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George Morris on the SS list

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    Originally posted by BLBGP View Post
    3. Consider kindness when talking about this to friends and family. Chances are someone you know is struggling with something that happened to them years ago. Don't put their tragedy in air quotes.
    That is a fantastic way to think of this whole discussion. Thank you.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
      Should have seen their faces in court when he pled "guilty".

      and 6 months after he was released from prison, one of these women messaged me apologizing saying he threatened her and she was terrified. I tried to warn her...
      Ugh. Some of these people should be forced to wear a scarlet letter, but it should probably be branded on their foreheads so it is visible to all at a glance.

      I realize that is not within the current legal system, but it would save a lot of other people so much time and heartache down the road.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

        I too am disgusted, but by you. Shame on you and your ignorant, old, outdated ways. You should have read every comment, because you look like a damn fool believing everything you read on Facebook and taking ZERO time to read and learn about the process of Safe Sport, and the entire situation with GM.

        You look like an absolute *** ATM.

        I honestly don't know what these people expect, coming on here to spout whatever they have been reading on Facebook. Do they think everyone is going to say, "Oh, you know, we have heard these false reasonings so many times but because you just came on here and said it, now we will change our minds and agree with you"?

        I also don't get the "But it was 50 years ago!" argument. If someone was murdered 50 years ago and the person that did it was just discovered today, there would be no "but it was 50 years ago and you are destroying their livelihood and reputation". And this can ruin lives just as thoroughly as murder.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

          There is a concept called “tying” whereby you are forced to buy one product in order to use another product. I discussed this in class eons ago in relation to operating systems and hardware. My guess is there has been a volume of litigation since then on the topic. But maybe there is some sort of “tying” argument to be made concerning USEF membership or bans and participating in competition. Someone much more knowledgeable than me like fordtractor or IPesq can explain why that wouldn’t be relevant st all though.
          From a layman's curiosity standpoint, could something like tying be the argument that Safe Sport could not mandate the part of the rule that says other members also cannot do business with the banned person? This is the only part that makes me think, 'Can they really do that?'
          *****
          You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

          Comment


            Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
            Could be. Jay was certainly well aware - he was probably there several days a week.

            ETA: and I'm not saying there was anything wrong about that, until the results of the appeal were final.
            Jay was very much aware of Navarro's "status" for over a decade, long before SafeSport. The SafeSport ruling just finally forced him to do something about it.

            Comment


              Originally posted by rah
              Can someone in Tryon confirm GM’s name has been removed from the stadium?
              Pretty sure their most resent press release stated they're keeping it until the appeal is finished.

              Comment


                @ Gainer Completely agree.

                Comment


                  What I want to know is, is any H/J based publication going to have the b@lls to publish an article or opinion piece on this major industry event? I keep looking at the usual sites and there is a deafening silence from all media angles. It's disappointing.

                  Comment


                    Even this reasoned article presents the GM allegations as having happened between 1968-1972. Those dates are presented as fact, and the basis for the SafeSport ruling.

                    Those dates are how GM and the PR firm he hired frame the allegations. SafeSport isn't talking about time frames or how many people have made complaints. Whatever GM is paying that PR firm isn't enough. They have so successfully spun the entire probe that their version of timeline and number of complainants is accepted and passed on as the central fact to the case.
                    Sheilah

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by rah

                      I was assured yesterday it has been removed, just trying to confirm.
                      If they did, they haven't updated it on their website, because it still says George Morris Arena on the orders of go page -- https://tryon.coth.com/classsignup/List

                      Comment


                        Most who are waving around a due process argument have been asking for the same procedures and evidence standards and standards of proof as in a criminal case. That is not applicable here, and I think SS follows what is pretty normal for civil cases and administrative governing bodies.

                        Additionally, the private (and public) universities have not had their procedures made into law, whereas the SS code has already gone through the legislature and thus would not be low hanging fruit for a constitutional challenge. Most likely it would have to make it all the way to SCOTUS and then they would have to find a flaw for anything to change IMO (and I don’t see that happening realistically—likely not a case they want to touch). Perhaps I’m just cynical. Not saying the process is perfect but there is a lot of wiggle room between not perfect and convincing a court that a law (as this process is codified) is unconstitutional for lack of due process.

