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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by bip View Post

    I assumed he meant we would all be deprived of choosing to use an unlicensed doctor?
    Hey, because we should all get to choose. I mean, why license doctors anyway?
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

      The idea that sexually abusing minors is abhorrent is not a “new” social norm.
      Again, I beg to differ, as the definition of sexual abuse has shifted as well in the common vernacular.

      We now understand grooming, which we (as a society) didn’t when Lolita was a popular movie.

      Rape, a violent crime, of female adults was way more normalized - take a look at movies where a teen loses her virginity at a party while drunk and how they were treated then in pop culture vs now. It *was* viewed that young women were more desirable than older women by men (which is why there is a whole “underage” genre of porn).

      It also does make a difference as to whether the victim was female or male as to how it was thought about, and a teen vs 10, which is why people were way more freaked out about Sandusky than other cases which haven’t even come to trial yet.

      As a young model my parents warned me about what to expect from adult men. It was that commonplace that they were undecided about whether they wanted me to participate and my parents were really progressive for the time.

      One more time for the people in the back, i think this is a GOOD change - those things really weren’t ok then and they aren’t ok now, but they were attitudes that many grew up with. The outcry is just that, people struggling to adjust to new normals.

      I still think SafeSport was RIGHT to set down GM the same way I think it is right for other people to be prosecuted for things that *have* shifted in society. It’s necessary for the shift to occur, the same way that forgiveness of the Nazi really isn’t possible, even though the person’s actions were not “different” than others in their culture at that time.

      If we ignore these cultural attitudes we sound silly to people who were there - we can’t whitewash history that way. But what we can say is, you’re right, things were different. But just because they were different doesn’t mean it was ever truly right to do x y and z. This helps us when we need to move the next thing forward, or act in the face of “normalcy” around us.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zirgs View Post

        Aug. 14, 2019, 07:33 AM
        About George Morris on the SS list Mia Sorella
        I am sorry to hear about your abuse. I have a MSW degree and have been the first to tell a young adult and child that their abuse was not their fault. I have had some vomit on me, as they expel the horrors of their abuse. There is no excuse to abuse.

        Society has oppressed these conversations, thus children were not empowered to speak. It is the silence that has allowed abuse to fester and not allow closure.

        It is good that we speak openly and constructively.

        However, to dictate to me whom I am allowed to work with and select for my children is just as abusive.

        In healthcare several decades ago maternal and child death rates at birth were very high. Rather than fine hospitals and dictate solutions, hospitals were required to publically post their Birth Vitals and Statistics. As parents were empowered to choose where to deliver their children, hospitals responded to fix problems. The medical specialty of OBGYN, Prenatal Care and NICU spawned from the posting of performance.

        Tranaparency and education are constructive mechanisms to make lasting change.

        Dictating and stripping parents of their rights to choose harms all of us and violates our freedoms.
        Are you suggesting each trainer should come with a number of how many kids they diddled over a lifetime and there's some arbitrary number that is okay and that is not with you? I think the point is here that ONE is too many, and it's in the best interests of ALL THE OTHER KIDS to keep these people away from kids if they're deemed a threat to the kids' physical/mental well-being.

        Again as people have pointed out, YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE- you can choose to continue to patronize the businesses of people who are in the sport for the wrong reason. Vote with your wallet and leave USEF, that is absolutely a choice you are capable of making without repercussion.

        Anyone else feel awful that the unrated circuits will be the receptacle of some absolute human garbage? They don't deserve that.

        Edit to add: I didn't think I'd see a different argument against Safe Sport come up with all the squawkers having a hive mind. But this person has changed that opinion. Actually stunned.
        Last edited by specifiedcupcake; Aug. 14, 2019, 09:04 AM.

        Comment


        • Zirgs - there is one person on the list who was charged about 20 years ago with 3rd degree sodomy in another state for an incident involving a 14 year old girl when he was 30. Navarro. He plead guilty.

