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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by mvp View Post

    So can anyone who feels like paying buy Phelps' e-mails list and do their own direct advertising?
    I am assuming he hired Phelps to do the PR.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BLBGP View Post

      From what I understand, he used Phelps’ email list and other purchased horse-related lists, not USEFs. Many USEF members didn’t receive it.
      Phelps and Phelps Media isn’t exactly a person or business of fine outstanding character. He not only defended Ken Kraus but employed him at horse shows around children after he was convicted of lewd assault of a child under 16 years of age and was a registered sex offender.




      Comment


      • And it's happening again...

        http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more...mjO?li=BBnb7Kz

        This kind of thing is now getting exposed in every sport out there. Is it really that rampant with those that make it to the top of their sport? What happens to those who don't make it to the top? How many victims of this kind of abuse are there. It is mind boggling, and someone is going to go to great lengths to identify the kind of psychosis that allows some big name coaches to believe that this is OK. They'll give it a name- and, perhaps it will be called after one of the biggest offenders out there...
        When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
        www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
        http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • I wonder what will happen now with all of Epstein’s victims. Can they sue his estate for damages? Or was that already off the table due to the statute of limitations?

          This news story came out shortly before his suicide. It is not for the squeamish. While this article does not name the high school where they recruited many of the girls, a previous article said it was in Royal Palm Beach, Florida, which is about ten minutes from Wellington.

          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/09/n...it_ur_20190809
          Last edited by MHM; Aug. 10, 2019, 12:30 PM. Reason: ETA: Corrected the high school location.

          Comment


          • To go back to the beginning, what, it seems to me that Safe Sport is about, is not exactly the sex act itself, but the Casting Couch. What I mean is that in almost every area of life, people with the power to create a future for someone use that power in exchange for sex. They treat people as prostitutes who will sell themselves for a chance at power and fame.

            There is really no difference between Weinstein and Morris.

            This has been a part of humanity for as long as there has been humanity. There are plenty of people who will sell their bodies for their futures. And there are plenty of people who think this exchange is rational. And there are plenty of people who will take advantage of the Casting Couch.

            We seem to be at a sea change in acceptance of the Casting Couch. We no longer believe that it's acceptable to extort sex for career promotion. But when the people being extorted are so young that they do not have the wisdom to weigh the cost of giving sex against the benefits offered, who do not understand that this is a cold matter of business, who may not even recognize that they are being offered the Casting Couch, we now are saying that these young people (indeed all people) need protection from those who will extort sex in exchange for career promotion.

            That is what Safe Sport is about--protection from the Casting Couch, not consensual sex between equal adults.

            Comment


            • Parents sign a liability release form for their child at barns. Apparently, trainers need to sign a form stating they will not physically, mentally, sexually.etc., abuse the child. And, as well as "the talk", parents need to talk to their children about what is not acceptable behavior from adults and be very attentive to and welcoming about any of their child's concerns.

              I'm glad this has all come out into the open. Enough of the secretive, insidious behavior. Children should be messy and noisy, not silenced and "groomed".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                This kind of thing is now getting exposed in every sport out there. Is it really that rampant with those that make it to the top of their sport?
                I don't think it's just sport. Remember that study that powerful CEOs in business shared many traits with sociopaths? (I don't recall the exact details.) I think the abuse of power is rampant among the most powerful. Whether that manifests as sexual predation or financial misdeeds or just being a bullying asshole to people of lower status, that mindset is common among a certain faction of those at the top of anything.

                On another subject, I'm not really prone to conspiracy theories, but man, Jeffrey Epstein's suicide is certainly convenient for a bunch of powerful and well-connected men. Without him to take the rest of them down with him, I don't see this investigation going much further.

                "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                that's even remotely true."

                Homer Simpson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post
                  Well it finally happened, I had to unfriend someone on fb for being on the ISWG side. It was my instructor from when I was a teen. I’m absolutely disgusted, and more than a little bit heartbroken.
                  I, also, have been shocked to learn that some of my old friends are "standing with George." My fb "friends" list is having a makeover.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paks View Post
                    It wasn't a different time. I grew up in that time, child predation was neither legal nor accepted.
                    I concur.

                    I think the real difference is that most people were thinking in terms of teaching their kids not to take candy from strangers, or get in a car with a stranger. Which is still good advice, but does not cover every bad possibility.

                    Comment


                    • Spoiler alert, uncomfortable details coming..

                      This thread got me poking away at my years as a young kid at my very first barn in the 70s. Usually I keep that period of my life classified and stored as 'those times' in my head but now I find myself digging around in the dirt of those memories a little to see what insights I can glean.

                      It was a western show barn run by some well respected, dangerously handsome and highly charismatic brothers in their late twenties through early thirties, L and D. I would have been about twelve and one of the youngest, but the majority of the boarders were girls and women ranging from mid teens to middle age.

