important. You say you aren't interested in discussion of alternatives, but honestly I think that's really something to explore at some point. If you could create the same effect with a safer medication, wouldn't you consider it?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

      Except that depo/medroxy is not for getting a horse quiet, any more than birth control is for keeping women and girls calm. it is to help regulate cycling,mood and behavior. there are plenty of jumpers, and hot ones i'm sure, that get it

      We have a very sassy little fox hunt mare that is a raging bitch without the help from hormones; she'd love to hurt you without them, and also has the charming habit of stopping, spreading her legs and peeing every chance she gets without her regumate. the point is to make them safer for everyone involved, including themselves and other horses. Over lunging is about getting a horse quiet. Ditto Perfect prep, acepromazine, reserpine, etc.

      I don't think the standards are unrealistic. Why lower the bar? And judges are more lenient now wrt horses playing a little, or as they call it "being expressive", especially with greener horses.. I know they are, because i've won plenty of big classes on horses that are a little..."expressive". Now a novice adult horse, maybe not so much, but that's a different animal
      First, folks are using medroxy on geldings in the hunter ring.

      To be clear, this is not giving synthetic progesterone so as to keep a mare from ovulating.

      Whether or not we ought to be "making room" for horses like very, very hormonal mares who cannot perform or will positively hurt people in any selective breeding program is a legit question. I am also sure it's an extremely unpopular one. If we all thought that magic combination of lovely mind and wonderfully-moving and jumping horse was expensive and rare now, think how many more horses would find themselves with no market if we also disallowed these horses who were unrideable (or "not as good") for biological reasons. Of course, if folks selected for the "non-hormonal mare" long enough, we'd have these nice horses in spades!

      And I suppose you and I will have to disagree about whether the expectations we put on modern show hunters are unrealistic. It sounds like you would concede to some extent that the horses that are out of the green divisions and piloted by ammies and kids are supposed to be very quiet. Those are not your words, of course.

      And look, y'all, I have "that" mare. She is not mean or bad, generally, or way worse when she is season, but she is intense and does not edit her feelings, so scares people around the barn. I always expect to get that "call from the principal" about what she has done wrong now. She has taken a long time to get broke. And she has gotten trained and now does her job reliably under saddle and on the ground. Finding the right feeding and management program for her in a barn helps, too. This is a horse who has a hard time with average horsemen in a boarding barn; better horsemen do better by her and like her better. She is the kind of horse that is destined to have a harder life most of the time than my good ol' boy hunter gelding. That's sad. But she has a job that she can do via training and I have not asked her to do a job that would require chemical help, let alone violating USEF Drugs and Medications rules about the motive of "enhancing performance" to get there. That's not fair to the horse or to the sportsman who wants to be part of an honest competition where the horse is relaxed and confident and doing their job because they understand it.

      And as the owner of "that" mare, my heart goes out to the OP who was trying to manage a studdish gelding who needed a way to get turned out. I have been in the boarding barn that was the best I could do at the time and not good enough for my particular horse. It sucks. I get it.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

        Except that depo/medroxy is not for getting a horse quiet, any more than birth control is for keeping women and girls calm. it is to help regulate cycling,mood and behavior. there are plenty of jumpers, and hot ones i'm sure, that get it

        We have a very sassy little fox hunt mare that is a raging bitch without the help from hormones; she'd love to hurt you without them, and also has the charming habit of stopping, spreading her legs and peeing every chance she gets without her regumate. the point is to make them safer for everyone involved, including themselves and other horses. Over lunging is about getting a horse quiet. Ditto Perfect prep, acepromazine, reserpine, etc.
        So I just want to clarify here--if symptoms of estrus are the issue, the appropriate treatment is altrenogest, which does indeed reliably control estrus in mares.

        Depo OTOH does a very poor job of reliably controlling estrus. Instead, in horses Depo acts as a sedative in a manner speculated to be (via preliminary research) through the same neurotransmitter pathway as Valium. So for sure it "works" but it's not by regulating cycling.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #64
          Lilly - I'm heartbroken for you. I am so sorry for your loss.

          And now I'm even more divided on whether or not to continue depo.

          Comment


          • #65
            No one asked a molecular biologist, and much to the chagrin of hunter trainers/owner/judges everywhere, by the letter of the law about altering mood- depo should not be allowed IMO.

            Scientifically, depo is one of the GnRH agonists (affects sex hormones), it works on the hypothalmus and anterior pituitary gland. Why does it matter? Because the hypothalmus (the link between the endocrine and nervous system) also produces corticotropin-releasing hormone in both genders (CRH-also made by the placenta) that acts on the pituitary to release (or not) hormones in response to stress (among others).

