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  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

    This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.

    The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.

    It's a sad fact of human nature that when dealing with sports legends, music stars, movie luminaries, or the rich and powerful who can make or break others' rarefied dream careers, the "casting couch" is a lure. There are just as many young people (even their parents!) who think the ends justify the means to reach "the top" and bask in the limelight of that fame and fortune as there are "stars" whose human weakness or sense of entitlement takes advantage of it. If we were to memory-hole the work of every actor, model, musician, sportsman or even writer who exchanged sex for preferment, there honestly wouldn't be much left to watch on TV. We seem to be in a strange, post-religious cultural moment where we elevate ordinary, flawed, weak humans as "gods," and anoint them with perfection, then a few years later take great delight in ripping them down like wolves from the very pedestals we put them on to begin with.

    As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.


    Your debating technique seems to be to sort of talk around some issues without actually saying anything clearly enough for anyone to hold you accountable for it.

    You make a reasonably accurate statement that at some points in history and some cultures, barely pubescent children of 13 were considered marriageable and full adults. True.

    But the age of consent in the US has not changed from the range 16 to 18 in the last 50 years.

    The age of consent in New Jersey was 16 in the sixties and it is now.

    I assume the article is included to say that huge numbers of sex partners was not unusual for gay men in the pre-AIDS era. Again, true. While crashing boar doesn’t come out and state it explicitly, I think the accusation she is lobbing at us is that we, and SafeSport, are persecuting GM because he is gay and lived the pre-AIDS gay lifestyle in 1968-72.

    This is not a legitimate smear of SafeSport or of us, which is probably why she doesn’t say it outright.

    Nobody cares that he is and was gay. Nobody cares about 10,000 partners.

    What matters is whether some of those partners were minors, and, beyond being minors, he used his position of power and trust to coerce them.
    Last edited by YankeeDuchess; Aug. 14, 2019, 01:49 PM.

    Comment


    • The Believed podcast is really good, and really important, because it talks about how beloved Larry Nassar was. How he was the nice guy who advocated for the athletes. How he was on a first name basis with everyone.

      WELLS: This guy looks like your typical suburban dad. He is silly. He is friendly. He is good at his job. He is a white guy in a polo shirt with his cellphone holstered to his belt.

      SMITH: Videos like this are why I can't stop thinking about this case. As a mom, when I think about my two sweet little girls, I just - I really hope I would be able to spot someone like Larry Nassar. But I don't know.

      WELLS: And that's the thing, right? You are not stupid. You're an extremely good, vigilant mom. And we all think that we have these really good bullshit detectors. But I listened back to tapes of Larry Nassar before he got caught. And my bullshit detector does not go off. We're going to let you hear what I'm talking about, coming up in just a minute.
      WELLS: So after that '96 Olympics with Kerri Strug, Nassar goes from being a trainer with the Olympic team to its top doctor. He also becomes a professor of medicine at Michigan State University. Anybody who is anybody in gymnastics knows who this guy is. So if you could get Larry on your gymnastics podcast, that was a get, man.

      (SOUNDBITE OF PODCST, "GYMCASTIC")

      O'BEIRNE: I'm just going to tell you that I'm totally biased in this interview - completely and totally biased because I just love Larry Nassar. And I don't know when he sleeps, honestly. But he's just - he's great. I'm going to stop going on and on about how awesome he is because...

      WELLS: On the podcast, Jessica says that watching Larry work is like watching an Inspector Gadget. He is always doing a million things at once. But Larry told Jessica he had one very simple motto.

      (SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "GYMCASTIC")

      NASSAR: Gymnast first, gymnast first, gymnast first - nothing, nothing, nothing gets in the way of gymnast first. Gymnast-centered - their health, physical and mental, then comes everyone else. Everything else is secondary.

      WELLS: This attitude made Larry a unicorn because in gymnastics, even the best careers are brutal and short. By the time your kid is 2, coaches are watching like hawks for something that they can mold. By age 6, they know which kids have it and which ones don't. And by the time you're out of college, your body is just done, man. You are Brett Favre doing infomercials. So for those fleeting years in between, no matter how bad you're hurt, you suck it up. But on that podcast, Larry talked about pushing back against screaming coaches and demanding parents.

