Stallion Spotlight

Sandro Hit Standa Eylers

Real Estate Spotlight

EREP-2
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

George Morris on the SS list

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by findeight View Post
    Was just thinking about how some parents think “ the talk’ is don’t get into a plain white creeper van to see the puppies if they are under 12 and STDs, condoms and pills for 15 and 16 year olds and patting them on the back.The Casting Couch is rarely,if ever, discussed and guessing never outside of girls the entertainment industry.
    The thing is: parent's don't want to needlessly instill general fears of mankind in their children. I'm sure there must be some books about how to conduct such conversations. Maybe USEF needs to produce a what-to-do-if-your-trainer pamphlet.

    In the barn I worked at as pre-teen/teen (more like volunteered at - for love of the horse), there was a warning amongst us girls; don't go into a straight stall unless you knew where X was.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mountainbells View Post
      Question for those in the multitude of professions/fields outside of horses: What are some of the other professions etc, that institute SS/MAAPP like policies? I would be interested in a list, to pass this info onto others in explaining the value of SS and MAAPP. So far, I've come up with: Education, Health care, Law ("the Bar"). What else? Does 4H and FFA have them? I would hope so!. Thank you.
      Speaking from California, yes, 4-H has them and I was trained in them when I became a leader a decade ago.

      FFA leaders are school employees - ie credentialed teachers - and every school district has a set of policies, procedures, and training that are constantly monitored and evaluated.

      In both cases we work with livestock and overnight visits and car rides.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mvp View Post

        Thank you for explaining just how damaging "collateral" damage is!

        And imagine the grown-up version of the people who grew up in "that different time" who, too, may not have ever acquired the vocabulary or tools or sense of self it takes to call a spade a spade when it comes to recognizing predatory behavior and being the kind of adult who stands up to it.
        They're all crashing into each other over at ISWG on FB.
        *************************
        Go, Baby, Go......
        Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mountainbells View Post
          Another question, for a horse professional wanting to create and institute a policy to cover the MAAPP guidelines and distribute to parents and clients, are there any resources available to help develop such a document for their business? This especially pertains to those trying to avoid the $$$ of a lawyer, or in the case of being in a rural area with no *relevant* legal expertise available for hundreds of miles (think out west in some of the rather limited populated areas). I recognize, that the first place to access, of course, is the MAAPP policy itself. Any other suggestions?
          Your liability insurance company is probably working on something. I've come across several that offer brochures and free training materials to anyone on their websites.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sswor View Post

            I'd like to know. I work with horse killers and insurance fraudsters, people who cheat and lie and steal, everyone knows and no one cares. These names are all over the internet and parents just pick the closest barn with the cheapest lessons and do as you stated; drop kiddos off and never think twice about it.

            Meanwhile, there's a few people like me out there--teaching a high quality lesson with appropriate and well trained school horses for a fair price, always above board in ethics and customer service and I'm constantly financially anxious. Why? Because I'm nobody from nowhere and never had my name associated with a big medal win or a big money horse. My parents weren't rich, I didn't show in the Junior ring, I didn't even own a horse. I started as a groom and a stall mucker and a pony ride leader and a livery guide and somehow got a foot in the door but that's all so here I am.

            It kills me. Honest to god. It doesn't matter the quality of your teaching and coaching and training, all that matters is the money you come from and who you associate with. That's the truth.
            In a world where a lot of people might be reconsidering who they train with these days, it might be a good month to get to work on your farm website and put up some great new professional pictures and new copy about your program and what you offer to help people find you and decide to give you a try.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

              Why do you keep referring back to the Court system ?

              GM is appealing the SafeSport ban within the SafeSport parameters.

              Do you mean protesting SafeSports makeup and procedures to the Federal Senate that passed the bill ??
              Yes, GM's immediate option is to go through the Safesport process, which I believe provides for arbitration as the next step. However, my assumption is that some day he, or someone else, will challenge SafeSport in court-- say if the arbitration goes against them. As we all recall from high school, one of the functions of the judicial branch is to pass muster on laws passed by Congress. It's not like laws are a done deal just because Congress passes them.

              I did a quick Lexis search and turned up a few cases that mention SafeSport, but the few I found are in preliminary stages and/or not really on point, so as far as I could find, there are no substantive decisions. That's not too surprising, because a case could easily take 2-5 years to reach the point where there is a published decision.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post
                They're all crashing into each other over at ISWG on FB.
                Good, but I don't have the stomach to go there.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by HLMom View Post

                  Yes, GM's immediate option is to go through the Safesport process, which I believe provides for arbitration as the next step. However, my assumption is that some day he, or someone else, will challenge SafeSport in court-- say if the arbitration goes against them. As we all recall from high school, one of the functions of the judicial branch is to pass muster on laws passed by Congress. It's not like laws are a done deal just because Congress passes them.