            Hormones are complex, however, I am very surprised that it has not been further looked in to in evaluation of whether is is mood altering or not (science says that though depo has not been "proven" -the mechanism of action certainly looks that way).
            Last edited by Pennywell Bay; Oct. 14, 2019, 11:02 AM.
            Come to the dark side, we have cookies

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by StormyDay View Post
              I also found it very interesting that both of the incidences talked about in the article happened in boarding barn situations with multiple horses getting injected.... makes you wonder if maybe something else is going on here to cause the deaths. Contamination maybe?
              Makes *me* wonder if maybe it's because these establishments are replacing training/suitability of horse to job and/or rider with pharmaceuticals.
              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                I don't think it can be given as "name brand" because it needs to be in a different concentration. At least that's what I gathered. It's tribal knowledge that it is the same thing as depo, but is mostly called "medroxy" in the circles I frequent. All horse versions are from a compounding pharmacy
                Not a huge difference--proprietary licensed formulaation is 150mg/ml; the compounded is 100 and 200 mg/ml, depending on where you order it.


                I, personally, have seen this drug abused more than most others. Any behavior issue got smothered in medroxy instead of addressed with training. I was even suggested to give it to my very hot TB mare by a trainer who rode her once. I politely declined.

                I think the governing bodies need to make a decision regarding this drug.
                Amen.

                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by kirbydog View Post

                  Except that depo/medroxy is not for getting a horse quiet, any more than birth control is for keeping women and girls calm. it is to help regulate cycling,mood and behavior. there are plenty of jumpers, and hot ones i'm sure, that get it
                  It is most assuredly not given to geldings in order to regulate cycling. And giving it to regulate "mood and behavior" is sort of the definition of a prohibited substance.


                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I know a lot of big show barns give their hunters depo to quiet them, and that's another story about behavior modification and whether it even works... because I don't think it does a lot of the time, having tried it as a last resort on my old hunter.

                    I have seen it work in terms of quality of life/safety on my jumper, who was gelding somewhere between 5 and 6. He exhibited some stud-like behavior (very clingy with horses, calling to them constantly, etc.), and he also was a trainwreck on the ground... to the point where I couldn't crosstie him in the aisle, for fear of the smallest noise causing him to freak out and run backwards. He once did that, broke his halter, and took off towards the road. Standing in front of a fan in the summer when its 95 degrees? Forget about it.

                    All of those behaviors are gone now that he is on depo. He still spooks at things while riding and is not one I'd ever hack out, he still gets pretty lit when jumping (which I want, I like a jumper with blood), and he still has an attitude about life. However, the overly reactive behavior, as well as the herd-bound/clingy bs, is gone. And that behavior was truly a safety issue for him and I. He would most likely not have a job without depo. So call it what you will, this is purely anecdotal, but I see a clear difference in the horse that I previously have not seen in other horses.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by jhg140 View Post
                      I know a lot of big show barns give their hunters depo to quiet them, and that's another story about behavior modification and whether it even works... because I don't think it does a lot of the time, having tried it as a last resort on my old hunter.

                      I have seen it work in terms of quality of life/safety on my jumper, who was gelding somewhere between 5 and 6. He exhibited some stud-like behavior (very clingy with horses, calling to them constantly, etc.), and he also was a trainwreck on the ground... to the point where I couldn't crosstie him in the aisle, for fear of the smallest noise causing him to freak out and run backwards. He once did that, broke his halter, and took off towards the road. Standing in front of a fan in the summer when its 95 degrees? Forget about it.

                      All of those behaviors are gone now that he is on depo. He still spooks at things while riding and is not one I'd ever hack out, he still gets pretty lit when jumping (which I want, I like a jumper with blood), and he still has an attitude about life. However, the overly reactive behavior, as well as the herd-bound/clingy bs, is gone. And that behavior was truly a safety issue for him and I. He would most likely not have a job without depo. So call it what you will, this is purely anecdotal, but I see a clear difference in the horse that I previously have not seen in other horses.
                      T.R.A.I.N.I.N.G.

                      Or, buy a horse that suits your needs without necessitating a chemical lifestyle.

                      Edit: My mare is hot. She will drag you if you don't enforce things. She came to me the way you describe your gelding. Now - she gets clingy? She goes and gets tied to a stout fence post for a couple hours while I do chores. She pulls back that's her problem. She tried calling just a few times before she learned that calling = hard, crummy work, so she stopped.