      (SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "GYMCASTIC")

      NASSAR: You have to protect your athletes. You have to let them know that we care. You have to - not let them know, but let them feel it. Let them understand it. Let them breathe it. It's there. You know, it's not just a pat on the back, you know what I mean? It has to be sincere.

      WELLS: Larry was the guy who saw you, who protected you. This is how he earned your trust.

      (SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "GYMCASTIC")

      NASSAR: And if you screw up once with one of those gymnasts, it'll spread like wildfire. If you do something where you break their train of trust, you're done.

      SMITH: Maybe you noticed we're calling him Larry. That's what most everyone called him, coaches, patients, their parents. It tells you something about how much they trusted him.

      WELLS: And I want you to be able to separate this guy, Larry, in your mind from the Nassar on the news - because that guy, in court, he doesn't have any power anymore. But when it's one-on-one, when it's Larry, this beloved dude, that's where his power came from. It was always just one on one.

      SMITH: Dawn Homer called him Larry.

      DAWN HOMER: Who did I trust to keep his eye on her? Larry. I knew Larry would not let her be hurt.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • Originally posted by IPEsq View Post

        I'll agree with you on this one.


        As for tying that came up, no USEF isn't engaged in tying. I may have to pay an administrative fee and/or not get all of the benefits of membership if I show without being a member, but I can show without being a member. I can also coach, give clinics, and a bunch of other things. There are also non-USEF affiliated shows.
        Thanks, yes I think the aiding and abetting with clinics and possibly teaching is what makes or breaks the antitrust case. HINT TO USEF, DROP IT.

        Comment


        • Nobody cares about 10,000 partners.
          Don't forget the "and counting!" The book was written a couple of years ago. Wonder how many he's up to now.

          Wait - no I don't.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

            Thanks, yes I think the aiding and abetting with teaching is what makes or breaks the antitrust case. HINT TO USEF, DROP IT.
            That's not in USEF's court; it's SafeSport. And their position is that people are given a lifetime ban because they were found to be abusive and dangerous and cannot be trusted with athletes.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • This: "Nobody cares that he is and was gay. Nobody cares about 10,000 partners.

              What matters is whether some of those partners were minors, and, beyond being minors, he used his position of power and trust to coerce them.

              [/QUOTE]

              The "pre-Aids gay culture" defense of sex with a minor is ridiculous. No one would argue that the molestation of children by clergy could be excused by a church culture which allowed and accommodated child abuse. Some of those children also "consented," although consent is highly problematic when the power differential is so vast.

              The situation in HJ with working students is completely unregulated and it needs to be regulated just as any other form of child labor is. Only then will children be safe from a spectrum of exploitation in the industry.

              Comment


              • Kate Vosbury wrote a letter to editor of the horse of Delaware Valley.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Peggy View Post
                  If you wanted an understanding of how a sexual predator works and avoids getting into trouble, I highly recommend the podcast Believed about Larry Nassar.
                  https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510326/believed

                  It was recommended upthread, or maybe on the RG thread, and I’ve listened to four episodes. One of his victims was six when it started and I think that was roughly twenty years ago.

                  But it I don’t think I’ll ever think about PowerPoint quite the same way ever again.
                  Second this. Thank you to whomever first mentioned this upthread. I’m only 4 episodes in as well & it is outstanding. Highly recommend (if you can stomach it- lots of disturbing info).

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                    This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.

                    The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.

                    It's a sad fact of human nature that when dealing with sports legends, music stars, movie luminaries, or the rich and powerful who can make or break others' rarefied dream careers, the "casting couch" is a lure. There are just as many young people (even their parents!) who think the ends justify the means to reach "the top" and bask in the limelight of that fame and fortune as there are "stars" whose human weakness or sense of entitlement takes advantage of it. If we were to memory-hole the work of every actor, model, musician, sportsman or even writer who exchanged sex for preferment, there honestly wouldn't be much left to watch on TV. We seem to be in a strange, post-religious cultural moment where we elevate ordinary, flawed, weak humans as "gods," and anoint them with perfection, then a few years later take great delight in ripping them down like wolves from the very pedestals we put them on to begin with.

