Sport Horse Spotlight

Real Estate Spotlight

Sale Spotlight

  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

George Morris on the SS list

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

    I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Room for a Pony View Post

      I am aware of two who were involved and are still in the industry. Sometimes working together, still.
      Yes there are plenty of bad apples that are still with us. Safe Sport is working on it, but they can't do anything about insurance fraud.

      USEF can, however, by their own rules, they must be able to refer to criminal charges and convictions of insurance fraud. I am guessing the folks you are speaking of weren't convicted?

      Safe Sport has more leeway, which is obviously required in cases of sexual misconduct between coaches and students.
      Last edited by skydy; Aug. 6, 2019, 12:57 PM. Reason: Spelling

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
        Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

        I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
        They have a central database of all sanctioned NGB members, separated by sport. Looks like plenty of folks in the couple categories I just searched (gymnastics, soccer, track) - even more than equestrian actually.

        https://uscenterforsafesport.org/res...nary-database/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
          Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

          I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
          if you read through the Rob Gage thread, nope, we're the worst in terms of public pushback against a d resistance to safe sport, according to a person from another sport who has been personally involved with safe sport operations.

          Hurray for us...
          Let me apologize in advance.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AllOverFarm View Post
            I’m wondering if the “ 50 yr old allegation “, is just a PR move ....similar to RG’s “ it was a mutual relationship with a girl just shy of her 18th birthday “.
            I’ve heard rumors of George liking young boys for years. This is no shocker to me. Wonder if tryon will change the name of its stadium & his name will be removed from any awards.
            Why wouldn't anyone try a PR "move"? It worked so well with Gage supporters.

            I know, it's so difficult and disappointing to see that your hero is not a good person, yet it is time that the victims of our "heroes" are taken into account. This has been going on for far too long.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

              if you read through the Rob Gage thread, nope, we're the worst in terms of public pushback against a d resistance to safe sport, according to a person from another sport who has been personally involved with safe sport operations.

              Hurray for us...
              I tried to keep up with the RG thread. But I got too busy for a couple of days, and then BOOM! 100 pages. I don't have time for that right now.

              I'm too deeply entrenched in the bubble that is the horse world to know what other sports are like, but I have to think that our culture of condoning these behaviors is exceptional. And not in a good way.

              Thanks for the confirmation I guess?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post

                They have a central database of all sanctioned NGB members, separated by sport. Looks like plenty of folks in the couple categories I just searched (gymnastics, soccer, track) - even more than equestrian actually.

                https://uscenterforsafesport.org/res...nary-database/
                I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                  Yes there are plenty of bad apples that are still with us. Safe Sort is working on it, but they can't do anything about insurance fraud.

                  USEF can, however, by their own rules, they must be able to refer to criminal charges and convictions of insurance fraud. I am guessing the folks you are speaking of weren't convicted?
                  Both plead guilty to various things...conspiracy, lying. Didn't apparently learn anything from their sentences, though. And even with the internet they still get clients and run their businesses.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Room for a Pony View Post

                    Both plead guilty to various things...conspiracy, lying. Didn't apparently learn anything from their sentences, though. And even with the internet they still get clients and run their businesses.
                    Are they banned?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                      I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                      I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                      I wonder that all the time. The last few months have been eye-opening, to say the least. I work in higher ed in a very liberal corner of the country and do a lot of work around Title IX, sexual violence prevention, etc. and I’m definitely starting to realize how much of a bubble I live in. The response to the Safe Sport policies, RG, JW, and now GM has really surprised me.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
                        Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

                        I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
                        There have been numerous other sports, which are more publicly high profile, like gymnastics and skating, that have had major issues, SS issued a report just on figure skating:
                        https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...rt/3053528002/
                        And Olympian Ashley Wagner just spoke out last week on her experiences:
                        https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/s...l-assault.html

                        The whole Safe Sport thing was created in the wake of the Nassar scandal with gymnastics.
                        https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...?module=inline

                        Swimming has also had their own issues, though I haven't followed much of that.
                        https://www.ocregister.com/2018/02/1...e-for-decades/

                        Congress wants MORE oversight by Safe Sport in the wake of what has happened in numerous sports:
                        https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/30/s...soc-abuse.html

                        I'd argue that equestrian suspensions seem like a Big Deal to those in the sport, but are a blip on the register of the bigger, higher-profile sports that draw a lot of eyes during the Olympics.

                        (Sorry, I can't figure out how to make the links pretty anymore!)
                        A Year In the Saddle

                        Comment


                        • I just want to encourage the bravery of the survivor who had the courage to report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                            l only see one. Jonathon Soresi and that is listed under suspensions/ineligible, not a permanent ineligible ban. Both are subject to appeal.

                            Surely we all must realize that this sanction was not imposed capriciously. Mr. Morris has friends and if money is the only hurdle to disproving the accusations against him, it will be provided by someone.
                            Jonathan worked for George at one time, I wonder if this could end up being worse for George. Jonathan is known for this around many communities...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Floridagirl71! View Post

                              Jonathan worked for George at one time, I wonder if this could end up being worse for George. Jonathan is known for this around many communities...
                              I am sorry to hear that he is "known for this" (ye gads not another one) although I suppose it's better late than never for the rest of us to find out.
                              Last edited by skydy; Aug. 6, 2019, 02:56 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rackonteur View Post
                                Sounds like McCarthyism all over again. "Safe" "Sport" witch hunts.
                                S P O T O N!!
                                Aefvue Farm Ft.Lauderdale

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                                  I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                                  I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                                  Complete speculation on my part but I would say potentially not per capita, at least regarding older accusations, however I'm basing this on my own experiences in that world (70s onward) and not on any kind of data.

