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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
    So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
    Did you miss the part where SafeSport conducted an 18 month investigation?

    Nothing about the data those guys used reduces to something like a cultural moment of Political Correctness. And also, find me a laudable cultural moment in which pedophilia is worth returning to.

    Did you miss the basic meaning of "me too" as indicating that lots and lots (and still unfathomly more) people have actually been the victims of some form of sexual abuse? No one is re-writing history in order to make this happen.

    I'll tolerate ignorant or stupid but not when those things are used in the service of meanness and exploitation.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
      So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
      Your deliberate learned helplessness is EXACTLY why people (perhaps your own daughter) would not report until they were well 'past' the trauma. The average age of revelation is 52 years, btw.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gainer View Post

        Jay was very much aware of Navarro's "status" for over a decade, long before SafeSport. The SafeSport ruling just finally forced him to do something about it.
        Please share how you know this?

        This entire thread has focused on SS's process which includes an investigation before labeling guilt. You're merely gossiping on a public forum without having shared any evidence supporting your claims.

        We have to be careful not to get so caught up in SS rulings that we start applying guilt universally without proof. This goes for everyone now and into the future.
        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

        Comment


        • And here is another gymnastics story, from the first USA Gymnastics world champion, relating events in 1979 when she was defending her title:

          https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/01/...tory-of-abuse/

          Before Mary Lou and Gabby and Simone there was Marcia, America’s first golden girl, the New England 15-year-old who shocked the gymnastics world in 1978 by upsetting Nadia Comaneci, the personification of perfection, among others for the U.S.’ first woman’s global title.

          “I went into their world and broke it down,” Frederick said.
          Frederick, in an exclusive interview with the Southern California News Group, alleged that Carlson had her engage in sex acts for two years starting in 1979, just weeks after she turned 16 and only months after she won the uneven bars gold medal at the 1978 Worlds. Carlson continued to have sexual relations with her while she competed for Team USA in major international competitions and trained for the 1980 Olympic Games, Frederick said, until she was 18.

          “Two years,” she said. “For me it seemed like 10 years.”
          She didn't report to USA Gymnastics until 2015 when she was in her 50s, but several people around her were told ... and/or had irrefutable evidence... when she was 18.

          Frederick began leaving a trail of evidence hoping someone would discover Carlson’s sexual involvement with her.

          “I left so many clues as a little girl. Underwear in strange places,” she said. “I left so many clues for people and no one (found them).”

          At one point a housekeeper working for Grossfeld in the farmhouse confronted Carlson about a condom she found in a strange place.

          “And he made up some stupid story and I’m right there behind that wall and I’m going, ‘It’s finally going to happen, finally’ and nothing,” Frederick said. “I was so upset.”
          Like seriously go read the whole thing; so many parallels to equestrian sport.
          Last edited by poltroon; Aug. 13, 2019, 03:39 PM. Reason: Added sad quote, clarified reporting activity
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

            There are multiple cases in gymnastics ranging from very local coaches to elite national coaches. Don Peters was the national coach for the 1984 team and was banned for sexual abuse in 2011 (allegations include events during the 1980s). Marvin Sharp is another national team coach who was banned, again quite late compared to the timing of the first complaints. USA Gymnastics is in trouble not because of the actions of Nassar alone but from many many ignored reports about several individuals, as well as allegations that their officials tampered with evidence.
            Ick. Gross.

            Thanks.

            Was Karolyi included on that sex offenders list? Or did he just work them to a crazy degree on one meal a week?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
              So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
              Your ignorance is staggering. Have you been in a coma for oh, say 40 years?
              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                Gymnastics tangent.

                Are you saying the gymnastics people before Nassar had sexual misconduct issues with the athletes? If so, I had not heard about that.
                I vaguely recall some controversy over a husband-wife team who ran a training center. It was some years back, and it made a sort of blip, then faded from view.
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                  Gymnastics tangent.

                  Are you saying the gymnastics people before Nassar had sexual misconduct issues with the athletes? If so, I had not heard about that.
                  I believe that the Indianapolis Star investigation that broke the whole thing open was spurred by Nassar's victims responding to a 2016 Star article about cover up of sexual abuse by coaches at USA Gymnastics. Nassar victims then responded to the tip line included with that article, saying they had information about people besides coaches. So yes, there were issues before Nassar.

