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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

    This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.

    The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.

    It's a sad fact of human nature that when dealing with sports legends, music stars, movie luminaries, or the rich and powerful who can make or break others' rarefied dream careers, the "casting couch" is a lure. There are just as many young people (even their parents!) who think the ends justify the means to reach "the top" and bask in the limelight of that fame and fortune as there are "stars" whose human weakness or sense of entitlement takes advantage of it. If we were to memory-hole the work of every actor, model, musician, sportsman or even writer who exchanged sex for preferment, there honestly wouldn't be much left to watch on TV. We seem to be in a strange, post-religious cultural moment where we elevate ordinary, flawed, weak humans as "gods," and anoint them with perfection, then a few years later take great delight in ripping them down like wolves from the very pedestals we put them on to begin with.

    As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.
    I don’t usually bother to reply to post like this, but I will make an exception here. And for the record, I could serve on any jury on the subject. That is my great good fortune.

    Go to any USEF horse show right now. Today, tomorrow, next week. Any show you like. Go to the pony ring. Look on the schedule, and watch the medium pony hunter division show. According to the current USEF rules, any rider in the regular medium pony division must have a maximum show age of 14. Depending on when the birthday falls on the calendar, some of them actually could be 15, and still have a show age of 14. You watch that medium pony division, and tell me that any kid in that class could be considered old enough to be in a relationship with an adult. I don’t care which kid it is, I don’t care what the laws are in that state, I don’t care about any extenuating circumstances.

    You watch the medium pony division, and tell me which of those pony kids is old enough to be in that kind of a relationship with an adult. This year, last year, next year, a hundred years ago, a hundred years from now.

    Which kid on a medium pony?

    Go ahead. I’ll wait.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HoolieB View Post

      Believe me, I am embarrassed about how I let the celebrity of GM affect my perception.
      sorry hoolie, my comment was for the person above you who fired being on a team as being indicative of intelligence or morality. (I know that wasn't intended vhm, but for the peanut gallery it's important to remind everyone)
      Let me apologize in advance.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

        This will not be a popular stand here, but I agree with the above post. What we are talking about is equal to sitting in judgment in 1950 (many of you were around in 1950!) on events from 1899. THAT is how far removed we are now from that distant day and its entire social context. If you would like to read, in depth, about the cultural background in which these alleged event(s) took place, please read this article straight through to the end: https://quillette.com/2019/08/10/the...f-gay-culture/ First-hand historical detail about Studio 54 and more with emphasis on how free-wheeling it all was at that time and why that is equally unimaginable today.

        The law may arbitrarily place the age of consent today at 16, 18, 21, the way things are trending it may soon hit 26! That is actually an historical anomaly; in just about all early cultures, women were considered marriageable post-puberty, and the Bar Mitzvah or equivalent for young men happened at 13 for a reason. Sexually mature older teens are not physically or mentally the same as "children," and I think repeatedly branding GHM a "pedophile" right now is out of line; totally different levels of agency there. Rife speculation and gossip aside, until either SafeSport or someone else comes forward with the specifics of this allegation, WE DON'T KNOW what the issue was with GHM or when it took place. "Misconduct" could be an inappropriate relationship because it involved both age difference and power disparity, but that is neither the definition of rape nor pedophilia. And anyone paying attention knows #metoo is very much a moving target that erupted extremely recently. Many things are now considered "abuse," just like in riding itself, that 50 years ago very few even thought about. We also know people can be wrongly accused; that's why "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of those Commandments that could use dusting off.

        It's a sad fact of human nature that when dealing with sports legends, music stars, movie luminaries, or the rich and powerful who can make or break others' rarefied dream careers, the "casting couch" is a lure. There are just as many young people (even their parents!) who think the ends justify the means to reach "the top" and bask in the limelight of that fame and fortune as there are "stars" whose human weakness or sense of entitlement takes advantage of it. If we were to memory-hole the work of every actor, model, musician, sportsman or even writer who exchanged sex for preferment, there honestly wouldn't be much left to watch on TV. We seem to be in a strange, post-religious cultural moment where we elevate ordinary, flawed, weak humans as "gods," and anoint them with perfection, then a few years later take great delight in ripping them down like wolves from the very pedestals we put them on to begin with.

        As the participants in this thread have thinned out after 90+ pages, it's quite noticeable that a majority of the remaining claim personal childhood abuse. Without in any way diminishing the experience of ANY victim, it must also be noted that such would be automatically excluded from jury selection in a case like this because any objectivity is impossible.


        yeah dude, just cause it's probably you. shocker.
        Let me apologize in advance.

        Comment


        • That petition is hilarious. And clearly not one person has actually read the safe sport rules and procedures. It's really hilariously shameful legit stupid so many people in our sport are. this has gone well beyond ignorance.
          Let me apologize in advance.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Peggy View Post

            Link - https://www.change.org/p/donald-j-tr...l-usef-members

            It was started by Sherry Pace.

