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  • #21
    Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

    People actually do stuff like this? Ugh.
    Well, she did say is was "wrapped".

    (that is sarcasm, just in case anyone missed the meaning of the eye roll)
    ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

    Comment


    • #22
      Have you tried running the lunge line through the bit, clipped to surcingle? It gives leverage like a draw rein, for the horse who turns his nose to the outside and tries to bolt. It *can* allow the neck to overbend and shoulder to pop out, but it takes away his ability to yank you off your feet. (I use an outside side rein to limit this.) Keep a whip active, if they stop/turn in, your leverage is gone.
      A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
      ? Albert Einstein

      ~AJ~

      Comment


      • #23
        I second using long lines. You have much more control than you would with a lunge cavesson.

        You may also try running the lunge line through the bit rings under the mouth and back around to the inside bit ring. Hope I explained that correctly.

        I used to try over the poll but I read an article somewhere that explained why you shouldn't do that and so I tried the way the article said and I found it works much better.

        My horse used to do that spook and bolt and the first time he tried it with that new method, it stopped him quick.

        I will also add that if he does it in only one direction, he may have a stifle or hock issue which should be checked out.

        You may want to restart his training completely. Start over with him like he has never done it before. You may want to look at some videos and work on some of your own techniques.

        The only reason I say this is because I was trying to lunge my horse one day and he was being a total pill. My instructor saw it and she came in and had him trotting and cantering forward and submissive without any trouble at all. So I know it was something I was doing, or rather failing to do,.

        There is a trainer that posts videos on YouTube. Not Warwick Schiller. But this man does some interesting ground work. I will try to find it and add to this post .

        Good luck. Hope this helps.








        "They'll be no butter in hell."

        Comment


        • #24
          How is the horse to lead? Does it understand to whoa, walk, trot and back off pressure? My guess it is that it is missing some basic training in hand, and panics when on the lunge. Is there are particular reason you want/need to lunge this particular horse? A horse with a strong flight response might not benefit from lunging, as lunging encourages a stronger flight response...might be better off with in hand work for training, and then riding rather than anything involving chasing.
          Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

          Comment


          • #25
            A lot of horses try this - part of their little book of tricks. A trainer from Australia got a friends' horse by using the schiffley stallion ring (sp) and he soon got over himself. He was a large WB with no manners. Personally, I don't do the training with horses that are tough - my own babies have all been much softer so I don't put myself there.
            Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
              A lot of horses try this - part of their little book of tricks. A trainer from Australia got a friends' horse by using the schiffley stallion ring (sp) and he soon got over himself. He was a large WB with no manners. Personally, I don't do the training with horses that are tough - my own babies have all been much softer so I don't put myself there.
              I've had my heels scuffed more than once by a yearling colt in a chiffney who spooked and decided to exit stage left. I never had to let go, but it happens occasionally at the Keeneland sales. A chiffney is better than a halter alone, but it definitely won't stop a bolter (used humanely).

              However, a lip chain will. I wouldn't lunge in a lip chain, but as a last resort, you could try adding a small, thin "lip bungee" hooked to the halter rings or bit rings. We used the small black, 6" bungee cords at the sales for rank colts (led with a standard chiffney or nose chain) instead of a lip chain. Very unobtrusive, milder than a lip chain, but still enough to keep their attention and reduce shenanigans.
              A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
              ? Albert Einstein

              ~AJ~

              Comment


              • #27
                My 20 year old homebred still will bolt on the longe line when he has not been exercised, but I never longe him without a chain wrapped all the way around and snapped (double wrap over halter noseband in case I lose him). He usually gets 20 feet or so before I can react - really, really quick. BUT, years ago when he was injured and I had to hand walk him, he would bolt ahead and side kick as he went past. So I used a web halter and lunge line, and also a lariat war bridle under the halter, and in my stronger hand. That limited him to one jump, as I was not kind with it. So we had a truce. Bolting and drop, spin and go was a mental thing with this horse, really talented,.luckily for him. Smart as they come. Horses from his sire line can be quirky.

                I also think that Magnesium and maybe B-1 can help the rapid-fire brain in these horses. Mine still gets a Magnesium supplement at 20.

                I had another homebred gelding that was just a whole lot of horse - big, strong and young. I had to longe him in arenas before lessons and at shows. I used the same halter/war bridle on him, as if he got to the second jump, he could pull me through the air like a kite. He did respect that war bridle and finally grew up, and I did not worry about what people thought back then, as he was quite the horse.

                Find a team roper and beg a worn out and semi-soft lariat (not a hard one), then guard it carefully. Invaluable. There must be a tutorial for putting one on correctly on YouTube, and how to use it so it will release properly, or you can flip the horse. Or send him out as above.
                Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
                www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  What happens if you run the lunge line through the inside ring of the bit and clip it back to the surcingle?

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                    Is this all about longeing?

