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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    Um wow. I just know I can have normal conversations with lawyers. Like when I bring up a legally charged subject they talk to me like a normal person and they do not flex their lawyer muscles. Glad people support you. I believe your credentials I just don’t get why every Safe Sport thread has to be about a law school exercise.

    And no I won’t because I’m booked on Friday’s. Honestly my job is such that I don’t know when I’m not booked.
    It is unfortunate you are never available. I can work with you to schedule a time otherwise.

    Comment


    • @ afterhalter2019
      We need to put pressure on businesses who sponsor a farm that is owned by or has a head trainer that is (or was) on the sex offender registry for sexual acts against a minor.
      What did TEVA say?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

        It is unfortunate you are never available. I can work with you to schedule a time otherwise.
        Sorry military. 9-5 isn’t in my job description and I’m transferring. I would be happy to take this off COTH but I’m in the middle of a transfer and have limited time. None of that is meant to be snarky by the way. I really would love to talk to you about all this. I just find your posts in this topic a weird lawyer flex.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
          @ afterhalter2019

          What did TEVA say?
          No response yet, but it’s after business hours so I’m not expecting one tonight. If I hear back I’ll be sure to update here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by fargaloo View Post
            WRT "it was the times" defence...

            There is a huge difference between things that were acceptable and common in a previous era, and things that were not acceptable but people (especially well-off white men) got away with. It's actually not that hard to spot the difference.

            Many things that were common and acceptable 50 years ago but would not be acceptable now include:
            - smoking while pregnant;
            - keeping horses in standing stalls most of the day;
            - throwing your trash out the car window;
            - letting your kids bounce around in the back of the station wagon instead of wearring seatbelts;
            - letting your unfixed dog wander around the neighbourhood on its own;
            - leaving your baby in a carriage outside the store while you did your shopping;
            - etc. etc. etc.

            You can tell they were widely acceptable because no one HID that they did those things. You see it in family snapshots; people tell anecdotes with these details, etc. There has been NO time in the last 50 years that 30, 40, 50-year-old men proudly squired around 14-year-olds and introduced them as romantic partners to their neighbours, their bosses, their great aunts. Sexual predators took pains then (as they do now) to coerce and shame their victims into silence. Why was 4LeafCloverFarm forced to apologize to her neighbour, if claiming that a grown man kissed a young girl wasn't thought to be a terrible accusation?

            In the 80's I was propositioned by a couple of male professors. I wasn't being asked to be a "girlfriend"; I wasn't expecting that the offer would include meeting the Dean for cocktails and strolling hand in hand across campus. I knew that if I said yes it would have been some version of a grotty motel and "please keep your mouth shut". They knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong and against the academic code; they just thought they could get away with it. The culture started to change when they stopped getting away with it.

            "OK, it's wrong -- but everyone was doing it!" isn't a defence that works with your mom, your HR department or the law.
            Exactly. And what bothers me about anyone who *at all* isn't gung-ho for SafeSport's mission is because well-off, well-educated members of the horsey set have plenty of power, cultural capital and real capital. No, not all of us can be white males. But, by and large, we are not oppressed or powerless to do what is right.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • Originally posted by AlterHalter2019 View Post

              I have reached out to Total Equine Veterinary Associates myself to find out what their stance is on this. In 2018 they announced their participation in the SafeSport certification program; I don’t know how they can say they support SafeSport and encourage people to speak up, yet still sponsor Navarro/RCF. Maybe they don’t sponsor them anymore, but like Stubben, they are still listed on the RCF site as a sponsor. I would encourage others to contact Total Equine Veterinary Associates as well.

              Has anyone reached out to SmartPak and Saddlery liquidators? We need to put pressure on businesses who sponsor a farm that is owned by or has a head trainer that is (or was) on the sex offender registry for sexual acts against a minor.
              Before you drag out the pitchforks on indvidual service providers, remember that River Chase is a large boarding barn and the owner of the brand may have nothing to do with what vet a boarder hires. If you boarded there would you want your vet to drop you as a client because the "owner" you may never see was suspended by SS?

