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Pricing the Complicated Horse (with AA-show record)

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  • #21
    Originally posted by kara155 View Post

    HOWEVER: He may or may not always jump. When he's good, he's really, really good. When he does stop, it happens 2-3 strides away from the jump - never a "dirty stop" - it's more of a slow-motion spook. And he's not a particularly "spooky" horse - it's only triggered by jumps (or stacks of poles that resemble jumps) coupled with any tension or anxiety he senses from the rider.
    I think you will have to be very honest with yourself about how often this happens. No one wants to go into the ring with a 50/50 chance that the horse is simply not going to want to play ball that day. That isn't fun, and, frankly, selling him on to a jumping home under those circumstances will be setting him up to fail.

    I do think that someone on relative budget will be willing to take a chance if it really is occasional, and he then can be convinced to jump around afterward. Does he have the stop/look, and then jump the fence on the second attempt and continue on? Or does it become a point of contention?


    • #22
      I’m not currently shopping. But I’m a good riding amateur who would take on this kind of project. I’d look to spend around 10k with hopes of a solid program would bring him to the point of a 3’ type with other future good riders and looking to sell him in a year or so.

      I bought a similar type with a different issue (lead changes) summer of last year for 8k. Less the record though. I was able to turn him around and would have had him for sale this fall if he wouldn’t have gone and died on me.

      I then followed up that buy on a horse with no record and no holes but a little bit of age for around double what I’m recommending for your price.

      Your kind of buyer is out there. But whomever said finding the right rider will be hard is right.
      My adventures as a working rider


      • #23
        I think this is something you disclose clearly in the sale ad, while trying to sell him for a price in the under $20k range. The challenge, I think, is that if he's really picky about riders and comes undone so easily, you really risk setting him back every time the "wrong" rider tries him.

        But I don't necessarily see any harm in marketing him with a good show video, a low price, and very clear disclosures, and seeing what comes of it. I recently saw an ad on Facebook for a similar horse: Big record, relatively low pricetag, disclosure that he won't jump for just anyone. That one was from a big dealer, and she wanted to basically sell just off the video. So it is maybe possible. I would think the lower the price and the better (and more recent) the video, the more likely you could convince someone serious that it would be worth taking a risk.

        I'm the kind of amateur who rides relatively well and doesn't have a huge budget, so I might be open to a good horse with a known hole, as long as I thought I could manage it. But I would probably, personally, want to arrange some kind of lease-option deal to be sure the match made sense for my program.


        • #24
          My guess is you could get $15-20k for him right now as an amateur dressage prospect with the temperament you describe. He's probably ready to go at first level and likely has the athleticism to do 2nd and 3rd after some training.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


          • #25
            OP, is this your horse? Or is their an owner you are working fir to get him sold?
            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


            • #26
              OP, look at this horse like a racehorse. Good racehorses get sold for big money at the yearling sales, go on to have some varying degree of success or failure at the track, then do other things. They don't remain racehorses forever.

              Your horse had his time as a show hunter, with some success. Let him go on to do other things.
              "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu


              • #27
                Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                My guess is you could get $15-20k for him right now as an amateur dressage prospect with the temperament you describe. He's probably ready to go at first level and likely has the athleticism to do 2nd and 3rd after some training.
                I agree with this option. Find a decent trainer in your area, explain your problem, pay them to ride the horse once or twice AND in a video. Presuming he has correct changes, make sure they are in video. He's got the size, he's a WB, he's otherwise sane and has done horse shows. He would sell.

                IMO if you try to find him a home that involves jumping, it can only have a crappy ending.


                • #28
                  Sounds like he needs his special person who is willing to drop him back down to 2'3"-2'6" and raise the bar slowly over MONTHS. However, that is not guaranteed to work. If he is pretty and fancy and could do dressage, maybe get a dressage trainer on him 3 months and go from there. As a jumper, I would be inclined to pay $5K because whatever I'm going to do has a slim chance of working. If it does, major score for me. If it doesn't, I'm hosed. I'm an eventer by the way and we sometimes see this in horses that were overfaced and scared themselves.
                  "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope


                  • #29
                    Like CindyCRNA above, I have seen horses that were overfaced behave like this. They were forced, tried to
                    please anyway, hurt themselves and got scared. Then got punished for being scared and not wanting to get hurt more.