                    Honestly IME they all have the ability to bolt on longe. I would get the horse into an arena or round pen and free longe/chase him at a gallop until you get the wiggles out, and then settle down to longe.
                    Closest to what I'd do. Except I wouldn't use a round pen or chase at a gallop necessarily but would let him settle into a brisk trot for most of the work.

                    My first conclusion would be that I'll never be able to hold on to a horse that truly decides to exit the lungeing circle, no matter what gear is on his face so I'd focus on his mindset.

                    I'd have him in an area bigger than a round pen with just a halter where yes indeed, he can leave and I'd work with him off the line. I'd keep him moving at a vigorous tiring clip letting him make all the choices regarding direction and being sure to immediately reward (by ending the work; timing and body language are important) any sign of him wanting to come in and rest.

                    No resting allowed unless he moves in towards me, even the tiniest bit at first. If he'll stand there long enough, let his breathing settle and go out and share an affectionate moment with him, then ignore him and nonchalantly head back to your zone.

                    If he so wishes, he can pick up the nonsense (anything other than focusing on you, heading towards you for a rest etc) at any point but that results in work work work

                    ​It's amazing how quickly they decide that leisurely walking in a nice circle around you off the line and of their own volition is immensely preferable to any other choice they make where hard labor is involved.

                    Over time and after a few sessions he can be tried on the line again with just a halter and as little pressure on the line as possible to start with, keeping it short and sweet (a bit of walk/trot in both directions) and rewarded with a quick end to it and lots of praise and fuss. Then I'd build on that.

                    A repeat bolt at any point would result in more workouts off the line.

                    And I don't know that I would ever completely trust a horse with a previous bolt habit such as this to be lunged anywhere not in an enclosed area. Very much depends on the horse and who is working with him.
                    One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                    William Shakespeare

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      The biggest problem with working on lack of respect/manners on the ground after the horse has learned he’s bigger and stronger is you have an increased risk iof getting knocked over or dragged around. That very much influences the decision to try to fix it yourself or send one out. Depends on personal circumstances.
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Attach side reins from the bit to the sides surcingle or the girth of the saddle just below the flap
                        Attach the lunge rein to the bit on the opposite side to where you’d be standing by threading it through the bit on your side and over the poll
                        that will make it harder for him to turn and give you more power if he does manage to turn

                        Really, horses like this need to be in a contained area so the bolt doesn’t take them anywhere. If you don’t have a manege or a round pen then use wide electric tape and step in posts to make a temporary one

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by 4LeafCloverFarm View Post

                          Well, she did say is was "wrapped".

                          (that is sarcasm, just in case anyone missed the meaning of the eye roll)
                          *inserting another eye roll*

                          How do you think a professional is going to deal with a learned dangerous behaviour? May not be a wrapped chain, but it’s going to be some technique or method that causes extreme discomfort or pain in the moment the horse is exhibiting the dangerous behaviour.

                          Most of the suggestions here are avoidance methods not corrections. Retraining a 1000+lb animal that’s learned to use its strength against you isn’t going to be pretty in the moment. The important part is to make sure it’s only a moment and ensure the before and after are kind and fair to the animal.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Mia Sorella View Post

                            *inserting another eye roll*

                            How do you think a professional is going to deal with a learned dangerous behaviour? May not be a wrapped chain, but it’s going to be some technique or method that causes extreme discomfort or pain in the moment the horse is exhibiting the dangerous behaviour.

                            Most of the suggestions here are avoidance methods not corrections. Retraining a 1000+lb animal that’s learned to use its strength against you isn’t going to be pretty in the moment. The important part is to make sure it’s only a moment and ensure the before and after are kind and fair to the animal.
                            I simply assert that using a BICYCLE chain as a noseband for a bolting horse is going to cause more issues than it solves (that is where my sarcastic comment came from - using a wrapped bicycle chain as a noseband). Solving a bolting issue by employing a method that might require stitches after the fact isn't what I would call a viable solution.

                            You can eyeroll the above statement all you want. To each his own I say. You want to have a pro use a bicycle chain on your horse, go for it. I just don't think that using a bicycle chain is "kind and fair" (as you put it) to the horse. But that's just me.
                            ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I think this is one of the few scenarios where I am apt to say "Use as much strength in tack/noseband/bit/chain as it takes to stop the behavior."

                              Again, I've seen this behavior be stopped effectively by the use of strong but properly applied counter measures. And I've seen the absence of those strong but properly applied counter measures cause this habit to become entirely set in the horse's ways.

                              The horse I mentioned in my first post was initially corrected by two people leading him, one on each side (race track style) with a chain over the nose and a chain under the chin. The horse tried to bolt and get away, and it took only two times of hitting those chains and to say "OUCH. Okay, that was a bad idea."

                              SAME horse, then switching to the rope halter and natural horsemanship methods (which do have their place and time) now gets away every.single.time.he.wants.to. Oh it may not be every time you handle him. But when he wants to be gone, he is, and he's caused injuries. I fear it's only a matter of time before he injures someone else or himself too.