              Think of it another way. If an apartment building with 100 units is managed by a SS person, would you bash the electrician for coming out to help one of the renters?
              "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

                Before you drag out the pitchforks on indvidual service providers, remember that River Chase is a large boarding barn and the owner of the brand may have nothing to do with what vet a boarder hires. If you boarded there would you want your vet to drop you as a client because the "owner" you may never see was suspended by SS?
                I contacted the practice because they are specifically listed as a Sponsor of RCF. Not because they provide a service there. If [the Practice] simply sees clients at the barn that’s one thing, but by allowing your practice to be listed as a sponsor of the farm, that is significantly different than being a vet that one or many boarders use. Perhaps [the Practice] is unaware that they are listed as a sponsor. If that is the case, then they probably would like to know. I wouldn’t expect the practice to stop servicing individual clients at the barn. I would expect them to remove sponsorship and create a clear delineation between “supporting Navarro as a sponsor” and “being hired by a RCF boarder to provide a service”. Sponsorship indicates a supportive relationship between a business and an organization/team/individual, whether financial or otherwise. Seeing someone as a sponsor indicates that they vouch for that organization/team/individual. If [the Practice] wants to support Navarro as a sponsor, and essentially put their brand on the farm/trainer, that tells me that they condone that behavior or are at least happy to turn a blind eye.

                ETA- I am removing the vet practice’s name from my posts now that the sponsorship page is no longer listed on the website. I suspect that RCF has taken the page down for damage control, but I want to give the practice the benefit of the doubt and consider that perhaps they contacted RCF and requested to be removed; if that’s the case maybe between them and Stubben RCF decided to remove the page. Or, it could simply be that RCF is getting flak from sponsors over being contacted, and the page is being removed just to prevent further inquiries. Either way, I don’t think it’s fair to call out a practice when their association / “sponsorship” is no longer on the website, regardless of why it was taken down.
                Last edited by AlterHalter2019; Aug. 13, 2019, 12:42 AM.

                Comment


                • This is a wee little legal issue eddy; you all might want to scroll on by.

                  fordtraktor

                  Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                  My pleasure, your question was a very good and thoughtful one. I spent five years as an antitrust lawyer, it isn't something I would expect a layman to be familiar with in detail.

                  The problem with a lot of legal tactics is that they don't make much sense until you really dig down into them. Antitrust statutes are rife with this. The Robinson-Patman Act, another antitrust statute, prohibits "price discrimination." We all know that there are many good reasons why prices can be different for an item (like bulk purchasing, dated materials, transport costs, etc.) but on its face, the RPA completely prohibits all that. Courts have basically decided to ignore that aspect of the statute completely, with a few small exceptions too irrelevant to worry about. Antitrust is a weird, weird area of law! I always loved it as a lawyer because it really allows you to be creative thinking up solutions to problems, but the reality is that isn't good when it comes to being fair to the people and corporations subject to it.

                  So one of my original questions still remains-- why consider the USEF to be an organization devoted to fairly promoting "commerce" at all? In other words, if it were seen as something different, would the Sherman Act seem applicable at all? In fact, would any area of Antitrust law be applicable.

                  I do understand that the argument behind my question would have to be convincingly made. And that's where I think the "heavy lifting" might come in-- you'd have to revise an old and established way of looking at an organization as it already been incorporated into the law.

                  IMO, some parts of intellectual property law (e.g. patenting lengths of DNA and deciding what kind of thing DNA is) has the same problem... but weirder. All of intellectually property law is metaphysical and excellently weird.

                  Allrightythen.

                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                    I want to respond this post to explain myself. I understood what you have been saying. Having worked for and educated by attorneys who handle these cases and appellate cases all the way up to the SCOTUS is why I was rude. If ones only responses to these threads are akin to a legal exercise one sounds like Bonnie Nevin to me. I apologize but still think the legal backbends would have been better in its own thread.
                    Hey, man. I'm not a lawyer. fordtraktor was just answering my "interested.... able to read.... does actually read and google" layman's question about the Sherman Act. The post to which you are responding was actually another minor legal eddy in which fordtraktor was answering me.

                    Sorry to have done my share of stirring up a kind of side-line conversation about some obscure and technical stuff. But I wouldn't get too upset about those little side-line things. Just scroll by if the legal reasoning doesn't do it for you. It's never going to be discussed here with enough thoroughness and in the terms that will satisfy those with professional expertise in this part of the law.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gainer View Post

                      Navarro and Jay Joyce are buddies, so don't expect any change. Joyce is also the barn vet.
                      Thankfully, my farrier is the one that told me when I was new to the area to avoid River Chase.

                      If they are sponsoring them....TEVA will lose my business. I don't expect them to stop treating horses there for private clients, but supporting the owners is as good as condoning.