                    You can do this to a horse in a week. Easy. One of the very few ways you can really ruin a horse. Never saw one completely get over this. They trusted and were betrayed and when you show them a fence or even get near one, they remember they did as they were asked and got hurt then asked again and punished if they won’t try.. They are done. Quite happy doing something else, try their hearts out for you...long as there’s no jump involved.

                    Sorry. Shouldn’t have happened but a career change would seem to be in his best interests. Especially since it seems this has happened to him twice in his short life. Don’t blame him one bit for reacting this way. It’s self defense.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                    • #30
                      I have a horse who is kind of similar, very sensitive. He's almost 18h, great and very fancy looking. We moved him over to jumpers from the hunters and for the most part, he is awesome. But sometimes I feel like he doesn't really like his job.

                      He is unreal fun on the flat, he can do every kind of lateral move you want, he'll happily canter half passes for you, do big expressive changes if you set him up for them, collect extend etc. He is a beautiful mover and really wants to please.

                      I do not feel right selling this horse. I just feel like some equitation barn would get him and torture him to make him quiet and competitive.

                      Do dressage folks do leases? Are they different than HJ leases? Is my best bet to find a nice dressage trainer?

                      I would really like to retire him properly, he is such a kind loving horse, he deserves that for sure.


                      • #31
                        Dressage folks do leases, but they tend to be free/care leases unless the horse is doing the mid/upper levels.

                        OP: I'd recommend you find a local dressage trainer with a solid show record to come ride him a few times. If he can be really soft and pleasant at first level (which most hunters should be capable of), you might find it best from a cost perspective to sell him without additional dressage training.


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                          Dressage folks do leases, but they tend to be free/care leases unless the horse is doing the mid/upper levels.
                          I agree with this. You give the average dressage trainer your modest lease price in terms of hunter pricing for a dressage prospect and they will go . But greysfordays doing a cheap to free/care lease on your horse could be a way to step him down appropriately off of your bill. If his flatwork is good enough at the moment to get someone their bronze maybe you could get a small-ish fee with the lease.


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by OnDeck View Post
                            I would sell this horse with full disclosure that horse will stop with the wrong person. Then it's going to be a long search for the right person. His price is whatever that person is willing to pay. I imagine this type of horse going to a good riding junior on a budget, probably the kid of a pro. If he jumps with you it's at least worth a shot to find someone else he will trust... the stars may align.


                            • #34
                              It seems that you and your trainer have figured out the key to this horse. Your best bet would be a scenario where the buyer or potential buyer could spend time riding him with you and or your trainer to see if they "work." Despite the successful record, selling him as a "show horse" is probably off the table.
                              There might be a good young pro looking to make a name who would be willing or a good riding ammy who would be willing to try a horse like this but his price would have to reflect the fact that as is, he isn't a legit show hunter.
                              The other option is to allow him to try other things like dressage or fox hunting. Maybe he's just looking for a change?
                              F O.B
                              Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                              Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


                              • #35
                                Another vanishing one time poster?
                                Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                                  Another vanishing one time poster?
                                  Nope, she’s got 6 posts and describes this same horse spooking at “ everything in the ring” last November, check her profile.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                                  • #37
                                    This is the exact type of horse I look for to lease for my clients or buy if the cost is right. Currently have one that had early stage ring bone. Owner wanted to have him stop jumping and a good home. Have had him for two years and he’s a great Dressage horse. He’s leased out to a client and teaches two lessons per week.

                                    I did get him for free with understanding that that I can’t maintain him and he is no longer sound with all options for vet care used, I will euth. Sad but I completely understand and agreed. I’m still in contact with old owner and send video clips and updates.

                                    Something similar to my situation may be worth looking into so you stop hemorrhaging money immediately. Now your horse is sound and quite young so would be worth some money for sure unlike the one I have who was 10 and had a bad and short prognosis.

                                    I would be curious if there are horses like this common in the hunter/jumper world? I don’t have a lot of connections in that world and would certainly be interested in horses that have been injured or older need maintenance etc. maybe I’ll start another thread....


                                    • #38
                                      OP, I would try to sell this horse to a non-jumping home. This is a well-trained horse who enjoys flatwork, right? Yes, there is a buyer. The buyer is a rider who is stepping down from h/j stuff: maybe less and less interested in jumping, and more interesting in just riding at home for fun, or showing in local shows in english flat classes. This is going to be a low $ sale, but yes, this buyer is out there. IMHO, your horse may have a problem that is developing, slowly, regarding eye sight or some other low-level neuro problem. Best wishes to find this buyer!