          I’m assuming that is who you are speaking of since you also discussed this persons business contacts being aired out on this thread, etc.

          Navarro does not have a good reputation locally. It’s not just a matter of his inclusion on the Safe Sport list. Multiple people have shared stories of resume inflation. I’ve heard multiple stories of poor conditions at the farm and poor horsemanship. In addition to that, his bio has details that simply do not come across as credible. It’s not just the people posting on this forum who think so.

          As far as surveillance tapes from 20 years ago exonerating him... really? Have you seen them? Or were you told this by... the guy who pleaded guilty?

          Predators lie. It’s what they do. Routinely. There are plenty of liars in the horse would, who don’t have a record for a sex crime involving a minor... but are still dirtbags and liars, and all about hustling for a buck.

          Be careful. Some of these people are charming and really seem lovely with kids.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Midge View Post

            Hey, because we should all get to choose. I mean, why license doctors anyway?
            I just use my barber who is also a dentist and a doctor. Because it's the frontier, and it's 1880.
            Let me apologize in advance.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

              I hate to bring this up, and this is no defense of George, but the 1990s were still 25-30 years ago, as evidenced by my upcoming high school reunion

              We don’t mind the Nazi going to trial after so many years because there is no statute of limitations on murder, but sexual crimes do in most states. Not saying it’s right, just stating a fact.
              https://www.rainn.org/state-state-gu...es-limitations

              I suspect that there will be increased pressure to change these types of laws now that more egregious behavior is coming to light. Like it or not, society has changed dramatically even in the time that I’ve been alive WRT the acceptability of certain behavior. Doesn’t make it right, not saying that, just saying that there *was* a different standard, even in the 90/s. Watch some 90s commercials where teens as young as 12 were highly sexualized as models. Brooke Shields is an example. https://www.theguardian.com/theguard...ild-photograph

              Of course, that was just for girls, sexualizing young boys hasn’t been normalized since the Romans.

              Our society is shifting, and I’m glad of it, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that some would be struggling to adjust, not just because GM is a hero, in their eyes but also because attitudes were different when they grew up. Epstein’s parties that he is being (now posthumously) jailed for? That behavior was so normalized in the modeling world that it was just part and parcel of becoming one.

              I’m still glad they’ve chosen to set down GM and others as it is necessary for things to get better as a society. It’s just a painful change for some people so the outcry is expected. I don’t think it necessarily means that they are awful people, but rather people do adjust slowly to “newer” social ideas.
              Expanding on this, once I had time to think past the obvious abuse.

              Humans are all about looking for help, looking for those that can help us do any we do better, looking up to our parents, other family and friends and mentors.
              Just anyone that can help us better ourselves and give us validation that we matter and/or can do what we are doing, here just being around to us glorious horses we adore, or even riding and showing horses.

              Being considered someone's "underling" is something we all strive for at times, if as kids for protection and learning from, thru all our lives to become better at what we do. by learning from those that know more and have the resources we lack.
              That striving to learn from someone else, to get ahead by doing whatever to get and keep that one person's interest, seems to be hard wired in most of us.
              That works great for our species to bring up our young and keep advancing on the experiences and resources of others.

              Who has not had great parents, or a neighbor that helped, a coach that made us be successful at what we wanted to do, a riding instructor like my first one, that taught me how to really see horses as a being in my life to care for, that we were responsible for and their protectors.
              It made a big impression on me as a 12 year old when he stood up to the owner of the riding center, that wanted to take one sweet school horse out with his friends for a trail ride on her day off.
              He would not let him and was deadly serious about it, she needed that rest. The horse got her day of rest, the boss relented quietly.
              Our obligation to do right by our horses comes first, even when you are the boss.

              When we run into trouble is when those in power over others, the employers, coaches, priests, teachers, parents, family members and well loved friends, mentors, employers, presidents, when ANYONE with power of any kind over another is an ABUSER, abuser of any kind, humans, other animals, any other in this world that some may abuse.
              We need to remember that many trainers and coaches and etc. never abused anyone.
              Even when they were in a situation where anyone, not just abusers, could take the advantage of the situation to abuse.