                      I've posted numerous warnings in my Mom's groups in the local area that have kids that ride at River Chase. Tom Navarro also did a class at George Mason as well, I remember reading that and wondering if they did a background check. He's still listed as a owner and showed up in Facebook pics coaching young kids.

                      https://www.riverchasefarm.com/tom-navarro4
                      "Anyone who tries to make brownies without butter should be arrested." Ina Garten

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by luvmyhackney View Post

                        Thankfully, my farrier is the one that told me when I was new to the area to avoid River Chase.

                        If they are sponsoring them....TEVA will lose my business. I don't expect them to stop treating horses there for private clients, but supporting the owners is as good as condoning.

                        I've posted numerous warnings in my Mom's groups in the local area that have kids that ride at River Chase. Tom Navarro also did a class at George Mason as well, I remember reading that and wondering if they did a background check. He's still listed as a owner and showed up in Facebook pics coaching young kids.

                        https://www.riverchasefarm.com/tom-navarro4
                        Exactly. I wouldn’t expect nor ask [the Practice] to stop seeing clients at this farm. I would expect them to pull their “Sponsorship”, if there is one. If there isn’t one, they need to be aware that the perception is there and they should work to get that info taken off of the website.

                        Or, if they are buddies and want to condone the behavior, that would be nice to know and would be disappointing to learn.

                        ETA- I am removing the vet practice’s name from my posts now that the sponsorship page is no longer listed on the website. I suspect that RCF has taken the page down for damage control, but I want to give the practice the benefit of the doubt and consider that perhaps they contacted RCF and requested to be removed; if that’s the case maybe between them and Stubben RCF decided to remove the page. Or, it could simply be that RCF is getting flak from sponsors over being contacted, and the page is being removed just to prevent further inquiries. Either way, I don’t think it’s fair to call out a practice when their association / “sponsorship” is no longer on the website, regardless of why it was taken down.
                        Last edited by AlterHalter2019; Aug. 13, 2019, 12:40 AM. Reason: Removed practice name because sponsorship is no longer on website.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AlterHalter2019 View Post

                          I contacted the practice because they are specifically listed as a Sponsor of RCF. Not because they provide a service there. If TEVA simply sees clients at the barn that’s one thing, but by allowing your practice to be listed as a sponsor of the farm, that is significantly different than being a vet that one or many boarders use. Perhaps TEVA is unaware that they are listed as a sponsor. If that is the case, then they probably would like to know. I wouldn’t expect the practice to stop servicing individual clients at the barn. I would expect them to remove sponsorship and create a clear delineation between “supporting Navarro as a sponsor” and “being hired by a RCF boarder to provide a service”. Sponsorship indicates a supportive relationship between a business and an organization/team/individual, whether financial or otherwise. Seeing someone as a sponsor indicates that they vouch for that organization/team/individual. If TEVA wants to support Navarro as a sponsor, and essentially put their brand on the farm/trainer, that tells me that they condone that behavior or are at least happy to turn a blind eye.
                          Curiosity got the better of me and I looked on the website. Where do you see TEVA as a sponsor? https://www.riverchasefarm.com

                          I will say that you all were far nicer to Stubben than to local vet, TEVA. It's after hours and you didn't speak with anyone but that hasn't stopped posters from piling on and threatening to pull their business based off of a few posts by an alter.

                          I do know TEVA and they've been nothing but professional and highly ethical in the decade plus they've cared for my horses. I think being associated with a person on the SS list would appall them (once they find out). This isn't a post-SS investigation with a verdict handed down. Just be careful about piling on based on internet gossip. This isn't Facebook.

                          This is going to be a recurring issue as more and more people land on the SS list. We should be careful about publicly bashing individuals and businesses who may be caught in the business web. As you said, they may not even know that there is an issue with the person... SS is new.
                          Last edited by Tiramit; Aug. 13, 2019, 12:04 AM.
                          "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                          Comment


                          • Tiramit - earlier this afternoon there was a "Sponsors" button on their web page - right next to the "Training" button.... That Sponsor button seems to have gone **poof**!
                            ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

                              Curiosity got the better of me and I looked on the website. Where do you see TEVA as a sponsor? https://www.riverchasefarm.com

                              I will say that you all were far nicer to Stubben than to local vet, TEVA. It's after hours and you didn't speak with anyone but that hasn't stopped everyone from piling on and threatening to pull their business.

