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Signs that a horse dislikes/hates jumping?

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    #81
    Originally posted by EmilyM View Post

    I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this was said. i think it's clear he does not like jumping which seems to be your main question. if you have to use the crop to get over any obstacle, it's clearly not something he likes. why he doesn't like it (pain or poor riding) cannot be diagnosed on the internet. if you are willing to do dressage, go for it. getting proper fundamentals on the flat is never bad. good luck!
    Oh EmilyM you must read the whole post. Things have evolved in a very interesting way.

    OP, if you are in friendly contact with previous owner you might ask how much money she got for the horse and then compare that to what you paid. Probably Jim would legitimately get a commission but ask about that too if you can. Don't threaten to send horse back to her at this point or she will stop cooperating.

    Comment


      #82
      Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
      I agree that the rehab blurbs on FB make no sense, speaking as someone who understands hoof balance and horse biomechanics on a basic level. The sales barn are idiots.​​​
      They read as very carrot-sticks-R-us.

      Regardless, OP - you might want to screenshot and save every post made before they realize their error and remove the public posts. Nonsensical aside, they do indicate that your horse had a pretty severe problem and required "rehab" at their facility and mention his bad attitude under saddle. All of which can help your case legally.
      Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

      Comment


        #83
        It is time to consult an attorney. One of my students purchased a Haflinger mare which we discovered was misrepresented.

        We had lots of evidence of misrepresentation, and the seller was sent a notice regarding California’s lemon law from an attorney. Legal action was threatened unless she took the horse back and returned the purchase price by X date.

        She huffed and puffed and threatened to blow the house down, but in the end she took the horse back. You were sold a horse Which was falsely represented. You do need to get your evidence together first before you start asking questions. You need to get screenshots of anything mentioned about any problems on Facebook. You need to get screenshots of anything mentioned about any problems on Facebook. When you contact his old owner, you must do it in text or email so you have things in writing.

        Comment


          #84
          Originally posted by starr331

          Here’s my plan for now: have a vet check him out without telling my trainer. Really, this is the worst month to pay double board... I won’t be able to afford it, board in Miami is so costly. Hopefully, if the vet says he’s okay for flat, I will be able to sell him as a trail or low level dressage horse. I know a horse in Miami will be worth more than one in Milton, so I might not lose too much money. If vet says he’s not/barely rideable, it’ll be worth considering legal action.

          I just realized I never signed a board contract - she never gave me a final copy, only a draft which I obviously didn’t sign. I imagine this means I don’t have to abide by her barn rules.
          edit: Jim’s last update on Pistol is around the time the ad was put up, but he doesn’t say that Pistol has finished rehab or anything.
          Do you have a bill of sale for the horse? Have you looked into getting his breed registration papers transfered to you? The previous owners won't cooperate on that once things get hairy and without them he is just another crocked grade horse.

          Not having a contract means you don't have a period you need to give notice. It doesn't mean you don't need to follow her barn rules. Contracts are typically about money damage deposit one month's notice. They may stipulate feeding plans as part of cost.

          They typically don't cover barn rules like no smoking in the hay loft, no turnout in the barn arena, etc. Those apply to anyone at the barn, and if you are paying board you have signed onto those basic rules.

          If this horse bolts then he isn't suitable as a trail horse.

          You do realize that a proper vet consult with rads is going to run you up close to a $1000?

          Btw did you do a PPE with an independent vet when you bought horse? What vet said he was cleared to jump 3 feet? Your own PPE vet or is this just bs from your trainer and "Jim"?

          Get those screen shots now to show your vet and also get them before your trainer gets wind of your plans and warns Jim to scrub the internet.

          Comment


            #85
            I have now lost my taste for both guac & wine

            starr331 please take Scribbler 's (& others) advice. Divorce yourself from any further dealing with the so-called trainer or the Sale barn conman.

            IIWM, I would move the horse ASAP.
            Can you find either pasture board or even a rescue you could move him to?

            I am very sorry to read how badly you were taken advantage of by people you trusted.
            Don't let this spoil any future dealing with horsepeople, but you really need to educate yourself.
            Find a reputable training program for yourself.
            Since you are in a very active show area (Miami) contact a pro at a barn with a presence at H/J shows, since you want to eventually ride that discipline.
            Work on improving your riding & knowledge of horse care before buying a horse.

            Good Luck
            & Please keep us posted.
            *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
            Steppin' Out 1988-2004
            Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
            Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

            Comment


              #86
              Originally posted by starr331

              I have all the screenshots now. The vet situation is complicated. My trainer told me that one of the reasons she trusted Jim was because he let us choose whatever vet we wanted. However, she didn’t really let me choose because she called the vet Jim recommended and made an appointment for both horses without really confirming with me. I don’t know anything about horse anatomy or medicine or anything like that, so I left a lot of that up to her. They called me a few times during the exam just to ask if I wanted extra xrays, but in the end it was my trainer who said he was good to go. I don’t think I heard that from the vet. I got a vet report in the mail a couple of weeks later.

