Sport Horse Spotlight

IMG_6002

Real Estate Spotlight

_MG_4777-HDR

Sale Spotlight

index
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

George Morris on the SS list

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

    I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Room for a Pony View Post

      I am aware of two who were involved and are still in the industry. Sometimes working together, still.
      Yes there are plenty of bad apples that are still with us. Safe Sport is working on it, but they can't do anything about insurance fraud.

      USEF can, however, by their own rules, they must be able to refer to criminal charges and convictions of insurance fraud. I am guessing the folks you are speaking of weren't convicted?

      Safe Sport has more leeway, which is obviously required in cases of sexual misconduct between coaches and students.
      Last edited by skydy; Aug. 6, 2019, 12:57 PM. Reason: Spelling

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
        Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

        I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
        They have a central database of all sanctioned NGB members, separated by sport. Looks like plenty of folks in the couple categories I just searched (gymnastics, soccer, track) - even more than equestrian actually.

        https://uscenterforsafesport.org/res...nary-database/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
          Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

          I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
          if you read through the Rob Gage thread, nope, we're the worst in terms of public pushback against a d resistance to safe sport, according to a person from another sport who has been personally involved with safe sport operations.

          Hurray for us...
          Let me apologize in advance.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AllOverFarm View Post
            I’m wondering if the “ 50 yr old allegation “, is just a PR move ....similar to RG’s “ it was a mutual relationship with a girl just shy of her 18th birthday “.
            I’ve heard rumors of George liking young boys for years. This is no shocker to me. Wonder if tryon will change the name of its stadium & his name will be removed from any awards.
            Why wouldn't anyone try a PR "move"? It worked so well with Gage supporters.

            I know, it's so difficult and disappointing to see that your hero is not a good person, yet it is time that the victims of our "heroes" are taken into account. This has been going on for far too long.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

              if you read through the Rob Gage thread, nope, we're the worst in terms of public pushback against a d resistance to safe sport, according to a person from another sport who has been personally involved with safe sport operations.

              Hurray for us...
              I tried to keep up with the RG thread. But I got too busy for a couple of days, and then BOOM! 100 pages. I don't have time for that right now.

              I'm too deeply entrenched in the bubble that is the horse world to know what other sports are like, but I have to think that our culture of condoning these behaviors is exceptional. And not in a good way.

              Thanks for the confirmation I guess?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 541hunter View Post

                They have a central database of all sanctioned NGB members, separated by sport. Looks like plenty of folks in the couple categories I just searched (gymnastics, soccer, track) - even more than equestrian actually.

                https://uscenterforsafesport.org/res...nary-database/
                I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                  Yes there are plenty of bad apples that are still with us. Safe Sort is working on it, but they can't do anything about insurance fraud.

                  USEF can, however, by their own rules, they must be able to refer to criminal charges and convictions of insurance fraud. I am guessing the folks you are speaking of weren't convicted?
                  Both plead guilty to various things...conspiracy, lying. Didn't apparently learn anything from their sentences, though. And even with the internet they still get clients and run their businesses.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Room for a Pony View Post

                    Both plead guilty to various things...conspiracy, lying. Didn't apparently learn anything from their sentences, though. And even with the internet they still get clients and run their businesses.
                    Are they banned?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                      I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                      I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                      I wonder that all the time. The last few months have been eye-opening, to say the least. I work in higher ed in a very liberal corner of the country and do a lot of work around Title IX, sexual violence prevention, etc. and I’m definitely starting to realize how much of a bubble I live in. The response to the Safe Sport policies, RG, JW, and now GM has really surprised me.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post
                        Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

                        I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am not surprised at all to hear about GM and RG, but is this pattern turning out to be normal for other sports too?
                        There have been numerous other sports, which are more publicly high profile, like gymnastics and skating, that have had major issues, SS issued a report just on figure skating:
                        https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...rt/3053528002/
                        And Olympian Ashley Wagner just spoke out last week on her experiences:
                        https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/s...l-assault.html

                        The whole Safe Sport thing was created in the wake of the Nassar scandal with gymnastics.
                        https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...?module=inline

                        Swimming has also had their own issues, though I haven't followed much of that.
                        https://www.ocregister.com/2018/02/1...e-for-decades/

                        Congress wants MORE oversight by Safe Sport in the wake of what has happened in numerous sports:
                        https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/30/s...soc-abuse.html

                        I'd argue that equestrian suspensions seem like a Big Deal to those in the sport, but are a blip on the register of the bigger, higher-profile sports that draw a lot of eyes during the Olympics.