                      Throughout the time these trainer brothers were prepping clients for shows and riding their horses etc, there was of course a whirlwind of crushes, flirtations and dating with the young women at this barn. Me being the naive, innocent stick kid that I was, I observed wide eyed from my sphere of non participation and thought the whole thing looked like adult fun times! These young men treated me like a kid sister and I felt completely safe around them. My parents probed a little bit (about the culture in general there) but came along side pretty quickly.

                      One day I was standing outside a stall looking with awe at a beautiful new horse arrival and D came and stood next to me. We were talking about this horse together, me in my childish excited voice and him joking around and ruffling my head beside me, when he suddenly took a step back and wrapped his arms around me from behind. When I dissect it now he must have had to scooch way down because like I said, little stick kid and he was well over 6 feet. Anyway to this day I can remember going from a state of happy go lucky, carefree and trusting to completely frozen, rigid with incomprehension and confusion.

                      The details of his well oiled attempts at seduction during this encounter are not important, other than to say that at some point I unfroze and vigorously wiggled out of his grasp and felt myself float away down the barn isle in what can only be described as an out of body experience.

                      I subsequently found out that while simultaneously cavorting with and dating the adult female clients, D was routinely taking the teenage girls to an outbuilding and having his way with them, and that the adults in the barn were in the know about it. I was too young to understand the dynamics of what was happening but the betrayal was deep and permanent. And of course I never told anyone. Upon reflection I think D was so used to getting his way that he simply kept upping the ante..adults, teens, me.

                      L was never inappropriate with me or the teens and I fantasized at the time that he had swooped in like a superhero to protect me and soundly punch his brother out. He did pointedly ask me once if D ever made me feel weird. He must have noticed that I was now a different kid from the original model. And I said no. I didn't want my precious horse life rocked and I was scared of what would happen if I told.

                      So yeah not sure why I'm sharing this other than that maybe it has some relevancy to the whole 'back then' conversation.
                      Last edited by ohmyheck; Aug. 10, 2019, 04:49 PM. Reason: can't live with the gram/spelling errors : )
                      One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                      William Shakespeare

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

                        There is really no difference between Weinstein and Morris.

                        In a nutshell.

                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                          You know, it's easy to say "you should speak out" but when you're a powerless nobody and the perp is someone with money and power and attractiveness, it's not all that easy. You've seen the viciousness with which victims who speak out are attacked on social media. What about when the attackers would be your friends and neighbors, your barnmates, the people who take care of your horse? Maybe your child's trainer is involved in deals with the person you would be speaking out against? These people know where you live. They can hurt you or those you love.

                          We've heard that someone's in-laws were threatened. I remember my trainer telling me literally that he was lucky to get out of Chicago with his life during the 1970's. I've known people myself in this business that I felt were capable of doing absolutely anything to protect their way of life.

                          It's also easy to "know" something about someone. Being able to prove it is something else again. Finding someone who would listen might be even harder.

                          It's really easy to take the high moral ground and tell others they should speak up. In the real world, it might not be so simple.
                          I get it. But, again, riding is a hobby and option. One can walk. One might not like to, but one can. If we want to go down the rabbit hole of looking for constraints (or ways in which we have less power or could be seen as "a victim", I assure, you: We can find constraint and we can justify doing nothing. Almost everyone in this world bows to some kind of constraint. But, FFS, what does it take for an adult to stand up and say No? I mean, how far off the moral high ground are any of us willing to go?

                          IMO, it's worth having a frank talk with oneself about what kind of adult one wants to be.

                          But here's the thing: I think the "frank talk" most of these whispering adults are having with themselves are not about where the buck stops but, about whether or not sticking up for someone else being hurt unjustly in their barn and knowledge is "the hill they want to die on." And shame on anyone for deciding that, yeah, a kid getting molested isn't a worthwhile hill.
                          Last edited by mvp; Aug. 10, 2019, 12:12 PM.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • Ohmyheck, your story is probably like so many that others have compartmentalized. Thank you for sharing what must be a difficult memory
                            _\\]
                            -- * > hoopoe
                            Procrastinate NOW
                            Introverted Since 1957

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hoopoe View Post
                              I think this sport, like many others have a certain population of insecure people who are easily led.

                              mvp here I will disagree with you. I think it is very easy that some adults get led into situations which they do not see, do not understand or do not know how to cope with. There is a certain population who are psychologically insecure and unable to understand others( at least slow on the uptake)

                              they are easy prey to other adults who fluff them up, make them feel accomplished and lead them along keeping them "safe"
                              Yup. I do give credence to folks having different degrees of ego-strength. But one antidote do that is something like "herd immunity" in the vaccination world. If enough of us who possess thicker skins keep the industry tuned up to a half-way professional standard, those who feel powerless to protect themselves won't need so much protecting.