                  I did a quick Lexis search and turned up a few cases that mention SafeSport, but the few I found are in preliminary stages and/or not really on point, so as far as I could find, there are no substantive decisions. That's not too surprising, because a case could easily take 2-5 years to reach the point where there is a published decision.
                  Think it’s a better topic for a law forum. I highly doubt the case would go as far as the SCOTUS. There, to my eye, is nothing that violates one constitutional rights when it comes to how Safe Sport operates and what kind of punishments it hands out. I also think you are posing these questions under the assumption that the ONLY evidence is from 50 years ago (per the accused and no one else) with people who may or may not have been legal under the law as far as NJ is concerned.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mountainbells View Post
                    Another question, for a horse professional wanting to create and institute a policy to cover the MAAPP guidelines and distribute to parents and clients, are there any resources available to help develop such a document for their business? This especially pertains to those trying to avoid the $$$ of a lawyer, or in the case of being in a rural area with no *relevant* legal expertise available for hundreds of miles (think out west in some of the rather limited populated areas). I recognize, that the first place to access, of course, is the MAAPP policy itself. Any other suggestions?
                    I believe there are some sample consent forms and the like on the USEF website under Safe Sport.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                      Think it’s a better topic for a law forum. I highly doubt the case would go as far as the SCOTUS. There, to my eye, is nothing that violates one constitutional rights when it comes to how Safe Sport operates and what kind of punishments it hands out. I also think you are posing these questions under the assumption that the ONLY evidence is from 50 years ago (per the accused and no one else) with people who may or may not have been legal under the law as far as NJ is concerned.
                      I don’t know the details, but a very prominent skating coach tried to sue Safesport in court and I believe the case was thrown out. Richard Callaghan. He’s back in the news now actually with more allegations of abuse.

                      Comment


                      • For those who say "oh the victim should just speak up" need to realize its not so easy. There needs to be someone to tell, someone who will listen. And someone that the person who might want to tell feels like they can trust--at least enough to tell. And if the adults around you havve betrayed that trust, then finding someone that you dare trust is hard. Very very hard. I work in higher ed now. When a student is at my door, saying,"Can I speak with you...there is no one else to speak with..." you better believe I put aside what I am doing, and make time and room for that student. I listen. I try to connect them to the right services. And I always say that my door is always open to them. I am not a therapist, I am not the police, but I am someone who can listen, care, and support them to get their story to the right place. Their trust in me is a gift, even if sometimes the revelations can be overwhelming to listen to.


                        Its not that easy for the survivor of abuse or molestation to tell. There has to be someone to tell, and trust me, most people are too uncomfortable to want to hear it. Denial is a powerful thing-- that is partly what must fuel the ISWG folks.

                        A canter is a cure for every evil. ~Benjamin Disraeli

                        Comment


                        • If arbitration is involved does that mean there is even court appeal of the arbitration decision? Of course anyone can appeal anything but it might be limited to challenge to process only and there has to be court jurisdiction. Secondly in many adminstrative proceedings where a process is found to be flawed it does not mean anyone wins , it just means a do over using new procedures.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by alicen View Post

                            Good, but I don't have the stomach to go there.
                            I don't, but random posts are landing in my Groups newsfeed.
                            *************************
                            Go, Baby, Go......
                            Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sswor View Post
                              On the flip side, I can't say a damn word about this GM thing (other then here) because I work with these people. To speak up against GM would be career suicide or very near akin to it. These people rule the h/j world and that's all there is to it. It's like a snake pit and you have to be very careful how you navigate in it.
                              I said something in an early post on this thead. Day 1 or 2, to the gist that GHM has/had more power in our sport globally than any other single individual. EVER.

                              Anyone who thinks he didn't have the power to ruin a career, scupper a deal, keep someone off the Olympic or Nations Cup teams, blackball their star hunter or Big Eq candidate? Think again.

                              It makes me think that not everyone in the ISWG groups actually SWG. They just have to appear to do so in case he walks.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by HLMom View Post

                                Yes, GM's immediate option is to go through the Safesport process, which I believe provides for arbitration as the next step. However, my assumption is that some day he, or someone else, will challenge SafeSport in court-- say if the arbitration goes against them. As we all recall from high school, one of the functions of the judicial branch is to pass muster on laws passed by Congress. It's not like laws are a done deal just because Congress passes them.

                                I did a quick Lexis search and turned up a few cases that mention SafeSport, but the few I found are in preliminary stages and/or not really on point, so as far as I could find, there are no substantive decisions. That's not too surprising, because a case could easily take 2-5 years to reach the point where there is a published decision.
                                And because SafeSport was only signed in and enacted in 2017.

                                Now, I find the keyword in your thinking.....Assumption.
                                Are you indeed a lawyer ??