              I can actually find that report now, I remember a few suspicious things about the whole vet process.
              Call the vet and ask for another copy of the report. Ask us questions here if the details are above your skillset.

              Also keep in mind that you are completely identifiable to anyone involved in this process from the details. As soon as Jim or your trainer finds out things will explode. I predict about a week maximum before they find this thread.

              Get out now. Pasture is fine. You can't ride him anyways. Things will explode around you once your trainer finds this thread. Go now and block her on FB. Tell her the vet recommended some pasture rest and go go go.

              Everything will be over between you and trainer when they find this link. Go now. Take your gear home "to clean" tonight, and find a pasture to hide in the day after the vet visit. Then go.

              Comment


                #87
                OP, I do not wish to sound unkind when you are in such a tough spot. Your posts are so filled with red flags that they are like a wall of fire. You had me with the comment about how dressage is dying in Florida!

                Be very careful in your future correspondence with Jim. He is a maniacal Parelli-ite and like the Parelli machine, is most likely well-advised in legal matters. He gave a farrier/trimmer "clinic" out here in northern California a few years ago at a local, very monied, nest of carrot stickers. He genuinely believes that his bizarre trimming theories can cure any behavioral issue. The bro is wack but I reckon he is an expert in disclaimers.

                What radiographs did the vet shoot? Please tell me they have been released to you (and not your "trainer").

                Comment


                  #88
                  Originally posted by starr331
                  The more I find out about this, the more embarrassed I feel that I let all this happen. Vet report is so confusing to read. The report noted that wave mouth was present, and my trainer said it was because he hadn’t gotten his teeth floated yet. So I got his teeth floated while he was with Jim, who knows if he even did it. Vet report also noted “mild pain reponse noted with upper limb flexion of both hindlimbs, mild pain response noted with flexion of the left stifle, mild pain response noted with lower limb flexion of the left forelimb, 1/5 right front lameness noted when lunged to the right.” So really the only time the vet called me was to report that they were a little concerned (I can’t really remember if they said what they were concerned about) and they asked me if I wanted extra xrays. Pistol’s toes were long overdue for trimming at this time, so basically any abnormalities in lunging were blamed on that. I had xrays done just in case, and never really got the results back from the vet. Again, all I got was my trainer telling me he was cleared.

                  This has me all kinds of messed up.
                  Call the vet and ask for the x-rays. Show them to your current vet.

                  If you weren't present for the PPE the vet would report findings to the trainer and Jim.

                  I would not buy a horse showing pain all around and especially not for jumping. He's basically sore all around and so wouldn't show a typical head bob limp. Sounds like he has stifle problems.

                  Why were his toes long at a rehab sales barn?

                  Your trainer was presented with clear vet evidence at the PPE that horse was sore and discounts this?

                  Totally incompetent or totally corrupt. I wonder if she has a long standing deal with Jim sourcing project and client horses. That would be good to know.

                  Comment


                    #89
                    OP, you don't *really* need an attorney for this kind of stuff if you're willing to do the leg work. This is a civil matter. When it comes time, demand letter with timeframe of return and repayment, followed by a civil case being opened.

                    I have a different opinion than others involved. I would NOT remove the horse from the trainer. I'd remove everything else I owned, but NOT the horse, *especially* if you're wanting either the trainer or J to give you your money back. Remove the horse, they will claim he was injured off property.
                    Last edited by endlessclimb; Oct. 7, 2019, 02:24 PM.

                    Comment


                      #90
                      Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                      OP, you don't *really* need an attorney for this kind of stuff if you're willing to do the leg work. This is a civil matter. When it comes time, demand letter with timeframe of return and repayment, followed by a civil case being opened.

                      I have a different opinion than others involved. I would NOT remove the horse from the trainer. I'd remove everything else I owned, but NOT the horse, *especially* if you're wanting either the trainer or Jim to give you your money back. Remove the horse, they will claim he was injured off property.
                      Oh oh that is a very good point. Yes. But get all your gear gone. And resign yourself to the fact that moving forward on this will sever relationship with the trainer.

                      Comment


                        #91
                        Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post


                        The problem is that homes for unrideable horses are few and far between. If you can give him back, do it. This is NOT your fault and you don't want to waste years on a broken horse you were scammed into buying. It is a hard lesson to learn but most of us older posters have been there at some point. I regret the years and $$$$ I threw down the drain chasing after solutions that were never going to be there for a horse.
                        Isn’t that the truth! OP, I haven’t read all the pages yet, but just want to say that I am sorry this happened to you and your horse. He is very cute! Many, many of us have been in a similar position, and it is hard to figure out what to do with such a horse. Best of luck to you.

