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Depo Deaths - Chronicle Article

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  • #21
    Anyone here that doesnt take ANY meds like xanax, zoloft, etc (or depo, which I have been on for 20 years) can comment on all the reasons why we shouldnt give it. For some horses, especially late gelded horses, it improves the quality of life immeasurably. Anaphylaxis is risk with any injection.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Lilly123B View Post
      Hello all. Posting as an alter here to clarify some mis information. I am the owner of the horse in the article. I didn’t know the assistant trainer (we’ll call them AT) was contacted for an interview until after the fact and I was never contacted by the chronicle. I was told by AT after the interview was given that they had been approached and I corrected them at that time on the mis-information given. I did not contact the chronicle about the mis-information because it was a very hard time for us and I honestly didn’t care. The horse did not die from the Depo.

      Two weeks prior the horse got vaccines from a vet with decades of experience. During that time, a bacteria was introduced to the muscle tissue in the neck. Over the next two weeks, his body muscles (including heart and lungs) filled with edema and a deadly toxin. We had no idea. No fever, no lethargy. It ended up that he had a VERY rare bacteria that houses itself within the muscle and stays “dormant” for a lack of a better word. When it progresses to the point that the edema and toxins can’t be held anymore and the muscle is “triggered” the toxin is released into the system causing seizure, stroke, heart attacks and death. I want to stress that this horse had IMMACULATE care before his death. No one in this scenario did anything negligent or wrong. This was a fluke thing that is so rare, his necropsy results have been shared with many teaching hospitals and field vets.

      His is official diagnosis by New Bolton was:
      1) Intramuscular hemorrhage base of left neck and forelimb with emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
      2) Peracute laryngeal and pulmonary edema with pulmonary hemorrhage and emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
      3) Advanced multi-organ autolysis with disseminated sporulated bacilli

      New Bolton told us that based on the advancement that 1) it had been “brewing” approximately 2 weeks and 2) the horse was a ticking time bomb and would not have lasted another 48 hours. All he needed was some sort of trigger...stressful event, hard work out, or puncture to a muscle. I am just thankful my daughter didn’t ride him hard enough that night to trigger him as she was riding.

      I have no comment on depo, but wanted to clarify the situation.
      Wait a sec. Hold up!

      Do you mean to say that the first horse in the article, the one handed by Assistant Trainer "Sarah Greene" went into anaphylactic shock for some reason other than the medroxy alone?

      If so, I think there's some piss-poor sloppy reporting in this article. They needed to have chosen a horse who honest-to-God died from an injection of this drug alone in order to have their opening anecdote.

      And several points are confusing-bordering-on-sensationalistic.

      1. If all injectable stuff are capable of creating anaphylactic shock, albeit with infrequency......
      2. And no one knows quite yet whether this drug does it with any more or less frequency than any others......
      3. There are some "reasons to hate" medroxy that have more to do with drugging hunters for performance than this new issue with rare-but-average instances of bad side effects....

      Then why is this A Thing?

      Don't get me wrong: I think there are plenty of reasons not to drug horses for performance. If you have that outlier horse that cannot live a normal life without it, then do what you have to do, I suppose.

      But, by that same token of wanting honesty and rigor around horses and drugs, I think the article should help people think about this stuff in accurate terms.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Lilly123B View Post
        Hello all. Posting as an alter here to clarify some mis information. I am the owner of the horse in the article. I didn’t know the assistant trainer (we’ll call them AT) was contacted for an interview until after the fact and I was never contacted by the chronicle. I was told by AT after the interview was given that they had been approached and I corrected them at that time on the mis-information given. I did not contact the chronicle about the mis-information because it was a very hard time for us and I honestly didn’t care. The horse did not die from the Depo.

        Two weeks prior the horse got vaccines from a vet with decades of experience. During that time, a bacteria was introduced to the muscle tissue in the neck. Over the next two weeks, his body muscles (including heart and lungs) filled with edema and a deadly toxin. We had no idea. No fever, no lethargy. It ended up that he had a VERY rare bacteria that houses itself within the muscle and stays “dormant” for a lack of a better word. When it progresses to the point that the edema and toxins can’t be held anymore and the muscle is “triggered” the toxin is released into the system causing seizure, stroke, heart attacks and death. I want to stress that this horse had IMMACULATE care before his death. No one in this scenario did anything negligent or wrong. This was a fluke thing that is so rare, his necropsy results have been shared with many teaching hospitals and field vets.