                  EDIT - found the article
                  https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ches/85829732/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hut-ho78
                    Castration isn’t the answer. It’s a control mechanism and the filling of a void, needing adoration. Geldings still mount mares.
                    It is a scientifically proven method to prevent re-offence. Many studies on it. The biggest issue is the ethical side which, I say off with their balls.

                    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9490924

                    http://journals.euser.org/files/arti...r_1/Vedije.pdf
                    Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by fargaloo View Post
                      Sexual predators took pains then (as they do now) to coerce and shame their victims into silence.
                      They most often DON'T start with coercion and shame. That doesn't come until much later. These pedophiles start grooming their victims by making them feel special. It is a fact that many (perhaps even most?) survivors of long term sexual abuse had families that were dysfunctional to varying degrees. That dysfunction opened the child up to responding to being made to feel special in a very particular way. The pedophile can smell the "right" conditions a mile away.

                      That is part of the grooming process. Pedophiles always have feelers out, probing and testing, evaluating. When a child's circumstances tick the boxes, the process becomes more targeted to that particular child. Is the family sufficiently distracted with divorce, illness, substance abuse, whatever? Is the child open to being singled out from their peers? Does the child fit the physical profile the pedophile wants?

                      Believe me, if a pedophile's MO was to drag a child into a dark room and molest them the first time they met? The outcomes would be different. The vast majority don't operate that way. They pick their victims carefully. They carefully construct and guide the situation until eventually they are able to frame the sexual contact as an extension of how important that child is, how loved and protected they are by the abuser.

                      The coercion and shaming doesn't start until the abuser starts to feel control of the situation slipping a little. And most often the "go to" method is shaming the victim. Nobody will believe you. You wanted me to touch you. You will get in trouble. Everyone will know you're a slut, know that you're a fag. You won't be special anymore. Pick your poison. And then they move on. The child has aged out of the pedophile's desired demographic. They get caught just enough for people to know that something "happened", but nobody wants to know what and they just want to bury it and walk away. Whatever. Things shift and another child is targeted and the grooming starts all over again.

                      Keep in mind that the pedophile has hidden in plain sight. Larry Nassar, "I am doing a medical procedure. Only I can fix your child". George Morris, "Your child has talent and I can make it happen for them". My step-father, "God has called me to help this broken family and the daughter needs extra support and caring".

                      These people, for the most part, aren't hiding their victims in the basement, behind a secret door. They marry our drug addled mothers. They dangle health and continued competition in front of children and parents. They insinuate that with extra "access" and training the Olympics is within reach.

                      These monsters are right here, living in plain sight. They aren't driving up in an unfamiliar car and asking us if we want to help them find their lost puppy. They are the team doctor. They are the t-ball coach. They teach Sunday school. They are a best friend's parent. They are a legend in the sport we love. They eat dinner at our own kitchen table and wait until everyone is asleep. They are a fixture in our lives. They don't have to lure us. They are already in our lives.

                      They minimize. They minimize. Every. Single. Day. They say their medical treatment is misunderstood. They say they were only trying to build on a talented rider. They say they were only checking to make sure a child was covered on a cold night.

                      They groom us. They twist the world to make it look a certain way. Up is down and down is up. And they scare the shit out of us for the rest of our lives.

                      And even though we are scared, and ashamed, we step forward and speak our truth. Some of us can say it and never waver again from those words being heard out loud. Some of us need to speak it and then take it back because the fear in our own minds is so overwhelming it might be another thirty years before we can speak the truth again. Some of us never say anything. Some of us use drugs and drink. Some of us become so anxiety ridden that we push ourselves to never, ever make a mistake about anything. Some of us turn around and abuse others. None of that changes the fact that we were hurt in an irreparable way when we were young and vulnerable.