                        (Sorry, I can't figure out how to make the links pretty anymore!)
                        A Year In the Saddle

                        Comment


                        • I just want to encourage the bravery of the survivor who had the courage to report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                            l only see one. Jonathon Soresi and that is listed under suspensions/ineligible, not a permanent ineligible ban. Both are subject to appeal.

                            Surely we all must realize that this sanction was not imposed capriciously. Mr. Morris has friends and if money is the only hurdle to disproving the accusations against him, it will be provided by someone.
                            Jonathan worked for George at one time, I wonder if this could end up being worse for George. Jonathan is known for this around many communities...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Floridagirl71! View Post

                              Jonathan worked for George at one time, I wonder if this could end up being worse for George. Jonathan is known for this around many communities...
                              I am sorry to hear that he is "known for this" (ye gads not another one) although I suppose it's better late than never for the rest of us to find out.
                              Last edited by skydy; Aug. 6, 2019, 02:56 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rackonteur View Post
                                Sounds like McCarthyism all over again. "Safe" "Sport" witch hunts.
                                S P O T O N!!
                                Aefvue Farm Ft.Lauderdale

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                                  I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                                  I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                                  Complete speculation on my part but I would say potentially not per capita, at least regarding older accusations, however I'm basing this on my own experiences in that world (70s onward) and not on any kind of data.

                                  My take is that equestrian sports are/were unique from other sports in a few ways. Historically absolutely zero formal oversight for one. Kids frequently finding themselves alone with adult coaches, even though there may have been other people on the periphery doing their own thing.

                                  Then add in the phenomenon of delusions of grandeur affecting a lot of horsemen, from the lowliest camp coach to the upper elite for juniors. In all my youthful years of riding I rarely remember a coach being called out for inappropriate behavior. I'm not saying they all were predatorial (or bullies..a weirdly high number of the adult women in that world were frightening), only that other than maybe a quick eye roll, nobody challenged those who were. Like an unwritten code of hero worship and protection that closed ranks around some of these supposed demigods.

                                  Then there was the lack of parental supervision or in many cases any parent involvement at all, other than paying the bills.

                                  And finally you have the unusual situation where kids/teens are not only obsessed with their sport but with the animals themselves, and know they can be separated from them on a coach's whim.

                                  All in - a set of circumstances ripe for coercion and abuse.
                                  Last edited by ohmyheck; Aug. 6, 2019, 03:06 AM.
                                  One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                  William Shakespeare

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Andrew View Post

                                    S P O T O N!!
                                    You think Mccarthyism exposed sex abuse with minors?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                                      I guess my question is more like, "do other sports have as dark and ugly of a culture surrounding sexual misconduct as ours?"

                                      I'm sure other sports have as many or even more violators, but given that equestrian sports are so small, does any other sport have such a high rate?
                                      There's a new documentary out called At the Heart of Gold regarding the gymnastics scandal and all the mishaps that allowed Nassar to abuse girls (sometimes with their parents IN THE ROOM) for decades.

                                      I'd be interested in the reports/suspensions vs. membership totals as a statistic.

                                      There's a lot of argument about the reporting and investigation process, but in reality only some 45% of reports are investigated (they won't investigate anonymous reports for example, because likelihood of it being malicious)-we never heard about that 55%- and only some 3% of total reports result in an actual suspension.