                      Train him to tie. Train him to hack out. Train him to be alone. It's training. Especially the tying crap, its training. You don't think a shot of medroxy taught him to come forward off of poll pressure, do you?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by jhg140 View Post
                        I know a lot of big show barns give their hunters depo to quiet them, and that's another story about behavior modification and whether it even works... because I don't think it does a lot of the time, having tried it as a last resort on my old hunter.

                        I have seen it work in terms of quality of life/safety on my jumper, who was gelding somewhere between 5 and 6. He exhibited some stud-like behavior (very clingy with horses, calling to them constantly, etc.), and he also was a trainwreck on the ground... to the point where I couldn't crosstie him in the aisle, for fear of the smallest noise causing him to freak out and run backwards. He once did that, broke his halter, and took off towards the road. Standing in front of a fan in the summer when its 95 degrees? Forget about it.

                        All of those behaviors are gone now that he is on depo. He still spooks at things while riding and is not one I'd ever hack out, he still gets pretty lit when jumping (which I want, I like a jumper with blood), and he still has an attitude about life. However, the overly reactive behavior, as well as the herd-bound/clingy bs, is gone. And that behavior was truly a safety issue for him and I. He would most likely not have a job without depo. So call it what you will, this is purely anecdotal, but I see a clear difference in the horse that I previously have not seen in other horses.
                        I'll say that I don't associate being "clingy" with being "stallion-like." Any horse can be herd-bound. "Stallion behavior" is usually considered to include extreme aggressiveness, mounting mares (or trying to), and being dangerously territorial. Being herd-bound, on the other hand, is just pretty basic equine behavior.

                        Pulling back on the crossties is also not that unusual. I wouldn't say that it's indicative of some out-of-the-ordinary spookiness. This is a behavior that can either be trained out of existence (in some horses), or can be adapted for, as in not cross-tying or providing the horse some distraction on the cross ties. Personally, to my mind, to give a horse an injected, mood-altering drug because he pulls back on the crossties seems extreme.
                        "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          We had a gelding who was super studdish. Tried to mount, just a real pain in the ass. Tried everything. He got 100% better in hand, but would still pull shenanigans loose.

                          We side line hobbled him in his turnout group, and that put the piece of humble pie back in his noggin. But some people are totally opposed to hobbling (but yet somehow, not opposed to injecting unnecessary chemicals into a gelding...)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                            T.R.A.I.N.I.N.G.

                            Or, buy a horse that suits your needs without necessitating a chemical lifestyle.

                            Edit: My mare is hot. She will drag you if you don't enforce things. She came to me the way you describe your gelding. Now - she gets clingy? She goes and gets tied to a stout fence post for a couple hours while I do chores. She pulls back that's her problem. She tried calling just a few times before she learned that calling = hard, crummy work, so she stopped.

                            Train him to tie. Train him to hack out. Train him to be alone. It's training. Especially the tying crap, its training. You don't think a shot of medroxy taught him to come forward off of poll pressure, do you?

                            This is why people don't share their experiences, because folks automatically assume that training isn't done. I was pregnant/post-partum and on the ground with this horse for a year, working with him. I used some of the techniques you described above. For multiple years. I continue to work with him on the ground, ie to work on his whole body meltdown fear of clippers.

                            If I were a horse, I wouldn't "suit the needs" of my job without a "chemical lifestyle", because I can't function without anti-anxiety meds. Guess I shouldn't have a job.

                            I'm really glad that you have the ability and time to train your horse to suit your needs. Enjoy her.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by jhg140 View Post


                              This is why people don't share their experiences, because folks automatically assume that training isn't done. I was pregnant/post-partum and on the ground with this horse for a year, working with him. I used some of the techniques you described above. For multiple years. I continue to work with him on the ground, ie to work on his whole body meltdown fear of clippers.

                              If I were a horse, I wouldn't "suit the needs" of my job without a "chemical lifestyle", because I can't function without anti-anxiety meds. Guess I shouldn't have a job.

                              I'm really glad that you have the time, schedule and funds to train your horse to suit your needs. Enjoy her.
                              I'm sorry, but I'm going to close the shop on your little self pity party here.

                              It's not fair to your horse to have a live a life medicated because you don't have the "time schedule and funds" to train him. Sell him to someone who does, and get something more suited to what you're doing now.

                              If you used the techniques described and they didn't work, you were using them wrong. If you don't believe me, take him off the meds and send him to a soft-but-cowboy type trainer, and witness results.

                              My mare is hard. She is constantly pushing the boundaries of what's allowed, and I'm constantly having to put her back in there. If she were in the hands of someone who didn't have the rules I have, I'm sure she would be medicated by now. Instead, we function fine together, it just takes a little work.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                                I'm sorry, but I'm going to close the shop on your little self pity party here.