                    As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.


                    I. Can’t. Even. 😂😂😂🤣😅🤪

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                      That's not in USEF's court; it's SafeSport. And their position is that people are given a lifetime ban because they were found to be abusive and dangerous and cannot be trusted with athletes.
                      USEF is the one who posted a PSA that holding a clinic is aiding and abetting, so it is possibly with them. It SafeSport is giving them this guidance, same applies.

                      They will be much safer from an antitrust challenge if they lose what they have said about the aiding and abetting aspect of clinics. Given the broad nature of the language used, I would think a trainer arranging GM clinics, not approved by USEF, would be OK but the guidance doesn’t say that. It says clinics in general.

                      In this sense, PV and his ilk have more freedom to teach and clinic than GM. That is a vulnerable spot for the case. Affecting competition is important. Affecting a single competitor, no.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                        i do think that if SadeSport runs afoul of the Sherman Act, this aiding and abetting aspect is what is going to do it. It makes it possible to argue a broader affect on competition, as opposed to only an effect on a single competitor. That is key.
                        If someone brings a case, would the whole thing get thrown out, or just this part?
                        *****
                        You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                          Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM's relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. I honestly don't think the man is STUPID enough to have raped a 13-year old. Just because someone was a live-in student, it does not automatically follow that he was being predated at age 13 by George. My hope is that he was 16 plus. I make no apologies whatsoever for pedophilia.

                          A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren't saying.

                          What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who've known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
                          To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.
                          It is difficult to believe that it takes 18 months to determine whether the age of the reporter was over or under 16 at the time of the incident.
                          When you’re riding a horse, you don’t pick a fight unless you’re pretty sure you’re going to win the argument. For the usual confidentiality reasons, I don’t know what evidence SsgeSport has. However, this early in their life, when they still need to create a track record of legitimacy, they would need to be absolute morons to pick a fight with GM unless they were 99% sure they could withstand an appeal. They are only required to prove their case by a preponderance of the evidence, but I’m guessing that they can clear the preponderance bar like a Grand Prix jumper clearing a cavaletti. I don’t think they’re morons.

                          Re all the well known trainers showing their support for GM publicly: it’s not as public as it could be. ISWG, SafeSport The honest conversations, and SafeSport Overhaul are all closed groups. If you proudly SWG and want to shout it from the rooftops, wouldn’t you make the group public? What is the point of an echo chamber in which a large group of people pre-certified as GM supporters swap posts about what a travesty his ban is? If you truly SWG, wouldn’t you want to attempt to persuade those who don’t SWG, or the undecided, to your side? I think the ISWG group is closed in part because they need to maintain a certain level of willful ignorance in order to support GM and continue to cast SafeSport as the villain, and they don’t want anybody putting a damper on their self-righteous rage by bringing in any nasty facts.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                            This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.
                            Wait, because it was a free wheeling time, it was okay to bang children????



                            As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.
                            I also dodged the child abuse bullet, so no. I keep posting because even after the raft, no Ocean Liner!, of explanation on how Safe Sport works, people like you STILL don't get

                            1. He knew who his accusers were
                            2. He was afforded due process
                            3. You can't bang children. Even 50 years ago.


                            *****
                            You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Midge View Post

                              If someone brings a case, would the whole thing get thrown out, or just this part?
                              A case needs to affect competition to lodge a viable Sherman Act claim. At this point it is premature to make predictions as to whether a party could do so as to pass a motion to dismiss or for summary judgment. Maybe. Maybe not. But if it doesn’t, the whole thing would the thrown out. Keep in mind this is a dynamic area of law and I can’t accurately read the tea leaves. I do think it isn’t a frivolous claim. Beyond that, the facts and procedure of SafeSport and the skill of the attorneys all play a huge part.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
                                Kate Vosbury wrote a letter to editor of the horse of Delaware Valley.
                                Link - http://thehorseofdelawarevalley.com/...-to-the-editor
                                The Evil Chem Prof

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                  USEF is the one who posted a PSA that holding a clinic is aiding and abetting, so it is possibly with them. It SafeSport is giving them this guidance, same applies.
                                  Does anyone have a link to this PSA? I somehow missed it.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post


                                    The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.