                              Horses in the wild deal with each other pretty severely when they are out of line. I don't think it's out of line to employ a chain or a strong noseband when dealing with an issue that can rapidly become one of THE most dangerous situations - a potentially injured handler and a loose horse who can injure himself and others.

                              One must be judicious, fair, and have expert timing if using a strong tool, but sometimes there IS a time to use them. You have a window to fix this, but they do it too many times and they learn that a 1200 lb animal wins over a human (even one with a wrapped chain noseband) EVERY single time.

                              It's not kind or fair of the horse to shove his shoulder into you, stick his head straight up in the air, and bolt off in 1/2 a nanosecond leaving you faceplanted and bleeding in the dirt either. I would never advocate for unfair aggressive treatment of a horse. But there are times where we have to remember they are horses and to keep everyone save, including them, we may need to be firmer than any of us like to be. That is kinder in the end that having a horse who has hurt people and who can't be sold because of this behavior ending up at an auction because no one knows what to do with him and he isn't safe to handle.
                              Jennifer Baas
                              It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Mac123 Much agreed on a few of your points.

                                I am not opposed to strong correction of a badly behaved horse that is in close proximity to its handler and that can be swiftly corrected while remaining under control. My response in my first post relates to a horse bolting while being lunged (might have misread the OP). I just wouldn't engage in such a conflict.

                                If I can avoid muscling a horse to bend to my will, whether that be physically or figuratively with a bunch devices, then I will. Other than a truly dangerous animal, which I won't work with.

                                A horse doesn't have to love me but I aim for him to want to be with me. A horse bolting off the lunging circle doesn't want to be with me. I can attempt to forcefully change his mind on that score but I'll always have that little voice in my head, needling me that he hasn't truly bought in. And at some unforeseen and unforeseeable future opportunity he may take advantage of a lapse on a handler's part and attempt another bad, bad move.

                                I don't want a horse to be looking for those lapses, I want him to roll his eyes and wait for me to sort myself out.

                                Not remotely a pro but this general philosophy is where I've landed after many years of missteps, close calls, and thankfully some learning with my own guinea..I mean, horses

                                Also very circumstance specific as to how I handle a training issue. Including having a trusty pro come in and help if needed.
                                Last edited by ohmyheck; Sep. 10, 2019, 06:54 PM. Reason: clarity
                                One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                William Shakespeare

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by ohmyheck View Post
                                  Mac123 Much agreed on a few of your points.

                                  I am not opposed to strong correction of a badly behaved horse that is in close proximity to its handler and that can be swiftly corrected while remaining under control. My own response relates to a horse bolting while being lunged (might have misread the OP). I just wouldn't engage in such a conflict.

                                  If I can avoid muscling a horse to bend to my will, whether that be physically or figuratively with a bunch devices, then I will. Other than a truly dangerous animal, which I won't work with.

                                  A horse doesn't have to love me but I aim for him to want to be with me. A horse bolting off the lunging circle doesn't want to be with me. I can attempt to forcefully change his mind on that score but I'll always have that little voice in my head, needling me that he hasn't truly bought in. And at some unforeseen and unforeseeable future opportunity he may take advantage of a lapse on a handler's part and attempt another bad, bad move.

                                  I don't want a horse to be looking for those lapses, I want him to roll his eyes and wait for me to sort myself out.

                                  Not remotely a pro but this general philosophy is where I've landed after many years of missteps, close calls, and thankfully some learning with my own guinea..I mean, horses

                                  Also very circumstance specific as to how I handle a training issue. Including having a trusty pro come in and help if needed.
                                  It is harder to retrain a horse than it is to train a horse. It is not necessary that the person who owns the horse now is the one who trained it.
                                  It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                                    What happens if you run the lunge line through the inside ring of the bit and clip it back to the surcingle?
                                    Bridles are built to be bridles, They will not stand up to that sort of treatment, and you may well be left with no horse and pieces of bridle.

                                    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                    Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      ohmyheck- Most of my horses liked me. came willingly in the field, but some just couldn't resist an easy way out ot work , if possible. Which is why I always longed in full regalia. Never started, doesn't have to be later fixed.
                                      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        merrygoround Agreed... nasty habits never started in the first place is ideal . But it's interesting to read all the different ways people would train them 'out' once they're engrained.
                                        One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                        William Shakespeare

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by merrygoround View Post

                                          Bridles are built to be bridles, They will not stand up to that sort of treatment, and you may well be left with no horse and pieces of bridle.
                                          Well, I guess it depends on how bad the behavior is. The point of the set-up is that you have enough control to catch the horse before he spins.

                                          I start all my horses in long-lines with the inside line run 'backwards' - through bit to surcingle. It seems to help them wrap their minds around what's going on. Never had an issue with the set-up, but I can't say any of them truly challenged it. It does require competent handling and good judgement, but so do most things related to horses.

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