                                It's not fair to your horse to have a live a life medicated because you don't have the "time schedule and funds" to train him. Sell him to someone who does, and get something more suited to what you're doing now.
                                I think it is fair. And he is for sale (because I don't have the time to show anymore and don't need a 1.20M+ horse sitting at home), so please make an offer.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by jhg140 View Post

                                  I think it is fair. And he is for sale (because I don't have the time to show anymore and don't need a 1.20M+ horse sitting at home), so please make an offer.
                                  On or off the depo?

                                  Kidding kidding. Hope you find a horse that doesn't require so much hand-holding to be successful. They're out there!

                                  Edit: Actually, this brings up a point. Do people disclose the horse is on medroxy in a sales ad, or to a potential buyer? That would be a huge red flag for me.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    jhg140 - I hope you find a good home for your guy. I don't mean any disrespect and I am not proposing the question to you specifically, so I do no mean it in an adversarial way to anybody.

                                    For the purposes of showing- of which was the outcry with the proposed rule:

                                    As a long time hunter rider I am genuinely curious because some respected people have come out in favor of depo for geldings and mares alike. For geldings specifically (but mares as well)- if it "makes them comfortable in their own skin", more focused, etc- is that not "mood altering" and therefore not legal?

                                    Or is it because the science isn't flushed out enough that makes it legal?
                                    Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Pennywell Bay View Post

                                      For the purposes of showing- of which was the outcry with the proposed rule:

                                      As a long time hunter rider I am genuinely curious because some respected people have come out in favor of depo for geldings and mares alike. For geldings specifically (but mares as well)- if it "makes them comfortable in their own skin", more focused, etc- is that not "mood altering" and therefore not legal?

                                      Or is it because the science isn't flushed out enough that makes it legal?
                                      Offering my experience again, take it with a grain of salt.

                                      Re: making horses "more comfortable in their own skin"... technically that could be considered behavior altering and against the spirit of the rule. But when I think of how absolutely crippled I am without my anti-anxiety medication, despite being an incredibly successful professional... if its something you've never experienced yourself, consider yourself lucky. And if depo use allows otherwise fine horses to continue to have a job in a similar vein, and to be successful, whether that job be at AA shows or trotting x-rails with an older adult, why is that a bad thing? It's not making horses quieter or easier to ride (gosh that would be nice if it did).

                                      Also, if depo works for a horse, it works. If it doesn't, you're flushing $50-80/month down the drain because it doesn't change a thing.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        It's tough when you feel you've done what you can and people don't like your answer.

                                        You can show in the jumpers without ever needing to use a set of clippers, and if he needs to be body clipped, maybe a once a year medication of dormorsedan would be as effective and less invasive. And if he doesn't want to stand in front of a fan, why exactly are you making him? I say that not to be mean, but to encourage you to reset your expectations ... if you have to medicate the horse to do something nice for him, he probably doesn't think that it's so nice. That's the right choice for vaccinations but maybe not for a cooling fan... though YMMV.

                                        When so many people are using a medication off-label in this way, because of real or perceived benefits to performance, and harm is coming to horses, it seems explicitly banning the drug is appropriate. Even if your case is a good one, a reasoned one, when too many people are copying that for poor reasons, we have to reset.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by jhg140 View Post

                                          Offering my experience again, take it with a grain of salt.

                                          Re: making horses "more comfortable in their own skin"... technically that could be considered behavior altering and against the spirit of the rule. But when I think of how absolutely crippled I am without my anti-anxiety medication, despite being an incredibly successful professional... if its something you've never experienced yourself, consider yourself lucky. And if depo use allows otherwise fine horses to continue to have a job in a similar vein, and to be successful, whether that job be at AA shows or trotting x-rails with an older adult, why is that a bad thing? It's not making horses quieter or easier to ride (gosh that would be nice if it did).

                                          Also, if depo works for a horse, it works. If it doesn't, you're flushing $50-80/month down the drain because it doesn't change a thing.
                                          It's a bad thing when the drugs have side effects from their administration that can cause harm to the horse. And it's a worse thing if the benefits of the drug - or perceived benefits - cause more people to administer it creating more adverse reactions and a sense that you can't be competitive without it.

                                          If the substance only benefitted the horse I'd have no problem with it.

                                          Dex is an example of a problematic drug - one with real benefits in certain instances. But give it too often, and you have a risk of founder, and probably the reason that it's being given, to induce calmness, is largely small or placebo. I don't care about the cost of the medication to the owners; I do care about the cost of founder to the horses.
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X