                                  My take is that equestrian sports are/were unique from other sports in a few ways. Historically absolutely zero formal oversight for one. Kids frequently finding themselves alone with adult coaches, even though there may have been other people on the periphery doing their own thing.

                                  Then add in the phenomenon of delusions of grandeur affecting a lot of horsemen, from the lowliest camp coach to the upper elite for juniors. In all my youthful years of riding I rarely remember a coach being called out for inappropriate behavior. I'm not saying they all were predatorial (or bullies..a weirdly high number of the adult women in that world were frightening), only that other than maybe a quick eye roll, nobody challenged those who were. Like an unwritten code of hero worship and protection that closed ranks around some of these supposed demigods.

                                  Then there was the lack of parental supervision or in many cases any parent involvement at all, other than paying the bills.

                                  And finally you have the unusual situation where kids/teens are not only obsessed with their sport but with the animals themselves, and know they can be separated from them on a coach's whim.

                                  All in - a set of circumstances ripe for coercion and abuse.
                                  Last edited by ohmyheck; Aug. 6, 2019, 03:06 AM.
                                  One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                  William Shakespeare

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Andrew View Post

                                    S P O T O N!!
                                    You think Mccarthyism exposed sex abuse with minors?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                                      I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                                      I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                                      There's a new documentary out called At the Heart of Gold regarding the gymnastics scandal and all the mishaps that allowed Nassar to abuse girls (sometimes with their parents IN THE ROOM) for decades.

                                      I'd be interested in the reports/suspensions vs. membership totals as a statistic.

                                      There's a lot of argument about the reporting and investigation process, but in reality only some 45% of reports are investigated (they won't investigate anonymous reports for example, because likelihood of it being malicious)-we never heard about that 55%- and only some 3% of total reports result in an actual suspension.

                                      Common arguments being thrown around right now:

                                      1. "It was so long ago!" - well yea but does that mean all the catholic boys, or victims of jackson/cosby/weinstein/nassar have any more or less valid protection?

                                      2. "Standards and times were different!" - GM is pretty open about his bi/homo-sexuality. This literally could have gotten him lynched by the mob due to the attitudes of the time, as even consensual sex was illegal in most states until 1979 onwards. I imagine this played a role in making reporting both impossible and dangerous. Sex with minors also has a LOOOONG history of being illegal and morally objectionable. Straw man here.

                                      3. "Why wasn't it reported sooner to proper authorities?" - see above, see Larry Nassar.... and also think about if you would report your boss or coach if you thought it would ruin a promising/hopeful career.

                                      4. "But he never abused me!" - and my uncle never abused me, but it turns out he abused two of my brothers and my mother's brother and who knows how many others. Cognitive dissonance sucks, but sometimes that's just reality that otherwise good people can do bad things to other people.

                                      5. "Constitutional rights!" - USEF is a private club and they are cleaning house to ensure higher standards of professional conduct within the industry.

                                      5b. "Due Process! Innocent until proven guilty!" - again, private club, not looking at a prison sentence. Burden of proof is lower. Further, its SUPER common in industries with vulnerable people (hospitals, schools, churches, police etc) for someone accused of misconduct to be suspended until proven innocent in order to protect others. Can you imagine the sh*tstorm USEF would be in if someone else was molested while they took two years arbitrating with someone accused of pedophelia? Like... I would take them to the cleaners if my kid was victimized after someone had been openly accused of abusing kids.

                                      6. "Safe Sport is a witch hunt" - see my comments on the low % of investigations that move forward from initial report, and even lower rate of punishment (again for those at the back, like 3% of total reports have resulted in suspension). Also, the term witch hunt is a joke because witches don't exist- sexual predators do.

                                      7. "They don't release details. I need details to be convinced!" - sorry, but you're not judge and jury and unless you plan on heading the USEF it's really not your business. The privacy around names and allegations is meant to protect BOTH victim and accused. It is not our place to say "was that type of touching bad enough to bring down my idol".... part of Safe Sport's charter is specifically to remove protections provided by notoriety in insular sport communities. Realistically, what would the average person do with these details anyway, other than call the victim ugly names? See Hilary Ridland's post where she's told to rot in hell for offering the details the public BEGGED FOR.

                                      8. "SS is ruining careers" - plenty of people have lucrative horse careers outside the bounds of USEF

                                      Comment


                                      • For some reason I received the email this morning Australian time, also.
                                        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                                          I can’t believe there are people out there who are even the buying the PR spin that these sanctions are for a single incident that happened close to 50 years ago. We all know by know that the “permanent ineligibility” sanction is reserved for the most serious infractions and those who currently represent a potential threat to minors. He can appeal and if he does, I’m sure we will find out more. However I’m guessing that as in the Rob Gage case, other victims will feel empowered to come forward.

                                          And sexual misconduct aside, GM is literally the poster child for bullying in equestrian sport.
                                          Honestly I'm finding myself a little surprised by the reaction to this. I'm a nobody in this sport, I've competed at only a few rated shows in my lifetime, and even *I* have heard stories. Not just rumor mill stories but things directly from a person who trained with him for a while. Not just "innapropriate" conduct but also emotional abuse. That would have happened much, much more recently than "50 years"

                                          But I don't get the whole idea that something that would be a major offense now is somehow not important because it happened fifty years ago anyway. When we hear about old abuse allegations against priests, we're shocked and appalled, and glad it came out and in full support of the accusers. But when it's the "God" of our sport, oh no, it was just a little thing, and it happened SO LONG ago! Yes, I know people can change, but there still need to be some consequences.

                                          I would very much be surprised if more people don't make reports now that there's publicity on this. Which is sad. I definitely loved watching the man ride and teach, and always wished I could do a clinic. He's an absolutely brilliant horseman.




                                          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                          My CANTER blog.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X