              To stop abusers is what we have laws for.

              Those that say, well, people could take advantage of others in some cultures and situations without being really abuse?
              Sorry, repeating, that has never been so.
              What has happened is that some abusers have abused the situation into pushing the boundaries of what is right.
              Those with similar powers that are not abusers have always looked down at them and not gone there, not abused.

              Abusing the trust of underlings of any kind is and has always been wrong.
              That some do it has always been wrong.
              We have always had laws trying to control abusers of all kinds.
              Are there also some abusing those laws with false accusations?
              That also is built into those laws, due process:

              due proc·ess
              /d(y)o͞o prəˈses/
              noun
              1. fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement.
              All of us have to be mindful how we may make statements or repeat what is questionable so we may not end up also abusing the process for or against anyone.

              The current me-too and now SS for sports is exposing those abusers that thought they could get by with it.
              Of course that change to now not only look the other way as so many were, but having a way to prosecute and stop abuse will affect many others than just the abusers.
              Just think, all those that were abused were more than just the individuals abused, but so many others that process changed for worse.

              It is about time, is all I have to say.

              Comment


              • Zirgs That’s a bizarre defense. Society doesn’t let you choose to associate your kids with convicted murderers either, because generally speaking, we don’t want your kids to get murdered which is the whole reason for the corrections concept - to protect society.

                specifiedcupcake the unrateds have always had this problem. Before official set downs because of SafeSport the local circuits have always been full of “interesting” folks. Honestly I don’t think this is much of a change, but I do wonder whether parents will choose the unrateds to show with “the big names who have been set down” vs the rateds in the future.

                Comment


                • If you are wondering about statutes, wonder no more...

                  http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/he-...4C2?li=BBnb7Kz

                  The case against GHM is no different. Even if it is from 50 years ago....
                  When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                  www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                  http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                    Expanding on this, once I had time to think past the obvious abuse.

                    Humans are all about looking for help, looking for those that can help us do any we do better, looking up to our parents, other family and friends and mentors.
                    Just anyone that can help us better ourselves and give us validation that we matter and/or can do what we are doing, here just being around to us glorious horses we adore, or even riding and showing horses.

                    Being considered someone's "underling" is something we all strive for at times, if as kids for protection and learning from, thru all our lives to become better at what we do. by learning from those that know more and have the resources we lack.
                    That striving to learn from someone else, to get ahead by doing whatever to get and keep that one person's interest, seems to be hard wired in most of us.
                    That works great for our species to bring up our young and keep advancing on the experiences and resources of others.

                    Who has not had great parents, or a neighbor that helped, a coach that made us be successful at what we wanted to do, a riding instructor like my first one, that taught me how to really see horses as a being in my life to care for, that we were responsible for and their protectors.
                    It made a big impression on me as a 12 year old when he stood up to the owner of the riding center, that wanted to take one sweet school horse out with his friends for a trail ride on her day off.
                    He would not let him and was deadly serious about it, she needed that rest. The horse got her day of rest, the boss relented quietly.
                    Our obligation to do right by our horses comes first, even when you are the boss.

                    When we run into trouble is when those in power over others, the employers, coaches, priests, teachers, parents, family members and well loved friends, mentors, employers, presidents, when ANYONE with power of any kind over another is an ABUSER, abuser of any kind, humans, other animals, any other in this world that some may abuse.
                    We need to remember that many trainers and coaches and etc. never abused anyone.

                    To stop abusers is what we have laws for.

                    Those that say, well, people could take advantage of others in some cultures and situations without being really abuse?
                    Sorry, that has never been so.
                    What has happened is that some abusers have abused the situation into pushing the boundaries of what is right.
                    Those with similar powers that are not abusers have always looked down at them and not gone there, not abused.