                                      Common arguments being thrown around right now:

                                      1. "It was so long ago!" - well yea but does that mean all the catholic boys, or victims of jackson/cosby/weinstein/nassar have any more or less valid protection?

                                      2. "Standards and times were different!" - GM is pretty open about his bi/homo-sexuality. This literally could have gotten him lynched by the mob due to the attitudes of the time, as even consensual sex was illegal in most states until 1979 onwards. I imagine this played a role in making reporting both impossible and dangerous. Sex with minors also has a LOOOONG history of being illegal and morally objectionable. Straw man here.

                                      3. "Why wasn't it reported sooner to proper authorities?" - see above, see Larry Nassar.... and also think about if you would report your boss or coach if you thought it would ruin a promising/hopeful career.

                                      4. "But he never abused me!" - and my uncle never abused me, but it turns out he abused two of my brothers and my mother's brother and who knows how many others. Cognitive dissonance sucks, but sometimes that's just reality that otherwise good people can do bad things to other people.

                                      5. "Constitutional rights!" - USEF is a private club and they are cleaning house to ensure higher standards of professional conduct within the industry.

                                      5b. "Due Process! Innocent until proven guilty!" - again, private club, not looking at a prison sentence. Burden of proof is lower. Further, its SUPER common in industries with vulnerable people (hospitals, schools, churches, police etc) for someone accused of misconduct to be suspended until proven innocent in order to protect others. Can you imagine the sh*tstorm USEF would be in if someone else was molested while they took two years arbitrating with someone accused of pedophelia? Like... I would take them to the cleaners if my kid was victimized after someone had been openly accused of abusing kids.

                                      6. "Safe Sport is a witch hunt" - see my comments on the low % of investigations that move forward from initial report, and even lower rate of punishment (again for those at the back, like 3% of total reports have resulted in suspension). Also, the term witch hunt is a joke because witches don't exist- sexual predators do.

                                      7. "They don't release details. I need details to be convinced!" - sorry, but you're not judge and jury and unless you plan on heading the USEF it's really not your business. The privacy around names and allegations is meant to protect BOTH victim and accused. It is not our place to say "was that type of touching bad enough to bring down my idol".... part of Safe Sport's charter is specifically to remove protections provided by notoriety in insular sport communities. Realistically, what would the average person do with these details anyway, other than call the victim ugly names? See Hilary Ridland's post where she's told to rot in hell for offering the details the public BEGGED FOR.

                                      8. "SS is ruining careers" - plenty of people have lucrative horse careers outside the bounds of USEF

                                      Comment


                                      • For some reason I received the email this morning Australian time, also.
                                        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                                          I can’t believe there are people out there who are even the buying the PR spin that these sanctions are for a single incident that happened close to 50 years ago. We all know by know that the “permanent ineligibility” sanction is reserved for the most serious infractions and those who currently represent a potential threat to minors. He can appeal and if he does, I’m sure we will find out more. However I’m guessing that as in the Rob Gage case, other victims will feel empowered to come forward.

                                          And sexual misconduct aside, GM is literally the poster child for bullying in equestrian sport.
                                          Honestly I'm finding myself a little surprised by the reaction to this. I'm a nobody in this sport, I've competed at only a few rated shows in my lifetime, and even *I* have heard stories. Not just rumor mill stories but things directly from a person who trained with him for a while. Not just "innapropriate" conduct but also emotional abuse. That would have happened much, much more recently than "50 years"

                                          But I don't get the whole idea that something that would be a major offense now is somehow not important because it happened fifty years ago anyway. When we hear about old abuse allegations against priests, we're shocked and appalled, and glad it came out and in full support of the accusers. But when it's the "God" of our sport, oh no, it was just a little thing, and it happened SO LONG ago! Yes, I know people can change, but there still need to be some consequences.

                                          I would very much be surprised if more people don't make reports now that there's publicity on this. Which is sad. I definitely loved watching the man ride and teach, and always wished I could do a clinic. He's an absolutely brilliant horseman.




                                          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                          My CANTER blog.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X