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George Morris on the SS list

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    Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

    A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren't saying.
    WRONG. George knows. The victims/accusers know.

    What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who've known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
    To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.
    A more balanced perspective? Mmmmmkay. #eyerollworthyofanexasperateded14yearold

    Most of the people who have defended him - those "horse pros of stature" that you are starry-eyed about... have heard all the whispers and rumors and tsk-tsks over the years... and some know they are true. What I DO know is that I have heard them - and I am a Nobody. I even sat in the exhibitors bar at Spruce Meadows and heard the "horse pros of stature" at the next table sharing such a story about GM. Many have just refused to (as you have) actually bother looking at the SafeSport procedure and are falling all over themselves to raise an indignant hue and cry and not piss GM off. Many of those voices will go quiet as the initial phase of WTF eases off... and reality sets in.
    Last edited by smoofox; Aug. 14, 2019, 01:31 AM.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
      Can any of you lawyers weigh in on the verbiage of this petition please? Are they essentially asking for Safe Sport to be in civil court as opposed to what it is now? Wasn't the whole point of SS to keep these people from being eligible to compete or coach even if they did were not eligible to be tried for whatever reason?

      https://www.change.org/p/donald-j-tr...se_react=false
      I have no idea what it’s trying to achieve.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

        This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.

        The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.

        It's a sad fact of human nature that when dealing with sports legends, music stars, movie luminaries, or the rich and powerful who can make or break others' rarefied dream careers, the "casting couch" is a lure. There are just as many young people (even their parents!) who think the ends justify the means to reach "the top" and bask in the limelight of that fame and fortune as there are "stars" whose human weakness or sense of entitlement takes advantage of it. If we were to memory-hole the work of every actor, model, musician, sportsman or even writer who exchanged sex for preferment, there honestly wouldn't be much left to watch on TV. We seem to be in a strange, post-religious cultural moment where we elevate ordinary, flawed, weak humans as "gods," and anoint them with perfection, then a few years later take great delight in ripping them down like wolves from the very pedestals we put them on to begin with.

        As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.


        You don’t get it, do you?
        1. He has not been falsely accused. A two year investigation by former FBI and SVU experts let to this ruling.
        2. They apparently have evidence of misconduct as far back as 50 years and as recently as the 1990s.
        3. Even if it were just once case from 50 years ago (which it was not) the time frame does not matter. Nazi war criminals were still being brought to trial as recently as 2016. Should they just be given a pass now because of their age or because WWII was so long ago?

        Why are you defending a guy who by his own admission in his autobiography drugged, poled, and otherwise abused horses, attempted to influence judges, put students and horses in dangerous situations, lied to friends and family members to get what he wanted, and took pleasure in bullying / humiliating others? Even if you don’t believe he is a sexual predator - despite decades of stories - you surely must acknowledge that he has repeatedly violated the USEF’s standards in many ways, and that ineligibility for USEF membership is a reasonable consequence?

        Comment


          Who is Sara Cavanagh (the editor) and why is she so badly misinformed about how SafeSport works?

          Comment


            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
            Can any of you lawyers weigh in on the verbiage of this petition please? Are they essentially asking for Safe Sport to be in civil court as opposed to what it is now? Wasn't the whole point of SS to keep these people from being eligible to compete or coach even if they did were not eligible to be tried for whatever reason?

            https://www.change.org/p/donald-j-tr...se_react=false
            This, as Capall like to say, atrocious petition found its way on my Facebook feed, shared by riders I used to respect.

            It’s a shame.

            ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

            Originally posted by LauraKY
            I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

            Comment


              Taking a break, my next love, the arts, just erupted.
              Placido Domingo and Broadway producers nailed to the wall today.

              Wondering if Epstein's list set off the FBI.....
              *************************
              Go, Baby, Go......
              Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

              Comment


                Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

                Who is Sara Cavanagh (the editor) and why is she so badly misinformed about how SafeSport works?
                I have no idea, but if you scroll down this web page, there is a bio:
                http://thehorseofdelawarevalley.com/about
                The Evil Chem Prof

                Comment


                  I just read through the comments on the change.org petition. Do these people have any clue? Or want to have one? All this due process and constitutional rights jabber.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                    Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM's relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. I honestly don't think the man is STUPID enough to have raped a 13-year old. Just because someone was a live-in student, it does not automatically follow that he was being predated at age 13 by George. My hope is that he was 16 plus. I make no apologies whatsoever for pedophilia.

                    A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren't saying.

                    What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who've known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
                    To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.
                    Loads of people with reputation (Traurig, etc) spoke up in support of Rob Gage.... WHO HAD WRITTEN A CONFESSION TO ONE OF HIS VICTIMS which was used in the investigation against him. Who had at least a handful of women speak publicly about their ages and what occurred.

                    Again I'm not here saying that he's guilty or not because it's not my place to say. But if "statute of limitations" is all you have to hang your hat on, and if intimidating people and "taking down everyone" is your Alamo.... it's not looking pretty.

                    Comment


                      The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

                      As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

                      While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

                      Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

                      Raising awareness is good.

                      Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

                      Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

                      I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

                      We officially live in Orwell's 1984

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Zirgs View Post
                        The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

                        As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

                        While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

                        Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

                        Raising awareness is good.

                        Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

                        Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

                        I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

                        We officially live in Orwell's 1984
                        Regarding your allegedly innocent friend:

                        The claimant is subject to SafeSport disciplinary action for making false claims and withholding evidence. If you are a USEF member, you have a responsibility to report such information if you know it to be true. If you’re not, I suggest you still do so anyway.