                    Abusing the trust of underlings of any kind is and has always been wrong.
                    That some do it has always been wrong.
                    We have always had laws trying to control abusers of all kinds.
                    Are there also some abusing those laws with false accusations?
                    That also is built into those laws, due process:

                    due proc·ess
                    /d(y)o͞o prəˈses/
                    noun
                    1. fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement.
                    All of us have to be mindful how we may make statements or repeat what is questionable so we may not end up also abusing the process for or against anyone.

                    The current me-too and now SS for sports is exposing those abusers that thought they could get by with it.
                    Of course that change to now not only look the other way as so many were, but having a way to prosecute and stop abuse will affect many others than just the abusers.
                    Just think, all those that were abused were more than just the individuals abused, but so many others that process changed for worse.

                    It is about time, is all I have to say.
                    I’m a bit confused by your post, Bluey, but I do agree. France is now changing their laws on consent for just this reason https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8052766.html

                    Keep in mind, I am ALSO not saying that committing these crimes despite a cultural norm about them is ok. It’s not ok. It was never ok. But it was accepted, tacitly. It’s a very good thing that we are changing it because maybe other things have a shot at changing too.

                    For instance, young girls are pressured to grow up and be more responsible than young boys of the same age. I believe this is directly connected to our cultural beliefs that young girls are sexually mature “earlier” than boys. Again, not right, but definitely in our culture.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                      Zirgs That’s a bizarre defense. Society doesn’t let you choose to associate your kids with convicted murderers either, because generally speaking, we don’t want your kids to get murdered which is the whole reason for the corrections concept - to protect society.

                      specifiedcupcake the unrateds have always had this problem. Before official set downs because of SafeSport the local circuits have always been full of “interesting” folks. Honestly I don’t think this is much of a change, but I do wonder whether parents will choose the unrateds to show with “the big names who have been set down” vs the rateds in the future.
                      OneGrayPony Not true. In the judicial sustem, once someone has served their time, they live amongst us. The SafeSport program both extends the boundaries of the legal system by extending punishment duration, and more concerning, they ban people that the legal system found innocent or exonerated, because SafeSport has the power to ban based on their interpretation of risk, which goes beyond our legal system. That is what the Safe Sport law allows, and why there is legitimate concern for all of us that it violates our Constitution. Unlike Federal, State and local laws for which we can vote in representatives, SafeSport creates their codes without our representation.

                      So OneGrayPony if someone reports you, and you are found exhonerated in the legal system, SafeSport can still ban you.

                      Comment


                      • Zirgs but that’s why the sexual predator has no protection from being listed in a neighborhood watch list and sexual offender registry. They don’t really get to just “come back” and live among us.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

                          For instance, young girls are pressured to grow up and be more responsible than young boys of the same age. I believe this is directly connected to our cultural beliefs that young girls are sexually mature “earlier” than boys. Again, not right, but definitely in our culture.
                          Or that we acknowledge predatory nature in men, and place the onus on victims rather than victimizers.

                          As it goes, instead of teaching girls how not to get raped, let's teach boys (and men) how not to rape.
                          Let me apologize in advance.

                          Comment


                          • So OneGrayPony if someone reports you, and you are found exhonerated in the legal system, SafeSport can still ban you.
                            The legal system finds you not guilty under the standard of reasonable doubt.

                            The legal system does not exonerate anyone, or "find someone innocent" despite all the statements on the courthouse steps.

                            Also, the medical, legal and academic worlds can all strip licenses or ban participants who are not convicted in either criminal or civil court. Please explain why trainers and coaches in the horse world should be held to a different standard.
                            The plural of anecdote is not data.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Zirgs View Post

                              Aug. 14, 2019, 07:33 AM
                              About George Morris on the SS list Mia Sorella
                              I am sorry to hear about your abuse. I have a MSW degree and have been the first to tell a young adult and child that their abuse was not their fault. I have had some vomit on me, as they expel the horrors of their abuse. There is no excuse to abuse.