                      "F" George Morris. At this point the allegations have been investigated. He doesn't deserve to automatically be given the benefit of even more doubt. I am going to stand with the people who were strong enough to insist that they be heard. At last. Those are my people. They are my tribe.
                      Sheilah

                      Comment


                      • @ Tiramit I can't speak as to Jay's knowledge, but Frank's conviction for sexual misconduct with a minor in NY (third degree sodomy, if I recall correctly) was a matter of public record before he moved down here. He was on the NY sex offender list. He was initially on the VA list also (that's how I became aware of it), but petitioned to have himself removed unsuccessfully once and then was successful in having his name removed from the VA list in 2015, I think. I think many people were aware of his conviction. It seemed to be pretty common knowledge back then.

                        I thought the whole thing was pretty skeevy at the time, and also was skeptical of his list of accomplishments, but no way was I boarding or taking lessons there anyhow for many reasons, so other than giving my opinion to anyone who asked me, I didn't pay too much attention to whatever went on at the farm.

                        Comment


                        • dannyboy, thank you. I specifically referenced Jay because you and Gainer seem to have some inside knowledge about the situation. At least you both are very confident in your posts.
                          "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MHM View Post

                            Ick. Gross.

                            Thanks.

                            Was Karolyi included on that sex offenders list? Or did he just work them to a crazy degree on one meal a week?
                            Karolyis are not (yet) on any list, but they have closed their residential training center.
                            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hut-ho78

                              I thought it just destroyed DNA evidence until DNA testing improved so much. I thought chemical castration through drugs was not effective. Thanks for the links.
                              Perhaps if the pedophile is allowed to administer the drugs himself, and stops?
                              It's a small world -- unless you gotta walk home.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
                                They most often DON'T start with coercion and shame. That doesn't come until much later. These pedophiles start grooming their victims by making them feel special. It is a fact that many (perhaps even most?) survivors of long term sexual abuse had families that were dysfunctional to varying degrees. That dysfunction opened the child up to responding to being made to feel special in a very particular way. The pedophile can smell the "right" conditions a mile away.

                                That is part of the grooming process. Pedophiles always have feelers out, probing and testing, evaluating. When a child's circumstances tick the boxes, the process becomes more targeted to that particular child. Is the family sufficiently distracted with divorce, illness, substance abuse, whatever? Is the child open to being singled out from their peers? Does the child fit the physical profile the pedophile wants?

                                Believe me, if a pedophile's MO was to drag a child into a dark room and molest them the first time they met? The outcomes would be different. The vast majority don't operate that way. They pick their victims carefully. They carefully construct and guide the situation until eventually they are able to frame the sexual contact as an extension of how important that child is, how loved and protected they are by the abuser.

                                The coercion and shaming doesn't start until the abuser starts to feel control of the situation slipping a little. And most often the "go to" method is shaming the victim. Nobody will believe you. You wanted me to touch you. You will get in trouble. Everyone will know you're a slut, know that you're a fag. You won't be special anymore. Pick your poison. And then they move on. The child has aged out of the pedophile's desired demographic. They get caught just enough for people to know that something "happened", but nobody wants to know what and they just want to bury it and walk away. Whatever. Things shift and another child is targeted and the grooming starts all over again.

                                Keep in mind that the pedophile has hidden in plain sight. Larry Nassar, "I am doing a medical procedure. Only I can fix your child". George Morris, "Your child has talent and I can make it happen for them". My step-father, "God has called me to help this broken family and the daughter needs extra support and caring".

                                These people, for the most part, aren't hiding their victims in the basement, behind a secret door. They marry our drug addled mothers. They dangle health and continued competition in front of children and parents. They insinuate that with extra "access" and training the Olympics is within reach.

                                These monsters are right here, living in plain sight. They aren't driving up in an unfamiliar car and asking us if we want to help them find their lost puppy. They are the team doctor. They are the t-ball coach. They teach Sunday school. They are a best friend's parent. They are a legend in the sport we love. They eat dinner at our own kitchen table and wait until everyone is asleep. They are a fixture in our lives. They don't have to lure us. They are already in our lives.

                                They minimize. They minimize. Every. Single. Day. They say their medical treatment is misunderstood. They say they were only trying to build on a talented rider. They say they were only checking to make sure a child was covered on a cold night.

                                They groom us. They twist the world to make it look a certain way. Up is down and down is up. And they scare the shit out of us for the rest of our lives.