                        Comment


                          #92
                          Originally posted by starr331
                          The more I find out about this, the more embarrassed I feel that I let all this happen.
                          Well, if anyone wants to look like an idiot, just hang around horses for a while. Folks are quick to point out the red flags because they've learned the hard way, through experience. I was a pretty successful junior and yet cringe at some of the things I did, under the advice of my trainer. Unlike you, I did not even realize that I should have been embarrassed.

                          Good luck. For now, enjoy grooming your new guy, take him for walks, and take a deep breath.

                          Comment


                            #93
                            Originally posted by Brown Derby View Post

                            Well, if anyone wants to look like an idiot, just hang around horses for a while. Folks are quick to point out the red flags because they've learned the hard way, through experience. I was a pretty successful junior and yet cringe at some of the things I did, under the advice of my trainer. Unlike you, I did not even realize that I should have been embarrassed.

                            Good luck. For now, enjoy grooming your new guy, take him for walks, and take a deep breath.
                            OP this is the most important take away. We’ve all been there one way or another. Maybe it’s not a wash. Enjoy your horse as he is until you find out what exactly is going on.

                            Comment


                              #94
                              Originally posted by starr331
                              So I think I can finally upload pictures. At least, I hope it works. A little late for it anyway, but the little guy is enjoying pasture life for now. ❤️
                              Good for him! OP good luck and there are so many good people on this board that can answer most questions. If you haven’t signed a contract you don’t need to give thirty days notice. I personally wouldn’t in your situation. I would find a new barn (feel free to ask for input here) and plan to move at the end of the month to the new place telling your trainer on the same day.

                              Comment


                                #95
                                Get the vet check now and the PPE data from the sales vet, and I think then even if you move him you can point to pre-existing problems not disclosed when you bought him.

                                Comment


                                  #96
                                  Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                                  Get the vet check now and the PPE data from the sales vet, and I think then even if you move him you can point to pre-existing problems not disclosed when you bought him.
                                  I agree. Plus you have all the FB posts too, which do discuss the horses discomfort.

                                  Is there a way you can schedule the vet visit when the trainer isn't at the barn? Do you know her schedule, like is there a certain day when she's elsewhere? Or maybe she's away at at a horse show or something? because it would be ideal to have this done when she isn't around at all.

                                  And it may be obvious, but don't discuss this (the issues at hand, this thread, the impending vet visit) with anyone (other than your parents). Because this could really go sideways if the trainer, Jim, the previous owner put it all together.

                                  Also, I'd remove the horses registered name from this thread. Use initials for his name or call just call him Star. I'm going back right now to check to see if I used it and remove it.

                                  Hang in there starr331. This may just have a happy ending.
                                  ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                                  Comment


                                    #97
                                    Originally posted by 4LeafCloverFarm View Post

                                    I agree. Plus you have all the FB posts too, which do discuss the horses discomfort.

                                    Is there a way you can schedule the vet visit when the trainer isn't at the barn? Do you know her schedule, like is there a certain day when she's elsewhere? Or maybe she's away at at a horse show or something? because it would be ideal to have this done when she isn't around at all.

                                    And it may be obvious, but don't discuss this (the issues at hand, this thread, the impending vet visit) with anyone (other than your parents). Because this could really go sideways if the trainer, Jim, the previous owner put it all together.

                                    Also, I'd remove the horses registered name from this thread. Use initials for his name or call just call him Star. I'm going back right now to check to see if I used it and remove it.

                                    Hang in there starr331. This may just have a happy ending.
                                    Agreed. Name of the horse, name of the trainer, everyone should go back and edit anything identifiable. OP, I'm so, so sorry you are having to go through with this. Definitely get the xrays from the PPE. Maybe, just maybe, it will be something manageable and this will all work out, he will feel better after proper management and maybe even able to jump again. Who knows.

                                    What insanity.

                                    Comment


                                      #98
                                      Okay, I removed Jim's full name so that's not searchable anymore and the horses' name, which is rather unique and stands out. I encourage everyone else to do the same.
                                      ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                                      Comment


                                        #99
                                        Originally posted by starr331
                                        . . .
                                        It's okay for me to tell the vet beforehand about the situation with my trainer, right? So they don't accidentally contact her or anything like that?
                                        Yes, do tell the vet. And show them everything you have (previous vet report, previous xrays, the FB posts), everything. You don't need to give the whole sorted story, but simply state your concern that perhaps you don't know whats going on with the horse pain-wise and that it is important that you understand exactly what it is and what it will take to fix it.

                                        Does your trainer go off property for lunch or leave at like 6PM or something? Because I'd schedule the vet for the time she is least likely to be inside the barn. If all else fails, schedule him during a known lesson time.
                                        ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                                        Comment


                                          And starr331, ask the vet lots of questions if you need to. Don't be shy to ask "what does that mean?". All the vets I've ever known were happy to answer questions and explain what they are doing and why. And in this case, you're going to have to be your own advocate. So use your phone to make notes of what the vet says - or just ask if you can record the examination. That way you can go back and review the process later, if you have further question.

                                          You can do this!
                                          ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

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