                        As I’ve mentioned before, as far as the retroactive reach of the law, I think the existing SCOTUS precedent on that defeats that challenge, because again this is not a criminal proceeding.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post

                          fordtraktor mentioned in an earlier post that if someone was going to fight Safe Sport or something like it based on an argument related to the Sherman Act, or Interstate Commerce Clause... economic expert testimony would be required.

                          I am simply a house wife and happy amateur and mom these days... but once upon a time so studied this stuff in depth. I don’t have the credentials of the sort of expert economists who would argue for or against a particular application of that law to this case. Just to be clear.

                          What I can say generally is that people who don’t study such things in depth have s tendency to believe all monopolies in industry are “bad” and the free market and competition are the solution to everything. This is simply not the way the real world works. Some industries have a tendency to drift into a monopoly structure for many reasons. Sometimes that’s a positive thing... if well regulated... it can be fine for society. This has been argued about and litigated to death by people far more knowledgeable than me. Needless to say... just because USEF is a monopoly in some respects (I actually think monopolistic competition might be a better descriptor of the horse industry)... it doesn’t necessarily mean anyone can make an argument that the monopoly should be broken up. It actually might make it easier to make an argument that the monopoly should be heavily regulated for the public good.

                          There is a concept called “tying” whereby you are forced to buy one product in order to use another product. I discussed this in class eons ago in relation to operating systems and hardware. My guess is there has been a volume of litigation since then on the topic. But maybe there is some sort of “tying” argument to be made concerning USEF membership or bans and participating in competition. Someone much more knowledgeable than me like fordtractor or IPesq can explain why that wouldn’t be relevant st all though.

                          Sorey for continued tangents... but I love nitnoid economic stuff. Sometimes I fantasize about going back to school just to study it for fun with feee time. Then I decide I shouldn’t bother, and should ride more. And with that said... I’m off to do just that.
                          I love that people are really thinking it through answers coming up with some cool ideas. The concept with tying is that a firm with monopoly or at least a high degree of market power conditions the purchase of the item it monopolizes on the customer also purchasing a second item or service (the tied product), over which it does not have the same degree of market power. This, in effect, enables the monopolist to use its monopoly power to enlarge its market share in the tied product market.

                          it is an interesting concept, but I am not aware of any cases that act in the negative (a ban being unlawfully extended to ban more things, instead of a purchase. I have a migraine today, though, so am not thinking the clearest and am maybe missing how to make this work.

                          i do think that if SadeSport runs afoul of the Sherman Act, this aiding and abetting aspect is what is going to do it. It makes it possible to argue a broader affect on competition, as opposed to only an effect on a single competitor. That is key.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
                            Even this reasoned article presents the GM allegations as having happened between 1968-1972. Those dates are presented as fact, and the basis for the SafeSport ruling.

                            Those dates are how GM and the PR firm he hired frame the allegations. SafeSport isn't talking about time frames or how many people have made complaints. Whatever GM is paying that PR firm isn't enough. They have so successfully spun the entire probe that their version of timeline and number of complainants is accepted and passed on as the central fact to the case.
                            Sheilah
                            I don't deny that the linked post is a worthwhile read, but it is a blog post. It is not a peer reviewed article in a scientific journal or a news article that would be expected to conform to prevailing journalistic standards for presentation of factual information.

                            Not picking on you Sheilah or the point you are trying to make, but folks need to know what they are reading and how to differentiate. Whooeee.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by MHM View Post
                              Gymnastics tangent.

                              Are you saying the gymnastics people before Nassar had sexual misconduct issues with the athletes? If so, I had not heard about that.
                              There are multiple cases in gymnastics ranging from very local coaches to elite national coaches. Don Peters was the national coach for the 1984 team and was banned for sexual abuse in 2011 (allegations include events during the 1980s). Marvin Sharp is another national team coach who was banned, again quite late compared to the timing of the first complaints. USA Gymnastics is in trouble not because of the actions of Nassar alone but from many many ignored reports about several individuals, as well as allegations that their officials tampered with evidence.
                              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
                                So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
                                Did you miss the part where SafeSport conducted an 18 month investigation?

                                Nothing about the data those guys used reduces to something like a cultural moment of Political Correctness. And also, find me a laudable cultural moment in which pedophilia is worth returning to.