                              This is going to be a recurring issue as more and more people land on the SS list. We should be careful about publicly bashing individuals and businesses who may be caught in the business web. As you said, they may not even know that there is an issue with the person... SS is new.
                              Well THAT is interesting. River Chase has removed their Sponsors list from their website. It was there three hours ago. See screenshot. I guess they did damage control.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • Well that's good. That answers that question. The sponsors were not there when I looked. I did notice that the schedule on that screen shot says 2018, so it's clear that it had not been updated in a while.
                                Last edited by Tiramit; Aug. 13, 2019, 12:18 AM. Reason: to add the date
                                "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                Comment


                                • mvp there is some history behind using the antitrust laws in the context of sports. It’s not a crazy idea, although I disagree with the viability of that strategy here. There’s an overlap between labor law and some antitrust concerns when it comes to league sports. There have also been issues with monopoly power and sports.

                                  As far as suspensions and antitrust, the case I studied in law school had to do with suspensions in golf from the 70s and 80s.

                                  The NCAA has also been found to have violated Sherman Act Sec 1.

                                  In any event, it’s not a stretch if someone pursued this angle with SS. And it’s reasonable for people to ask how SS might be able to be challenged in the alternative to the mostly ridiculous constitutionality comments.


                                  Maybe i misread the article (I read it fast), but the proposed new bill doesn’t seem to really pressure the NGBs directly. Rather, it points fingers at the USOC who presumably would then be more strict towards the NGBs. Am I the only one that foresees a hot mess if this moves forward?

                                  Comment


                                  • So a little more about that River Chase website, given the complexities of Safe Sport... and a few other things to think about.

                                    First... I’d imagine it hadn’t been updated in awhile, and someone called and instructed them to remove their business name, etc, as a “Sponsor.” And the quickest way to accomplish this was just to remove that whole link on the site. So that’s interesting.

                                    But also noteworthy is that Navarro lists himself as a former “professor” at George Mason University on his bio. Words matter. Teaching one class at GMU does not make you a “professor”. It makes you an instructor. Of one intro level elective class. People who BS like that, and inflate their resumes? Not cool. Disrespectful to folks who really are actual professors at GMU... which is a pretty well respected school.

                                    Also worthy of note in the context of Safe Sport... Kim Murphy is listed on the site as an FEI Dressage Instructor and Judge. So... can she have a business affiliation with someone who is banned by Safe Sport... and still judge at recognized competitions?

                                    Rick Eckhart is also listed on the website as affiliated with River Chase. I’m not sure if he has been active judging recently at recognized shows... but the same issue applies. Can he have s business relationship with this farm, which is run by someone who is banned by Safe Sport, and still judge at recognized competitions?

                                    Back to the sponsorship issue with TEVA though. I will say, I heard about another trainer down in Fauquier County who had posters with advertising info for two different area vet practices hanging in their indoor arena... as well as one from Saddlery Liquidators. Some former clients were informed that these vet practices and Saddlery Liquidators were “sponsors.”

                                    I doubt it it was anything beyond a bit of, “Hey - you can advertise at our farm” and then the farm owner trying to “inflate” the significance of it to impress people, and get them to assume something in terms of “sponsorship.” I wouldn’t be surprised if the situation at River Chase was something similar to that with respect to TEVA. Stubben is a different situation though, and I am just glad they are still the old school respectable name I always thought of them as :-)

                                    Comment


                                    • Update Re: RCF sponsorship

                                      TEVA has responded to my message and has stated that they are NOT a sponsor. They stated that they take SafeSport seriously with their three veterinarians completing the certification, and their information has been removed from the RCF website. Their obligation lies solely with the horses and their welfare.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post
                                        Also worthy of note in the context of Safe Sport... Kim Murphy is listed on the site as an FEI Dressage Instructor and Judge. So... can she have a business affiliation with someone who is banned by Safe Sport... and still judge at recognized competitions?

                                        Rick Eckhart is also listed on the website as affiliated with River Chase. I’m not sure if he has been active judging recently at recognized shows... but the same issue applies. Can he have s business relationship with this farm, which is run by someone who is banned by Safe Sport, and still judge at recognized competitions?
                                        A search of members on the USEF website shows no members with the last name Eckhart, and five people named Kim or Kimberly Murphy, one in Virginia, all listed as inactive.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                                          A search of members on the USEF website shows no members with the last name Eckhart, and five people named Kim or Kimberly Murphy, one in Virginia, all listed as inactive.
                                          Interesting. I don’t know anyone who rides with either Kim Murphy or Rick Eckhart. Don’t know the current status of their relationship to the farm or Navarro. But I do see the bio and names on the River Chase website.

                                          Comment

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