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Steve Guerdat on the Inevitable "Mess" That Will be Tokyo

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  • Steve Guerdat on the Inevitable "Mess" That Will be Tokyo

    https://horsesport.com/horse-news/st...le-tokyo-mess/

  • #2
    Oh boy..... That's a lot of big names speaking out

    Comment


    • #3
      Wow! O’Connor is an ass. While what he said about China might be true, there was no reason to say it in such a nasty and disparaging way, especially as the then representative of the jumping committee. Not surprising though, glad he resigned. Rantzau’s comment was pretty harsh too. If you really care about the visibility and the spectators of the sport, instead of insulting these countries with newer programs, you ask the FEI what they plan to do to help get these countries to be competitive at this level. The insults make you sound like a spoiled child who’s mad that new kids get to play in your sandbox.

      Ludgar and Steve brought up good points against this change without resorting to petty jabs.
      Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Eric isn't happy about it either. I tend to agree with these riders though. It's the world stage. You're right, the FEI should help those riders and countries get to the Olympic level, but that doesn't mean changing the format to let them in if they can't qualify like in the past.
        The comment about equine welfare is important as well.

        https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/sports...hanges-348738/

        Comment


        • #5
          So what happened to the substitution thing? Is that still part of the new scoring they are using at the Olympics?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GoodTimes View Post
            Eric isn't happy about it either. I tend to agree with these riders though. It's the world stage. You're right, the FEI should help those riders and countries get to the Olympic level, but that doesn't mean changing the format to let them in if they can't qualify like in the past.
            comment about equine welfare is important as well.

            https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/sports...hanges-348738/
            The first article mentions that the IOC requested changes. Equestrian isn’t the only one with a change to their team format. Gymnastics had to drop one team member as well and they are now only at four instead of five. I don’t think the push for more countries to be represented came from the FEI. I’m not a fan of this either, but insulting your fellow competitors is not going to make those on the other side reevaluate their position.

            Interesting that Eric mentions Cool Runnings. From the Wikipedia article about the actual bob sledding team: “In a show of sporting camaraderie across national boundaries, other bobsledders were quick to give them guidance and support.”

            The format cannot be changed this late in the Olympic cycle. Put aside the snarky comments about the newbie countries and use your expertise to provide them support as your fellow competitors at the Games. They’re most likely aware they are not on the same level as the Erics and Ludgars of the sport, but it does not mean they deserve to be publicly ridiculed by their peers.
            Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
              So what happened to the substitution thing? Is that still part of the new scoring they are using at the Olympics?
              The mid event substitution? This article says it’s still in the new format:

              https://horsesport.com/horse-news/er...umping-format/

              and also give give more info on the pressure from the IOC
              Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                The first article mentions that the IOC requested changes. Equestrian isn’t the only one with a change to their team format. Gymnastics had to drop one team member as well and they are now only at four instead of five. I don’t think the push for more countries to be represented came from the FEI. I’m not a fan of this either, but insulting your fellow competitors is not going to make those on the other side reevaluate their position.

                Interesting that Eric mentions Cool Runnings. From the Wikipedia article about the actual bob sledding team: “In a show of sporting camaraderie across national boundaries, other bobsledders were quick to give them guidance and support.”

                The format cannot be changed this late in the Olympic cycle. Put aside the snarky comments about the newbie countries and use your expertise to provide them support as your fellow competitors at the Games. They’re most likely aware they are not on the same level as the Erics and Ludgars of the sport, but it does not mean they deserve to be publicly ridiculed by their peers.
                Realistically, riders can't be expected to coach other teams at the Olympics. Countries have their coaches, most of whom would not welcome interference even if the language barrier was not a consideration, which it is.

                I took the article to be a concern that some teams will not be prepared. We all know what can happen in jumping when people and horses are not ready for the level, and no one wants to witness it, especially on the world stage of the Olympics.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                  Wow! O’Connor is an ass. While what he said about China might be true, there was no reason to say it in such a nasty and disparaging way, especially as the then representative of the jumping committee. Not surprising though, glad he resigned. Rantzau’s comment was pretty harsh too. If you really care about the visibility and the spectators of the sport, instead of insulting these countries with newer programs, you ask the FEI what they plan to do to help get these countries to be competitive at this level. The insults make you sound like a spoiled child who’s mad that new kids get to play in your sandbox.

                  Ludgar and Steve brought up good points against this change without resorting to petty jabs.
                  At least Cian recognizes he’s not suited for a front-and-center committee posting.

                  The IOC is primarily responsible for this farce. It’s a change that needs to be introduced gradually. There’s too much risk involved for both horses and riders. All the sport needs is a death or life-altering injury on international telecasts....just no. The alternative is, as O’Connor indelicately stated, is to dumb the courses way down.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skydy View Post

                    Realistically, riders can't be expected to coach other teams at the Olympics. Countries have their coaches, most of whom would not welcome interference even if the language barrier was not a consideration, which it is.

                    I took the article to be a concern that some teams will not be prepared. We all know what can happen in jumping when people and horses are not ready for the level, and no one wants to witness it, especially on the world stage of the Olympics.
                    Not coaching, but they can treat them with dignity and give them encouragement, that’s what I meant by support. The current “cool kids” of the sport can be seen congratulating and consoling each other at competitions regardless of which nations they represent. I think equestrian sports are very cool and unique in that way. The competitors all tend to be very friendly with each other even at the competitions where the stakes are high. That same courtesy should be extended to the newbies too.

                    I don’t like this new format either and agree with the points these riders brought up, but the way some expressed their concerns is not a good look for the sport either and gives off a sense of elitism.
                    Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                      Not coaching, but they can treat them with dignity and give them encouragement, that’s what I meant by support. The current “cool kids” of the sport can be seen congratulating and consoling each other at competitions regardless of which nations they represent. I think equestrian sports are very cool and unique in that way. The competitors all tend to be very friendly with each other even at the competitions where the stakes are high. That same courtesy should be extended to the newbies too.