                              What I won't do, however, is be the one "volunteer" to do that because all the others cry "victim" or "I don't like confrontation" or don't want to get their hands dirty and take a step backwards, leaving me the only one taking a stand.

                              So while I am sympathetic to the *fact* that not everyone can stand up for themselves or, like me, feel that they don't have so much to lose that they'll accept any form of mistreatment, I'm not here to endorse grown adults retreating into the luxury of being immature and irresponsible.

                              And an ETA: This is why the #MeToo movement is important. It's about "lowering the energy of activation" if I may borrow a term from chemistry. In other words, we need to make speaking up not only for the exceptionally tough. Rather, it should be imaginable and feasible for regular, decent people.

                              One of the historical wrongs that can be corrected this way is the way that those who did speak up were not believed or got worse. That's belated justice for them and it's great for everyone now and in the future.
                              Last edited by mvp; Aug. 10, 2019, 12:37 PM.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                                I wonder what will happen now with all of Epstein’s victims. Can they sue his estate for damages? Or was that already off the table due to the statute of limitations?

                                This news story came out shortly before his suicide. It is not for the squeamish. While this article does not name the high school where they recruited many of the girls, a previous article said it was in Loxahatchee, Florida, which is the next town over from Wellington.

                                https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/09/n...it_ur_20190809
                                It was Royal Palm Beach High School
                                *****
                                You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Midge View Post

                                  I am assuming he hired Phelps to do the PR.
                                  I see. That makes more sense. Thank you for explaining... or making an educated guess. I was way out of the loop. Clearly.
                                  The armchair saddler
                                  Politically Pro-Cat

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                    To go back to the beginning, what, it seems to me that Safe Sport is about, is not exactly the sex act itself, but the Casting Couch. What I mean is that in almost every area of life, people with the power to create a future for someone use that power in exchange for sex. They treat people as prostitutes who will sell themselves for a chance at power and fame.

                                    There is really no difference between Weinstein and Morris.

                                    This has been a part of humanity for as long as there has been humanity. There are plenty of people who will sell their bodies for their futures. And there are plenty of people who think this exchange is rational. And there are plenty of people who will take advantage of the Casting Couch.

                                    We seem to be at a sea change in acceptance of the Casting Couch. We no longer believe that it's acceptable to extort sex for career promotion. But when the people being extorted are so young that they do not have the wisdom to weigh the cost of giving sex against the benefits offered, who do not understand that this is a cold matter of business, who may not even recognize that they are being offered the Casting Couch, we now are saying that these young people (indeed all people) need protection from those who will extort sex in exchange for career promotion.

                                    That is what Safe Sport is about--protection from the Casting Couch, not consensual sex between equal adults.
                                    Well.... I think the exploitation of the power differential is worse when the victims are children. So I'm not sure I'd "reduce" SafeSport to an "Also" to the exploitation of (adult) actresses in Hollywood. I mean, no one could credibly be confused about a child making a rational "economic" exchange of sex for career advancement, right?
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • Viney, how about the world of photographers and young models? I bet the Casting Couch is well used there!

                                      Comment


                                      • A couple posters seem to unintentionally or perhaps willfully misunderstand my posts.

                                        So, I feel compelled to clarify. I am not posing the question of whether GM did what he is accused of, or whether he is a bad person. As I've said several times, I suspect the answer to both of these questions is yes, although I have no inside information other than what I've read here and his general reputation.

                                        The question I've been addressing is more abstract: whether, IF GM follows through on his vow to challenge the ban in court, he will succeed. Again, I am not asking if he SHOULD succeed; I'm asking (from a lawyer's mind) whether he might be able to. Kind of like a law school exam question.

                                        My conclusion was that he may have some colorable arguments, revolving around the passage of time, due process, and ex post facto concepts, changes in laws and rules over time, and stemming in part from the possibility the court will not view USEF as merely a private club. I have acknowledged that I don't know how a court would ultimately rule (a process that could take years). Most likely a court would not bend over backwards to protect someone it perceived as an abuser/bully, but we'll see.

                                        So that's it. Probably I should be debating these issues on some kind of law discussion board. But please don't paint me as an apologist for child molesters. I'll kindly assume that as the legal discussion meandered, the starting point of my posts was lost, and people got the misimpression that I was defending GM. Sorry for that confusion.


                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by mvp View Post

                                          Yup. I do give credence to folks having different degrees of ego-strength. But one antidote do that is something like "herd immunity" in the vaccination world. If enough of us who possess thicker skins keep the industry tuned up to a half-way professional standard, those who feel powerless to protect themselves won't need so much protecting.
                                          Fantastic analogy.


                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                          Comment

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