        His is official diagnosis by New Bolton was:
        1) Intramuscular hemorrhage base of left neck and forelimb with emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
        2) Peracute laryngeal and pulmonary edema with pulmonary hemorrhage and emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
        3) Advanced multi-organ autolysis with disseminated sporulated bacilli

        New Bolton told us that based on the advancement that 1) it had been “brewing” approximately 2 weeks and 2) the horse was a ticking time bomb and would not have lasted another 48 hours. All he needed was some sort of trigger...stressful event, hard work out, or puncture to a muscle. I am just thankful my daughter didn’t ride him hard enough that night to trigger him as she was riding.

        I have no comment on depo, but wanted to clarify the situation.
        Clostridial myositis? It’s a risk with any intra-muscular injection, more so with certain injections.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by mroades View Post
          Anyone here that doesnt take ANY meds like xanax, zoloft, etc (or depo, which I have been on for 20 years) can comment on all the reasons why we shouldnt give it. For some horses, especially late gelded horses, it improves the quality of life immeasurably. Anaphylaxis is risk with any injection.
          You know what, I have a ton of respect for you based on your posting history. However, I'm going to chime in.

          I take 0 anxiety drugs, and recently discontinued Depo-as I felt it was definitely causing some physical issues, as well as well as some mental ones. I can totally understand how the Depo affects horses. I feel it kinda did the same. I was MEH about just about everything. 4 months later, my cycle still hasn't stabilized, but I'm definitely starting to come out of the fog. I'm sure my customers aren't super thrilled, especially coming into no stirrup November, dressage December, and gymnastic January. I'm mean like that.

          I do have a question.
          However did we manage, ride, and show these horses before chemistry made their lives better?

          "The Friesian syndrome... a mix between Black Beauty disease and DQ Butterfly farting ailment." Alibi_18

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by mroades View Post
            Anyone here that doesnt take ANY meds like xanax, zoloft, etc (or depo, which I have been on for 20 years) can comment on all the reasons why we shouldnt give it. For some horses, especially late gelded horses, it improves the quality of life immeasurably. Anaphylaxis is risk with any injection.
            I don't take those drugs, to perhaps I'm unqualified to comment.

            But I do think carefully about issues and I think there are a couple of differences between the human- and horse models that you don't acknowledge.

            1. Informed consent. No horse has the option of either being informed nor consenting before he is medicated. Either this difference matters, or you don't think that's an important component of prescribing these drugs to people.

            2. Unique to horse world, I think the normalizing of these performance-enhancing drugs help to raise the bar for horses (especially the hunters) to unrealistic heights. That much must be clear to you since all of us who have been around since at least the end of yestercentury have seen the ideal for hunters becoming quieter and quieter (with the same magnificent jump in there somewhere) and those docile horses being asked to show more and more each year at the big destination horse shows where they live in quite unnatural conditions. There is a lot of harm we can do to horses, mind and body, if we make them quiet enough to do this job well.

            And that brings me back to the first point: No horse gets knowledge or a say in how his life will go if he agrees to enjoy a little "mother's little helper" that allows him to put his head down, do his job well and STFU about it.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Lilly123B View Post
              Hello all. Posting as an alter here to clarify some mis information. I am the owner of the horse in the article. I didn’t know the assistant trainer (we’ll call them AT) was contacted for an interview until after the fact and I was never contacted by the chronicle. I was told by AT after the interview was given that they had been approached and I corrected them at that time on the mis-information given. I did not contact the chronicle about the mis-information because it was a very hard time for us and I honestly didn’t care. The horse did not die from the Depo.

              Two weeks prior the horse got vaccines from a vet with decades of experience. During that time, a bacteria was introduced to the muscle tissue in the neck. Over the next two weeks, his body muscles (including heart and lungs) filled with edema and a deadly toxin. We had no idea. No fever, no lethargy. It ended up that he had a VERY rare bacteria that houses itself within the muscle and stays “dormant” for a lack of a better word. When it progresses to the point that the edema and toxins can’t be held anymore and the muscle is “triggered” the toxin is released into the system causing seizure, stroke, heart attacks and death. I want to stress that this horse had IMMACULATE care before his death. No one in this scenario did anything negligent or wrong. This was a fluke thing that is so rare, his necropsy results have been shared with many teaching hospitals and field vets.