                                And even though we are scared, and ashamed, we step forward and speak our truth. Some of us can say it and never waver again from those words being heard out loud. Some of us need to speak it and then take it back because the fear in our own minds is so overwhelming it might be another thirty years before we can speak the truth again. Some of us never say anything. Some of us use drugs and drink. Some of us become so anxiety ridden that we push ourselves to never, ever make a mistake about anything. Some of us turn around and abuse others. None of that changes the fact that we were hurt in an irreparable way when we were young and vulnerable.

                                "F" George Morris. At this point the allegations have been investigated. He doesn't deserve to automatically be given the benefit of even more doubt. I am going to stand with the people who were strong enough to insist that they be heard. At last. Those are my people. They are my tribe.
                                Sheilah
                                Thank you for sharing, and hugs. This was powerful.
                                http://turtlemountainfarm.com/

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
                                  "F" George Morris. At this point the allegations have been investigated. He doesn't deserve to automatically be given the benefit of even more doubt. I am going to stand with the people who were strong enough to insist that they be heard. At last. Those are my people. They are my tribe.
                                  Sheilah
                                  This. I've always thought he was such an arrogant SOB. So above it all. He knows what he did and never in a million years did he ever think he'd have to pay the piper. Welcome to hell GM. Victims no more - survivors united who will be heard.

                                  Comment


                                  • Also some more info on pedophiles, not to get too sidetracked, but child protection is something I am very passionate about, and with my love of True Crime they go together well, I have read a lot about this stuff. Pedophiles number 2 goal is to not get caught. Number 1 is to get close enough to abuse the child. Pedophiles have their own symbols, there is one for child lover, one for girl lover, and one for boy lover. They display these logos in places so they can be identified by other child predators and can stick together. There are actually websites and forums on the dark web dedicated to child abuse, and helping each other. Topics include how to get close to the family, how to identify potential victims and what types of victims are the best to go after. How to not get caught, how to convince children to be afraid or trust you, how to get the powerful people in your town on your side, etc etc etc. It's really quite sick, but that is their MO.

                                    Hiding in plain sight. Always be aware, a predator can be your closest friend.
                                    Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by jhg140 View Post

                                      I believe that the Indianapolis Star investigation that broke the whole thing open was spurred by Nassar's victims responding to a 2016 Star article about cover up of sexual abuse by coaches at USA Gymnastics. Nassar victims then responded to the tip line included with that article, saying they had information about people besides coaches. So yes, there were issues before Nassar.

                                      EDIT - found the article
                                      https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ches/85829732/
                                      Ick. Gross. Again.

                                      Thanks.

                                      It’s really remarkable how many of those excuses in that article are being repeated almost word for word right now, here and elsewhere.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                                        @ clerkofcourts I'm re-reading George's book right now (I bought and read it when it first came out). The first time through, I was unaware of the timing, that there was an investigation in the works even then.

                                        What strikes me this time around about it is that it's intended as a warning. He recites name after name of rich and powerful clients, all of whom loved George and were "good friends". I think it's "a touch me if you dare, but look at who's behind me" kind of statement.
                                        My thoughts EXACTLY. I was having his discussion with someone and it was my impression (from memory , I’d started to read the book when it came out it and even had the Geezer sign it and couldn’t get through it) that he was like “hey all! I got your number, try me!” Which falls right in line with that Facebook post where he was quoted as saying he would take everyone down with him. Another person mentioned it maybe being a pre-emptive, “hey look I aired my dirty laundry already so I must be innocent.” I think it’s probably a bit of both.
                                        I keep thinking I should go back and crack the book open again but just can’t seem to force myself to.

                                        Especiallly is you consider that Soresi first came forward in 2012 and backed off. Otherwise does GM seem like the type that would need to “write” a tell all?
                                        My head also keeps going back to just how poorly wrttien it is. So! Many! Exclamation marks! Knowing what a perfectionist he is you’d think it would have been better edited, even if his own education level is lacking.

                                        Comment


                                        • Supportive GM post on the FB page from Kathy Kusner (via someone else’s profile). I’ve always loved Kathy, so seeing it makes me a bit sad.
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          "I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream." --Vincent Van Gogh

                                          Comment

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