            An excerpt from the petition:
            “Below is a bullet point list of the constitutional issues that need to be addressed:

            1. The right to know the charges and your accuser/accusers.
            2. The right to counsel.
            3.The concept of timely,civil proceedure .
            4.The acknowledgement of statute of limitations.
            5.The distinction of felony and misdemeanor of charges.

            In addition the process needs to be more in line with other organizations that have to handle similar situations.”

            I believe that #1 and the sentence after the first list are incorrect. 🤦🏼*♀️
            I thought this was a spectacularly badly written petition. I’m pretty sure the respondent knows the charge and the identity of the accuser and has right to counsel; not clear what 3 means; would be nice to spell procedure correctly; not sure what what is meant by 5.

            I suppose they want SafeSport to have a statute of limitations.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MHM View Post

              I don’t usually bother to reply to post like this, but I will make an exception here. And for the record, I could serve on any jury on the subject. That is my great good fortune.

              Go to any USEF horse show right now. Today, tomorrow, next week. Any show you like. Go to the pony ring. Look on the schedule, and watch the medium pony hunter division show. According to the current USEF rules, any rider in the regular medium pony division must have a maximum show age of 14. Depending on when the birthday falls on the calendar, a few of them actually could be 15, and still have a show age of 14. You watch that medium pony division, and tell me that any kid in that class could be considered old enough to be in a relationship with an adult. I don’t care which kid it is, I don’t care what the laws are in that state, I don’t care about any extenuating circumstances.

              You watch the medium pony division, and tell me which of those pony kids is old enough to be in that kind of a relationship with an adult. This year, last year, next year, a hundred years ago, a hundred years from now.

              Go ahead. I’ll wait.
              Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM's relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. I honestly don't think the man is STUPID enough to have raped a 13-year old. Just because someone was a live-in student, it does not automatically follow that he was being predated at age 13 by George. My hope is that he was 16 plus. I make no apologies whatsoever for pedophilia.

              A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren't saying.

              What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who've known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
              To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post


                I suppose they want SafeSport to have a statute of limitations.
                No they want it to just go away so they can have their rapists and pedos to worship. Awesome. great folks.
                Let me apologize in advance.

                Comment


                • Anyone one here read the allegations against Placido Domingo? They are basically about the Casting Couch.

                  Crashing Boar, whether or not the culture was different 50 years ago, or whether or not society's views on sexual maturity in people were different, or whether or not homosexuality was legal or not legal, using a position of power over someone's future--whether directly or by grooming-- to obtain sexual access is extortion. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by HoolieB View Post
                    Frequent lurker, infrequent poster.

                    I admit that early on I thought due process was completely disregarded by SS and that suspensions and permanent ineligibility were assigned upon accusations being made. I questioned SS and its flagrant abuse of power. When GM was affected, I thought it went too far. So I got myself to the forum here and looked forward to reading like-minded posts. Heh.

                    At first I was confused and put off by the more, er, passionate posts defending SS and the process. I mean, GM was the Grand Poobah of all things hunter/jumper. (For reference, I do fancy-prancing. Badly.) How could H/J folks not be up in arms about this injustice, this ancient and spurious charge of hedonistic behavior? So I kept reading here. And a funny thing happened: I got educated on SS and the process. I was reminded that abuse of power in the form of sexual abuse and the damage inflicted on victims has no expiration date. No longer can I put my head in the sand and think SS sanctions are a result of so-called witch hunts. In short, I am deeply embarrassed at my first reaction to the GM sanctions.

                    Thank you to everyone here who took the time to present facts. It made a difference.
                    Respect

                    One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                    William Shakespeare

                    Comment


                    • Don’t flame me for this because I am just playing the devil’s advocate here....

                      I’m talking all professions, the coaches of any sport, the Harvey Weinstein’s, the professors, the CEO’s, the Bill Cosby’s, the priests, etal., if it isn’t for this, then what is in it for them?

                      I know they are not all pedophiles, but I would bet my bottom dollar that they are all narcissists, and what good is power if it doesn’t reward you with the sexual experience you want?

                      Comment


                      • I am still reading this thread even though I was never abused. I am reading it because I keep looking for the right words to help people I previously respected understand safesport and the process being undertaken. It seems though, that HoolieB is in the minority and most seem entrenched in believing whatever they want to believe about Safesport's processes, and are unwilling/unable to be swayed by facts. Although I would rather educate, I have instead decided to distance myself from such people.

                        I am awaiting Jay Duke's interview with Safesport though. He seems to be trying to undermine the Safesport process by sharing other people's posts without actually stepping up and voicing his own opinion. I thought he did the interview yesterday?

                        I am very curious what will happen when a similar process is in place in Canada for 2020. I image they are taking note of the current state of affairs.
                        Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                        Comment


                        • @ Crashing Boar Are you actually claiming that your post provided "a more balanced perspective"??? Srsly???

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                            Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM's relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. .
                            You seem to refuse to understand the facts of the situation. I don't understand how you can willfully disregard the things you have been told repeatedly and keep holding onto that same old bunk that "no one knows what really happened" because it already has come out in the wash.