              His is official diagnosis by New Bolton was:
              1) Intramuscular hemorrhage base of left neck and forelimb with emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
              2) Peracute laryngeal and pulmonary edema with pulmonary hemorrhage and emphysema and disseminated large bacilli compatible with Clostidium spp.
              3) Advanced multi-organ autolysis with disseminated sporulated bacilli

              New Bolton told us that based on the advancement that 1) it had been “brewing” approximately 2 weeks and 2) the horse was a ticking time bomb and would not have lasted another 48 hours. All he needed was some sort of trigger...stressful event, hard work out, or puncture to a muscle. I am just thankful my daughter didn’t ride him hard enough that night to trigger him as she was riding.

              I have no comment on depo, but wanted to clarify the situation.
              What terrible reporting. So the entire article is now suspect because the writer couldn't bother to even get the basic facts right on the story they lead their article off with.

              The issue here is not so much the Depo (at least to me) but the risks of injecting a compounded medication. And this has always been a risk and is not limited to just Depo. Frankly I don't use it anyway as I've never felt it worked well for horses. I use Regumate if I have one that needs hormonal help.

              Comment


              • #27
                As far as I can tell, it makes sense.
                A lot of people have made their kids quiet little over achieving robots. Why not their horses too?
                Parenting and horsemanship are quite similar.
                "The Friesian syndrome... a mix between Black Beauty disease and DQ Butterfly farting ailment." Alibi_18

                Comment


                • #28
                  Back to the original question.

                  I see your problem.
                  I think the instance of anaphylaxis is pretty low. The risk/reward ratio needs to be considered.

                  That said, given some instances locally- I'm nervous doing my fall boosters... and I've been doing my personal horses (non showing for record purposes) vaccines for 2.5 decades.

                  I think the risk is about the same and we all get a little nervous doing the vaccines too.
                  "The Friesian syndrome... a mix between Black Beauty disease and DQ Butterfly farting ailment." Alibi_18

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post
                    Denali6298 I believe there was talk of banning Depo a couple years ago, but the outcry from the hunter trainers was such that it went nowhere.
                    Interesting - Canadian rules usually follow the US, but for 2019 Equestrian Canada ruled that Depo is not allowed:


                    Medroxyprogesterone (Depo-Provera®) – Class 5 Violation

                    Starting in 2019, the presence of medroxyprogesterone in an official Equine Medication Control sample will constitute a Class 5 Medication Violation.

                    Recognizing the prolonged elimination period of medroxyprogesterone, a subsequent infraction will not be issued within 30 days of a prior infraction. Any subsequent positive tests in the same calendar year will be sanctioned as another Class 5 Violation, but not as a repeated second or third offence.
                    I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Vindicated View Post

                      You know what, I have a ton of respect for you based on your posting history. However, I'm going to chime in.

                      I take 0 anxiety drugs, and recently discontinued Depo-as I felt it was definitely causing some physical issues, as well as well as some mental ones. I can totally understand how the Depo affects horses. I feel it kinda did the same. I was MEH about just about everything. 4 months later, my cycle still hasn't stabilized, but I'm definitely starting to come out of the fog. I'm sure my customers aren't super thrilled, especially coming into no stirrup November, dressage December, and gymnastic January. I'm mean like that.

                      I do have a question.
                      However did we manage, ride, and show these horses before chemistry made their lives better?
                      Don't kid yourself that drugging horses hasn't been around FOREVER
                      eta, it doesn't make it right, it just is. it's very annoying to hear how did we do it then, or back in the day we never.....total bs. they did

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        yeah, back in the day they just gave them some ace (or a lot of ace, tb's and all) Reserpine was quite popular until they developed a test for it.
                        That said, depo has never made a horse robotic or quiet in my experience, just happier in their own skin. Horses cant give informed consent for anything we give them, vaccinations, life saving banamine, sedation or anesthesia, so to me thats a red herring argument.
                        "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                        carolprudm

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Is anyone bothered by the fact the "AT" talked about a clients business without consent? To a reporter, which is far worse that someone else in the barn?

                          Lilly I am sorry for your sad loss. Thank you for sharing the rest of the story here
                          _\\]
                          -- * > hoopoe
                          Procrastinate NOW
                          Introverted Since 1957

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by mroades View Post
                            yeah, back in the day they just gave them some ace (or a lot of ace, tb's and all) Reserpine was quite popular until they developed a test for it.
                            That said, depo has never made a horse robotic or quiet in my experience, just happier in their own skin. Horses cant give informed consent for anything we give them, vaccinations, life saving banamine, sedation or anesthesia, so to me thats a red herring argument.
                            It is not a red herring argument. Let me differentiate for you:

                            All of those other things we give a horse in a way that (for the most part) are in his best interest. Making a horse quieter so that he can win at a contest we made up is not.