                                I still find you layering the Courts of Law with Safesports internal strictures.
                                *************************
                                Go, Baby, Go......
                                Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Anniemaymay View Post

                                  I don’t know the details, but a very prominent skating coach tried to sue Safesport in court and I believe the case was thrown out. Richard Callaghan. He’s back in the news now actually with more allegations of abuse.
                                  Yes, I saw the Callaghan case. It wasn't exactly "thrown out." It was "dismissed without prejudice" for "failure to exhaust administrative remedies." That means he was sent back to the Safesport forum to exhaust all procedures and appeals he has there. Once he has done that, he can return to court (that's the "without prejudice" part) and the court will decide then if he can proceed.

                                  I do agree with omare, above, that no court is going to reconsider the strength of the evidence and overturn the arbitrators' decision on the facts--i.e., if the arbitrators say he's guilty, a court won't come along and say, gee we think he's innocent. But what I think is possible is some kind of collateral attack that the law was improperly enacted, that it exceeds Congress's jurisdiction, that it is unconstitutional etc. Again, I am throwing out POSSIBLE avenues of attack... it is not my area of the law and I really can't evaluate how such arguments would go.

                                  Comment


                                  • I posted this law review article on the Rob Gage thread but it didn’t get any attention. It explains how the federal Sherman Act is used to analyze complaints about being banned from an association or sports club, and emphasizes the need for a fair and nonarbitrary procedure. If a case is filed in court after the appeal, it will likely take this shape. There are many, many cases going for and against associations, based very specifically on the facts. This author believes SafeSport should be Ok, but much will also depend on how IN FACT the procedures were applied, and that we shall see.

                                    i tried explaining in that thread how the argument that private clubs can do anything they want is wrong, and also that this involved a constitutional due process right is wrong. An actual challenge would likely involve neither.

                                    to be clear, in such a case there are market impact questions at stake, and then 1. Are the procedures the association has in place fair and reasonable? And 2. If so, did the association actually follow those procedures in the case at hand to a reasonable degree?

                                    https://scholarship.law.marquette.ed...text=sportslaw

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Sswor View Post
                                      On the flip side, I can't say a damn word about this GM thing (other then here) because I work with these people. To speak up against GM would be career suicide or very near akin to it. These people rule the h/j world and that's all there is to it. It's like a snake pit and you have to be very careful how you navigate in it.

                                      Many years ago now there was a wonderful older woman, I'll call her XYZ, at my daughter's barn who was one of the top amateur riders in the country and had the nicest, most expensive horses bought from top trainers/show barns. One horse was the national champion the year before. We would laugh at her audacity sometimes, she did exactly what she wanted and no one would dare cross her. One time I remember she flew in Friday morning for her class, stepped out of her limo into a mud puddle from a hard rain the night before, and promptly got back into the limo and left. Never showed. I often saw her pull up if she missed to a jump because if she wasn't going to win, why make her horse jump any more jumps.

                                      Anyway, there was a younger amateur in the barn who it was whispered was having an affair during the winter circuit with a 17-year-old boy who rode in the jumpers. When XYZ heard the rumor, she promptly went to our trainer and told her she would not tolerate that behavior and to kick the woman out of the barn immediately. I wasn't sure whether XYZ was upset that the boy was underage or that the woman was married with children--possibly both. Either way, because she had the power the younger amateur went that same day.

                                      At home we shared a facility with another trainer. There was talk that the trainer, a thirty-something man, was sleeping with his fourteen-year-old girl student, and, worse, her mother knew about it and was OK with it. One day XYZ was walking her horse out after a lesson and as she rode by the barn row of the other trainer, she saw the trainer and the girl doing something inappropriate (she never described exactly what) in one of the stalls. She promptly turned around, marched up to the property owner's house, told him what she saw, and decreed that the trainer was to be kicked out. The trainer was gone within the week.

                                      Too bad we don't have more people around the show world now like XYZ. She had the right moral compass and was not in the least afraid to speak up or wield her power. Even though our trainer was/is a GM disciple, it would be interesting to see where XYZ would come down on the current situation.

                                      Comment


                                      • I think if anyone here wanted to set up a SS MAAPP like policy at their barn start with SS itself. Set your expectations for their understanding and engagement. It is no longer accepted that Little Suzi should just ask the trainer on the phone or email text etc. Everything and everyone must be transparent.

                                        Parent needs to be up on the rules and that means going through the SS training
                                        _\\]
                                        -- * > hoopoe
                                        Procrastinate NOW
                                        Introverted Since 1957

                                        Comment


                                        • I have not read the whole law reveiw article but in going over the history it seems to not address congressional involvement and the requirements set out by law i think because it is referring to 2014 action by the us olympic committee (predating the law) as opposed to the 2017 law. I also notice the 2017 law refers to binding arbitration which usually means no appeal to court of the particular decision. When congress does not provide a path to appeal a decision that is nigh impossible to overcome - unless one is challenging a process. (Take foregoing with a big grain of salt as it is just first impression .) edited to add if the process is attacked is the best he can get is a do over with a new process?
                                          Last edited by omare; Aug. 10, 2019, 04:02 PM. Reason: Another thought

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X