                              Society has oppressed these conversations, thus children were not empowered to speak. It is the silence that has allowed abuse to fester and not allow closure.

                              It is good that we speak openly and constructively.

                              However, to dictate to me whom I am allowed to work with and select for my children is just as abusive.

                              In healthcare several decades ago maternal and child death rates at birth were very high. Rather than fine hospitals and dictate solutions, hospitals were required to publically post their Birth Vitals and Statistics. As parents were empowered to choose where to deliver their children, hospitals responded to fix problems. The medical specialty of OBGYN, Prenatal Care and NICU spawned from the posting of performance.

                              Tranaparency and education are constructive mechanisms to make lasting change.

                              Dictating and stripping parents of their rights to choose harms all of us and violates our freedoms.
                              Ummmm, OK. Let me get this straight because I want to make sure I get your point. You want sexual predators to be investigated. You want victims to have a voice. But you do not want SS to ban sexual predators, even though that is its mandate. You just want them to put an asterisk next to their names, I guess? The sexual predator asterisk? And you don't want USEF to throw sexual predators out. Again with the asterisk thing, I guess? So no private organization can throw sexual predators out? They have to accept sexual predators into their groups and keep them? With an asterisk?

                              I think this is what you want but I'm not clear.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by specifiedcupcake
                                OneGrayPony what about the people who would rather not show with child molesters, but cannot afford the rated circuit? Not everyone has a clear choice. Everyone squawks they're leaving USEF for this or that, but most don't because that's still the path to national/international greatness. It will be interesting to see if people opt to do that though! I would suspect King George might find that local circuit level a bit beneath him, though.
                                Oh I don’t disagree that it’s a problem - but it’s one the local circuits already deal with. Having showed pretty extensively in ours as a kid, we knew who the baddies were, and the trailers with the skinny horses or the trainers who married their junior students after a dubious age of “getting together”. I suspect society will change and eventually it won’t just be the rated organizations that put bans in place - I just don’t think it will be new people into the local circuits “polluting it”. There will be pressure, I hope, from parents to not accept the behaviors.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

                                  Or that we acknowledge predatory nature in men, and place the onus on victims rather than victimizers.

                                  As it goes, instead of teaching girls how not to get raped, let's teach boys (and men) how not to rape.
                                  I agree - we should!!

                                  But that hasn’t been the way our culture has been.

                                  Comment


                                  • My take: Stripping parents of their "rights to choose" sexual predators as trainers/mentors for their children feels like a good move.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by cnm161 View Post
                                      My take: Stripping parents of their "rights to choose" sexual predators as trainers/mentors for their children feels like a good move.


                                      It's like, you think some things go without saying.

                                      But we were all wrong.
                                      Let me apologize in advance.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post

                                        I agree - we should!!

                                        But that hasn’t been the way our culture has been.
                                        And that is absolutely the deeply ingrained mind set we are fighting against right now.

                                        ugh.
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • I have read all 99 pages at this point, and still can't wrap my head around the people trying to find a way to defend GM, but then I remember that the roots of our sport are in cavalry. I think that's where the unquestioning loyalty comes from, first of all. I mean, all winter I ride through the woods dressed like a British officer from the 1700's, and don't come between me and that red coat! That's not to excuse the victim shaming, or rationalizing the process, but maybe that is where it starts.

                                          Also, when your trainer tells you to add more leg down to that big oxer, you HAVE to trust what they say-if you doubt, you fall off, or worse, the horse suffers. When it works, and you and your wonderful horse improve, you can't wait for the next lesson. We have been doing this since Xenophon, and that's powerful history.

                                          Briefly, I rode with a former, very, very successful student of GM's, with her own story of mistreatment-he threw dirt in her face, in a public setting. Why did she put up with it, I wanted to know. She told me she wanted what he could give her so badly, she put up with that, and much more. She didn't tell her parents.

                                          He has been taking advantage of our sport and love of horses for years. Good riddance to him-our sport can do without. If we make the barn a safe place, the horses will take care of the rest.

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