                                Did you miss the basic meaning of "me too" as indicating that lots and lots (and still unfathomly more) people have actually been the victims of some form of sexual abuse? No one is re-writing history in order to make this happen.

                                I'll tolerate ignorant or stupid but not when those things are used in the service of meanness and exploitation.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
                                  So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
                                  Your deliberate learned helplessness is EXACTLY why people (perhaps your own daughter) would not report until they were well 'past' the trauma. The average age of revelation is 52 years, btw.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Gainer View Post

                                    Jay was very much aware of Navarro's "status" for over a decade, long before SafeSport. The SafeSport ruling just finally forced him to do something about it.
                                    Please share how you know this?

                                    This entire thread has focused on SS's process which includes an investigation before labeling guilt. You're merely gossiping on a public forum without having shared any evidence supporting your claims.

                                    We have to be careful not to get so caught up in SS rulings that we start applying guilt universally without proof. This goes for everyone now and into the future.
                                    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                    Comment


                                      And here is another gymnastics story, from the first USA Gymnastics world champion, relating events in 1979 when she was defending her title:

                                      https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/01/...tory-of-abuse/

                                      Before Mary Lou and Gabby and Simone there was Marcia, America’s first golden girl, the New England 15-year-old who shocked the gymnastics world in 1978 by upsetting Nadia Comaneci, the personification of perfection, among others for the U.S.’ first woman’s global title.

                                      “I went into their world and broke it down,” Frederick said.
                                      Frederick, in an exclusive interview with the Southern California News Group, alleged that Carlson had her engage in sex acts for two years starting in 1979, just weeks after she turned 16 and only months after she won the uneven bars gold medal at the 1978 Worlds. Carlson continued to have sexual relations with her while she competed for Team USA in major international competitions and trained for the 1980 Olympic Games, Frederick said, until she was 18.

                                      “Two years,” she said. “For me it seemed like 10 years.”
                                      She didn't report to USA Gymnastics until 2015 when she was in her 50s, but several people around her were told ... and/or had irrefutable evidence... when she was 18.

                                      Frederick began leaving a trail of evidence hoping someone would discover Carlson’s sexual involvement with her.

                                      “I left so many clues as a little girl. Underwear in strange places,” she said. “I left so many clues for people and no one (found them).”

                                      At one point a housekeeper working for Grossfeld in the farmhouse confronted Carlson about a condom she found in a strange place.

                                      “And he made up some stupid story and I’m right there behind that wall and I’m going, ‘It’s finally going to happen, finally’ and nothing,” Frederick said. “I was so upset.”
                                      Like seriously go read the whole thing; so many parallels to equestrian sport.
                                      Last edited by poltroon; Aug. 13, 2019, 02:39 PM. Reason: Added sad quote, clarified reporting activity
                                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                                        There are multiple cases in gymnastics ranging from very local coaches to elite national coaches. Don Peters was the national coach for the 1984 team and was banned for sexual abuse in 2011 (allegations include events during the 1980s). Marvin Sharp is another national team coach who was banned, again quite late compared to the timing of the first complaints. USA Gymnastics is in trouble not because of the actions of Nassar alone but from many many ignored reports about several individuals, as well as allegations that their officials tampered with evidence.
                                        Ick. Gross.

                                        Thanks.

                                        Was Karolyi included on that sex offenders list? Or did he just work them to a crazy degree on one meal a week?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by eeyore886 View Post
                                          So I have not read every comment posted here. I'm pretty sure there is enough from both sides. But here's my two cents for what it's worth. I am outraged that someone can reach out from 50 years ago and destroy a man's life with no proof except that it's now PC to do so. We watched the lies during the Kavanaugh hearing trying to destroy a good man's career and life with no proof, and no memory even. Now, because "me too" is trending, everyone who feels they were "abused" in some way is jumping on the band wagon. Without actual proof, it is wrong, even a sin, to ruin a man's reputation and livelihood. And I'm sorry that proof can't be had from 50years ago, but that's just too bad then. You can't destroy someone based on a memory. How can it even be answered., It's all he said, she said. And that's not good enough. If it did happen, it's unfortunate. But there is no way that anyone can be held liable for it now. This Safe Sport has gone too far. I am disgusted.
                                          Your ignorance is staggering. Have you been in a coma for oh, say 40 years?
                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                          Comment

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