                      I don’t like this new format either and agree with the points these riders brought up, but the way some expressed their concerns is not a good look for the sport either and gives off a sense of elitism.
                      Have you seen the "cool kids" treat the "newbies" badly at competitions? I'd be very surprised if that is so.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                        Wow! O’Connor is an ass. While what he said about China might be true, there was no reason to say it in such a nasty and disparaging way, especially as the then representative of the jumping committee. Not surprising though, glad he resigned. Rantzau’s comment was pretty harsh too. If you really care about the visibility and the spectators of the sport, instead of insulting these countries with newer programs, you ask the FEI what they plan to do to help get these countries to be competitive at this level. The insults make you sound like a spoiled child who’s mad that new kids get to play in your sandbox.

                        Ludgar and Steve brought up good points against this change without resorting to petty jabs.
                        I agree with you. While I understand the concern about an injury happening on this world stage, there is never any excuse to be a jerk to people (or countries) who don’t have the same level of competitiveness YET. It is fine to express concerns but this comes off as an entitled bully. In a sport that is perceived my most average Joes to be elitist, with winning being based on how big a trust fund one has, the least the big names in the sport can do is not act like jerks.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by skydy View Post
                          ..........
                          I took the article to be a concern that some teams will not be prepared. We all know what can happen in jumping when people and horses are not ready for the level, and no one wants to witness it, especially on the world stage of the Olympics.
                          As we just saw at Burghley, where it was just very dam lucky that there wasn't a bad outcome from an influx of riders not up to the test. The frangibles saved many from serious injuries and maybe worse. And, quite frankly, from their own bad judgments on course.

                          But the Olympic courses have always been notable for the alternate routes that do substantially lower the difficulty. The alternate routes allow mid-level riders to complete, but no way to be in the top 20 over the alternate routes. That's not so hard to do.

                          Rio 2016 was rated the toughest course in the world as of that date. But a large cadre of not-top-ranked riders, possibly the majority of the field, completed without jumping faults over the alternate routes. They were no threat to the medals. Good for them to have prepared well and competed well, making good judgments and being able to say they completed for their country. I'm ok with that.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post

                            As we just saw at Burghley, where it was just very dam lucky that there wasn't a bad outcome from an influx of riders not up to the test. The frangibles saved many from serious injuries and maybe worse. And, quite frankly, from their own bad judgments on course.

                            But the Olympic courses have always been notable for the alternate routes that do substantially lower the difficulty. The alternate routes allow mid-level riders to complete, but no way to be in the top 20 over the alternate routes. That's not so hard to do.

                            Rio 2016 was rated the toughest course in the world as of that date. But a large cadre of not-top-ranked riders, possibly the majority of the field, completed without jumping faults over the alternate routes. They were no threat to the medals. Good for them to have prepared well and competed well, making good judgments and being able to say they completed for their country. I'm ok with that.
                            Guerdat was speaking about Show Jumping I believe, not Eventing. I don't think that China is fielding an Eventing team, though I could be wrong.
                            Last edited by skydy; Sep. 8, 2019, 07:29 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mara View Post

                              At least Cian recognizes he’s not suited for a front-and-center committee posting.

                              The IOC is primarily responsible for this farce. It’s a change that needs to be introduced gradually. There’s too much risk involved for both horses and riders. All the sport needs is a death or life-altering injury on international telecasts....just no. The alternative is, as O’Connor indelicately stated, is to dumb the courses way down.
                              I personally don't like Cian, as a human, but I totally agree with him in this regard. It will be a farce or someone will die or be seriously injured. Seriously. that's a distinct possibility.

                              Not good for the sport either way, and not good for the horses.

                              I'm also temperamentally unsuited
                              Let me apologize in advance.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Does anyone else remember how terrifying the first Japanese Show Jumpers were? They had heart and desire but no technique. They subsequently received instruction by coaches from the West ( I can't for the life of me remember who it was, but they were well qualified) and are now riding very well in both Show Jumping and Eventing.

                                I wonder if the Chinese will be afforded the same opportunities for coaching by more experienced professionals. The Chinese government is not big on outside influence.


                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Ludger Beerbaum has been running a rider's academy in China for some time and has spent a lot of time bringing on young Chinese talent:

                                  https://riesenbeck-international.com...eijing-masters

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The sad part is that is will be the horses that will suffer for it... Bring in more countries, maybe not so experienced, try to show at the Olympic level and tear the heart out of the horse that's out there giving its all. In life, there aren't trophies for everyone.
                                    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      there's a contingent of Chinese show jumpers at a yard in Holland, but I can't remember whose.
                                      Let me apologize in advance.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by nutmeg View Post
                                        Ludger Beerbaum has been running a rider's academy in China for some time and has spent a lot of time bringing on young Chinese talent:

                                        https://riesenbeck-international.com...eijing-masters
                                        It reads more (to me) that he is developing the show and trying to help the riders by promoting the riding academy, not teaching. "I have been involved in the Chinese Equestrian Sport market since 2006."
                                        His sentence ... (International competition), that is the target of the Academy and what I would like to be acknowledged for in 5,8, or 10 years time gives the impression that they riders have a long way to go before they are ready.

                                        I didn't get the impression that he is teaching there in any consistent manner. Traveling through "Asia" (big area involving many countries) and inviting riders to come train in Germany is nice, but I don't think Chinese riders are being allowed that privilege.

                                        The article seems more of an, how we are doing in our efforts to open the market for horse sports in China, than a claim that he is training Chinese riders. Again, not his fault that China restricts the travel of its sporting citizens.

                                        Comment

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