                            And please don't miss my other point about the current rules and standards of that arbitrary contest that happens in the hunter ring. Horses are asked for a performance that very few can deliver. IMO, the job for horses has gotten harder since the TB era (not that all TBs had an easy time being as quiet as desired, even with those open, galloping courses). And, the two worse parts, from the horse's point of view is that we don't stay home to slowly teach him is job so that he can be quiet and happy out of understanding of his job. We don't ask his ammy or kid rider to develop the saddle-time based skill that can help this horse out with a tactful, skillful ride. We don't give this horse time off or turn-out, but show a lot, keep him in a stall a lot and inject his joints.

                            I don't think that being a show hunter is a bad job, as far as all possible jobs and lives for horses go. But you cannot tell me that the modern show hunter has a career cut our for him that insures him feeling as confident and relaxed as he looks nor gives him soundness and longevity.

                            And so, insofar as performance-enhancing drugs are used to make the "pretty good" horses competitive enough to compete with the "very good" horses, and those who wrote enormous checks for the "very good" horses are looking for some edge or insurance, I see these drugs as making things worse for horses in a way that "life-saving Banamine" and vaccinations, and sedation or anesthesia for life-enhancing medical stuff do not.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              we can agree to disagree on that I suppose. An appropriate amount of a hormone that makes a horse happier, in my opinion, is much less harmful than lunging it until its legs give out then injecting , shockwaving, blocking, or whatever to mitigate the leg damage.
                              everyone says , well then change the judges and judging standards......let me tell you how many jobs one gets if one has a reputation for not pinning the "dead" ones
                              "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                              carolprudm

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Horse was gelded late. Very studdish. That’s why we were using the depo. Trust me, it did nothing to sedate him. He was very opinionated. Made it so he wasn’t so aggressive in turnout with others. We tried turning him out and he jumped out twice. Hurting himself badly the one time.

                                Compounded medication was checked and fine. As were the vaccines.

                                yes, I was not informed of the article or asked for consent before information was given. Nor was facility owner/head trainer.

                                thank you for the condolences. My daughter and I watched him seize to death for 10 minutes feeling utterly hopeless.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by hoopoe View Post
                                  Is anyone bothered by the fact the "AT" talked about a clients business without consent? To a reporter, which is far worse that someone else in the barn?

                                  Lilly I am sorry for your sad loss. Thank you for sharing the rest of the story here

                                  Yes, I find that appalling.

                                  www.laurienberenson.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    sorry for your loss Lilly
                                    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                                    carolprudm

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      to the OP -why not simply go to Regumate. Yes, you should wear gloves handling it unless you are well past the age.
                                      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by staceymc View Post

                                        What terrible reporting. So the entire article is now suspect because the writer couldn't bother to even get the basic facts right on the story they lead their article off with.

                                        The issue here is not so much the Depo (at least to me) but the risks of injecting a compounded medication. And this has always been a risk and is not limited to just Depo. Frankly I don't use it anyway as I've never felt it worked well for horses. I use Regumate if I have one that needs hormonal help.
                                        So sorry Lilly
                                        This article is terribly misleading if what has been posted on this thread by the horse’s owner is true
                                        ~Veronica
                                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by mroades View Post
                                          we can agree to disagree on that I suppose. An appropriate amount of a hormone that makes a horse happier, in my opinion, is much less harmful than lunging it until its legs give out then injecting , shockwaving, blocking, or whatever to mitigate the leg damage.
                                          everyone says , well then change the judges and judging standards......let me tell you how many jobs one gets if one has a reputation for not pinning the "dead" ones
                                          OK, but now you have changed the argument from "horses don't consent to anything, good or bad" to "OK, this is bad, but it's not the worst of the bad out there. Lunging is worse."

                                          All that ignores the rest of what I had to say about how we have raised the bar to an unrealistic standard for most horses. If we lowered that, we wouldn't need to quiet horses one way or another. The only way you get to make the argument that chemical quieting beats the body-trashing is if we treat those impossible standards as impossible to change rather than an entirely made up standard in a hobby sport.

                                          It does not have to be so, the problem of the judges seeking employment not withstanding. And if you think that argument stands, be prepared to co-sign what the Western Pleasure folks and judges do in pursuit of their ideal.
                                          The armchair saddler
                                          Politically Pro-Cat

                                          Comment

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