                        SafeSport tried to build in checks and balances for situations like you describe, but they are only as good as the members who provide information.

                        Just like many victims have been blamed for “not coming forward,” people with information that would exonerate the allegedly innocent need to do the same.
                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Zirgs View Post
                          The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

                          As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

                          While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

                          Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

                          Raising awareness is good.

                          Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.
                          So... you would send your kids to train with a BNT who has been sanctioned for sexual misconduct, if you were informed and allowed to? Presumably because you feel you cannot get better quality instruction from someone who doesn't abuse their power over children? Or only because you THINK you know what they did, and you believe it was too long ago, or not severe enough to damage someone?

                          Read that again because it sounds like you'd put your kids in harm's way for a bloody blue ribbon.

                          That's just about as bad as "Well he didn't molest MY kid so he must be ok!" It makes my head explode why anyone feels the need to give money to someone who consciously and willingly hurts people.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Zirgs View Post
                            The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

                            As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

                            While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

                            Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

                            Raising awareness is good.

                            Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

                            Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

                            I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

                            We officially live in Orwell's 1984
                            No one is stopping you from hiring child molesters to give your kids riding lessons. They’ll just have to stick to the non affiliated local circuits. Have fun!

                            Comment


                              check Zirgs join date. Can you say 'troll'?

                              ETA: and Zirgs If you 'know' one of the banned trainers is innocent, it's your duty to go to SafeSport and present your case. Good luck.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by pds View Post
                                Makes me sad and sick to note the names of riders and trainers I formally respected that have shown they support child sexual abuse by attacking SafeSport and individuals.

                                I can only hope that one day their hearts and minds open up to the truth. Just hope it is not too late for them all.
                                Totally!!

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                                  USEF has no leeway in this. It is baked into the SafeSport law and code. All the NGBs are obligated.

                                  Whether or not it holds up in court, it will be SafeSport's to litigate. See Page 15.

                                  https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...yperlinked.pdf



                                  (As to who they'd go after, I imagine they'd be starting with letters of reprimand and their actions would probably be contextual. The old friend who goes and rides a horse with a suspended person in the vicinity is probably not going to get the same treatment as someone who hosts an equitation clinic for juniors. They're busy folk, alas. But they might go after an elite figure skating athlete, say, who made known he was training with BNT, and was encouraging others to do so. However, insurance companies may put the kibosh on all of it of their own accord.)

                                  It is meant, explicitly, to end the influence of big name coaches who are found to have created dangerous conditions for athletes. People like Don Peters, who also helped win a lot of (gymnastics) Olympic medals. BNTs that a lot of people would justify training with. The intent is super clear.

                                  You can't hire a doctor for your practice or hospital who loses a license, either.

                                  I enjoy the lawyer talk but I'm a little surprised at this particular line you're taking.
                                  Thanks, you are right. I hadn’t gone and read those rules. Looks like USEF has nothing to say about it, then, but it does make the antitrust case stronger. Interesting!

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Zirgs View Post
                                    The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

                                    As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

                                    While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

                                    Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

                                    Raising awareness is good.

                                    Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

                                    Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

                                    I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

                                    We officially live in Orwell's 1984
                                    you are an unserious person.
                                    Let me apologize in advance.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                                      No one is stopping you from hiring child molesters to give your kids riding lessons. They’ll just have to stick to the non affiliated local circuits. Have fun!


                                      Zirgs How exactly do you KNOW a banned trainer is innocent? Did you have surveillance on them 24/7? If not, then you don't know. You choose to not believe the results of the SS investigation. If you choose to send your child to that trainer and they are abused, how are you going to feel? But hey, I guess SS should just butt out and allow parents to make that choice. Just pray your kid isn't a mess in 20 years and finally discloses to you that the shady trainer violated them.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by mvp View Post

                                        It's pretty easy for me: I don't reward unconscionable behavior. Full stop.

                                        Look, I haven't been in a spot where I desperately needed the help of Paul Valliere or where George Morris was the only horseman who could help me. But I think it's part of being an adult to take the action I can to defend my values. So there is no weighing the pros and cons in my mind. I am clear about that stopped wildly unethical behavior (or doing my part in that) trumps my wanting to get something related to my sport. I'll find another way or I'll go without. But I won't co-sign killing horses for insurance money or molesting children so that I can have fun. Not a hard decision.
                                        To be honest, I dont think I could attend a Robert Dover clinic or any of the big name slime balls sucking up to GM after this.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

                                          This, as Capall like to say, atrocious petition found its way on my Facebook feed, shared by riders I used to respect.

                                          It’s a shame.
                                          Yanno, that's how I know who's who and where the people in my life stand.

                                          I think it's time to let my FB friends know that they can stand with George or they can stand with me, but not both. They can GTFO of my life if they want. I don't see the pay-off to remaining friends with folks who wish to stand in the way of cleaning up the most horrific and dark back bedroom of our sport and industry.

                                          I'm not interested in reputations or statuses of any of the BNTs who have gotten caught with their pants down, so to speak. What does disturb me about the ISWG crowd is the ill-informed conviction that SafeSport isn't worth trusting or defending. While it's fine to critique and improve, I don't see any of these folks 1. offering a better solution; and 2. bothering to educate themselves enough to possibly devise a better process. And that's the height of a form of callousness and elitism that's peculiar to modern Americans. I think these folks have been wrapped in easy privilege for so long (including the scapegoating of victims of sex crimes or taking an uncritical, non-factual view of history), that they can't find a reason to think carefully or empathetically about the problem of reining in the predators amidst our ranks.
                                          The armchair saddler
                                          Politically Pro-Cat

                                          Comment

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