                            SS conducted an 18 month-2 year investigation. They talked to multiple victims, some whose interactions with GM were much more recent than the '70s. They talked to GM. They talked to the witnesses that GM identified and wanted them to talk to. They spent months collecting evidence. Trained investigators, such as former FBI agents with experience in sex crimes, ran the investigation.

                            The final sanction, a lifetime ban, was handed down only after this exhaustive investigation was completed. The ban is not the beginning step of the investigation, it's the final step.

                            Sure, GM can appeal this via the arbitration process, but, contrary to what you and others seem bent on believing, the full investigation has already been completed. We already know that more than one of GM's "relationships" were not with individuals "of the age of consent, who consented." We know this because, after an 18 month-2 year investigation, SS concluded that GM had committed sexual misconduct involving a minor.

                            The capacity of humans for self-delusion is always amazing to me.

                            "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                            that's even remotely true."

                            Homer Simpson

                            Comment


                            • Catherine Haddad posted a link to this article. It is well written and thoughtful.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                I do think that if SadeSport runs afoul of the Sherman Act, this aiding and abetting aspect is what is going to do it.
                                I'll agree with you on this one.


                                As for tying that came up, no USEF isn't engaged in tying. I may have to pay an administrative fee and/or not get all of the benefits of membership if I show without being a member, but I can show without being a member. I can also coach, give clinics, and a bunch of other things. There are also non-USEF affiliated shows.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by h0rsel0ver View Post
                                  Catherine Haddad posted a link to this article. It is well written and thoughtful.
                                  Glad that she did! (it's also been posted here several times, but definitely worth reposting and noting who hasn't lost their damn mind)
                                  Let me apologize in advance.

                                  Comment


                                  • On the subject of the Canadians' reaction, I happened to see this article by Nancy Jaffer in Horse Canada. I have no idea how influential a site this is, but I know she is a well-known writer. If the comments below are representative, the remarks seem painfully familiar. https://horse-canada.com/due-south/s...safesport-ban/

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                                      On the subject of the Canadians' reaction, I happened to see this article by Nancy Jaffer in Horse Canada. I have no idea how influential a site this is, but I know she is a well-known writer. If the comments below are representative, the remarks seem painfully familiar. https://horse-canada.com/due-south/s...safesport-ban/
                                      dude, now we have to fight the Canadians too?! ugh.
                                      Let me apologize in advance.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by NoSuchPerson View Post

                                        You seem to refuse to understand the facts of the situation. I don't understand how you can willfully disregard the things you have been told repeatedly and keep holding onto that same old bunk that "no one knows what really happened" because it already has come out in the wash.

                                        SS conducted an 18 month-2 year investigation. They talked to multiple victims, some whose interactions with GM were much more recent than the '70s. They talked to GM. They talked to the witnesses that GM identified and wanted them to talk to. They spent months collecting evidence. Trained investigators, such as former FBI agents with experience in sex crimes, ran the investigation.

                                        The final sanction, a lifetime ban, was handed down only after this exhaustive investigation was completed. The ban is not the beginning step of the investigation, it's the final step.

                                        Sure, GM can appeal this via the arbitration process, but, contrary to what you and others seem bent on believing, the full investigation has already been completed. We already know that more than one of GM's "relationships" were not with individuals "of the age of consent, who consented." We know this because, after an 18 month-2 year investigation, SS concluded that GM had committed sexual misconduct involving a minor.

                                        The capacity of humans for self-delusion is always amazing to me.
                                        Spoken with authority.

                                        Crashing Boar Could you please refute this post, in point form? Rather than repeating your same position every few pages?

                                        Despite your unnecessary dig regarding posters here who have experienced abuse, and whose stories are only a tiny fraction of the informed and educated contributions on this thread by the way, I'm interested in your rebuttal of NoSuchPerson's argument.
                                        One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                        William Shakespeare

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                                          Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM's relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. I honestly don't think the man is STUPID enough to have raped a 13-year old. Just because someone was a live-in student, it does not automatically follow that he was being predated at age 13 by George. My hope is that he was 16 plus. I make no apologies whatsoever for pedophilia.
                                          GM says that it's about events from 1968-1972. I don't think SafeSport agrees but for the moment let's go with that.
                                          Jonathan Soresi was 13 years old in 1968. So either the first problematic events happened when Soresi was 13 or there is more than one active claimant. You can't really escape that conclusion.

                                          A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren't saying.
                                          So true. But people like you insisting that the evidence can't possibly exist or even if it does, how can it matter 50 years later, are causing people like me to dig up, recall, and repeat these inconvenient facts that explain in detail that it does matter, that it's unlikely that the SafeSport investigators walked into this buzzsaw on a whim and without solid evidence, and it's making more people speak out about the things they know and put the pieces together.

                                          What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who've known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
                                          To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.
                                          I am sad for them, and for us. They did it for Rob Gage too, only to learn that another prominent person was among his survivors, that she was quite young, and had a compelling story, as well as that there were quite a few other girls involved. I unfortunately and quite sadly believe that the same will happen here. I don't think the investigators would have turned in this report if they weren't extremely certain of their facts.
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                          Comment

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