                                    With the bill passing extending the Statute of Limitations for sexual abuse, it will be interesting to see if any victims file a civil suit against GM. If abused as a minor, the victim now has until their 55th birthday (or seven years from the time they become aware of the injury, whichever is later) to file a civil suit.

                                    https://www.njtvonline.org/news/vide...-abuse-claims/

                                    And FYI, there is NO statute of limitations for criminal cases of sexual assault in New Jersey

                                    Comment


                                    • And the response by Sara is as unprofessional as the original story. She still does not understand how SafeSport works and continues to state the the accused does not know who reported (wrong), that they are unable to defend themselves (wrong). Some people refuse to believe that GM and the other banned individuals were well aware of the situation long before they are banned for life.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                        USEF is the one who posted a PSA that holding a clinic is aiding and abetting, so it is possibly with them. It SafeSport is giving them this guidance, same applies.

                                        They will be much safer from an antitrust challenge if they lose what they have said about the aiding and abetting aspect of clinics. Given the broad nature of the language used, I would think a trainer arranging GM clinics, not approved by USEF, would be OK but the guidance doesn’t say that. It says clinics in general.

                                        In this sense, PV and his ilk have more freedom to teach and clinic than GM. That is a vulnerable spot for the case. Affecting competition is important. Affecting a single competitor, no.
                                        USEF has no leeway in this. It is baked into the SafeSport law and code. All the NGBs are obligated.

                                        Whether or not it holds up in court, it will be SafeSport's to litigate. See Page 15.

                                        https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...yperlinked.pdf

                                        E. Aiding and Abetting
                                        Aiding and Abetting is any act taken with the purpose of facilitating, promoting, or encouraging the commission of Prohibited Conduct by a Participant. Aiding and Abetting also includes, without limitation, knowingly:

                                        1. Allowing any person who has been identified as suspended or otherwise ineligible by the Center to be in any way associated with or employed by an organization affiliated with or holding itself out as affiliated with an NGB, LAO, the USOC or the Olympic Movements;

                                        2. Allowing any person who has been identified as suspended or otherwise ineligible by the Center to coach or instruct Participants;

                                        3. Allowing any person who has been identified as ineligible by the Center to have ownership interest in a facility, an organization, or its related entities, if that facility/organization/related entity is affiliated with or holds itself out as affiliated with an NGB, LAO, USOC or the Olympic Movements.

                                        4. Providing any coaching-related advice or service to an Athlete who has been identified as suspended or otherwise ineligible by the Center.

                                        5. Allowing any person to violate the terms of their suspension or any other sanctions imposed by the Center.

                                        In addition, a Participant also violates the Code if someone acts on behalf of the Participant to engage in Aiding or Abetting, or if the guardian, family member, or Advisor of a Participant, including Minor Participants, engages in Aiding or Abetting.
                                        (As to who they'd go after, I imagine they'd be starting with letters of reprimand and their actions would probably be contextual. The old friend who goes and rides a horse with a suspended person in the vicinity is probably not going to get the same treatment as someone who hosts an equitation clinic for juniors. They're busy folk, alas. But they might go after an elite figure skating athlete, say, who made known he was training with BNT, and was encouraging others to do so. However, insurance companies may put the kibosh on all of it of their own accord.)

                                        It is meant, explicitly, to end the influence of big name coaches who are found to have created dangerous conditions for athletes. People like Don Peters, who also helped win a lot of (gymnastics) Olympic medals. BNTs that a lot of people would justify training with. The intent is super clear.

                                        You can't hire a doctor for your practice or hospital who loses a license, either.

                                        I enjoy the lawyer talk but I'm a little surprised at this particular line you're taking.

                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                                        • Originally posted by HoolieB View Post

                                          Believe me, I am embarrassed about how I let the celebrity of GM affect my perception.
                                          Yes, but you took a good look at the facts and changed your opinion accordingly. That's what reasonable people *do*.
                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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