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  • Originally posted by aristokat View Post

    Are you able to clarify the difference between "criminal disposition - involving a minor" and "sexual misconduct involving a minor"?
    Criminal disposition means that the sanction is based directly on a criminal court conviction or plea. IE, SafeSport did not investigate the case and the person is ineligible directly because of the court record.


    "sexual misconduct involving a minor" means that SafeSport investigated and made the finding. It could be that it involves cases outside the statute of limitations, it could be that a conviction was not obtained, or it could be that evidence was available to them that could not be used in a criminal trial - for example, sometimes witnesses are unavailable to participate in the trial, or evidence is excluded because of how it was obtained (like recording a phone call without consent or warrant). FiSk123 has shared some of those situations.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

    Comment


    • Originally posted by punchy View Post

      The fact that prominent people in this industry seriously think they can influence the NYT's editor fills me with renewed appreciation that people in this industry have such a misplaced sense of self importance and absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the world beyond their little private barns and their little fancy horse shows and the highways that run between the two.
      Oh my, you have just perfectly summed up a certain subset of the horse industry that drives me absolutely insane. Bravo.
      "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu
      Semantics

      Comment


      • The comments on Sarah Maslin Nir's page are astounding. There are no words for this:
        "In America, libel and slander resulting in defamation due to a false accusation of a crime, which is what your article is, are punishable. How hard is it for gay men of any age yet alone gay men of that time? And you defame one? Truly sick and deplorable. Who is next? Recovering addicts? Alcoholics? Who next will you defile with lies and clickbait?? Everyone falls down. We all make mistakes."


        followed by this:
        "How can any writer not consider Oscar Wilde when faced with a piece such of this? How can they not put themselves in the shoes of a young man in 1960 grappling with his sexuality."


        So this supporter is suggesting that the entire situation is because a man in his 30s was grappling with his sexuality and consequently sexually molested young boys because he was lonely and needed help finding himself? And that it was just a mistake of the kind we all make???
        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

        Comment


        • Originally posted by poltroon View Post



          In this case, the main public allegation seems to involve a 30 year old male having sex with a 13 year old male who was his student and under his care, and for four years. I mean, damn AHSA/USEF for not explicitly writing in the 1968 rule book that you couldn't do that. How could he have known?
          Where is the "public allegation" of sex with a 13 year old? The NYT only referred to 16 year olds and a "teenager." Given that the age of consent was 16, that is what has led to the discussion of what happens if the conduct was legal at the time.

          I agree, 13 year olds are a different story, but how are you certain that is the allegation behind the sanction?



          Comment


          • Originally posted by Alterforme View Post
            If in fact, he is proven guilty. Would the victims ( or family) be able to sue him for pain & suffering? I think about the 2 victims from the NYT article & how their lives have been rocky, well, one is even deceased. Heartbreaking.
            Almost certainly barred by the statute of limitations. While the criminal statutes of limitations for sex abuse have been extended substantially, that is much less true for civil sols. Most of them require action within a few years of the victim becoming an adult.

            Comment


            • As I said when Robert Dover opened his mouth, there is going to be a real intersectional crisis here where good people thinking they're defending a gay man against bigots, not a sexual predator targeting children against real and justifiable ire.
              Let me apologize in advance.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                Where is the "public allegation" of sex with a 13 year old? The NYT only referred to 16 year olds and a "teenager." Given that the age of consent was 16, that is what has led to the discussion of what happens if the conduct was legal at the time.

                I agree, 13 year olds are a different story, but how are you certain that is the allegation behind the sanction?


                It doesn't matter, 13 or 16. Safe Sport defines a minor as anyone under the age of 18. Age of consent isn't relevant.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                  Where is the "public allegation" of sex with a 13 year old? The NYT only referred to 16 year olds and a "teenager." Given that the age of consent was 16, that is what has led to the discussion of what happens if the conduct was legal at the time.

                  I agree, 13 year olds are a different story, but how are you certain that is the allegation behind the sanction?


                  If your argument is about the legality of the activity when it occurred, then the age of the partner in this case is irrelevant. New Jersey did not repeal its anti-sodomy laws until 1978.
                  "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu
                  Semantics

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 2bayboys View Post


                    If your argument is about the legality of the activity when it occurred, then the age of the partner in this case is irrelevant. New Jersey did not repeal its anti-sodomy laws until 1978.
                    Now we're going in circles. My assumption was that Safesport will not want to premise any action on laws that were clearly homophobic. It would be like basing an action on violations of Jim Crow laws that were in effect at the time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                      Once again, I'm just struck by how hard people will work for these justifications. I've experienced it myself.

                      For example: "Show me where it says in the rules I can't call another member incessantly on the phone and show up on their doorstep after I've been asked to stop." No, I didn't feel the need to explicitly state that in the rules for my online forum.

                      This is why the rules get more bureaucratic and exacting every year. "How the heck was I supposed to know defrauding an insurance company for paying someone to murder my horse and make it look like an accident would be against the rules?" Or, if you like, "How was I to know you would catch me for administering Reserpine to my show horses?"
                      This is why college syllabi get longer and longer.

                      "But it didn't *say* I couldn't hand in a lab report identical (down to the misspelling) to my roomie's!"
                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                      Comment


                      • @ Cat Tap
                        Is it possible that not everyone was a "victim". perhaps some were willing partners and did not feel abused?
                        Re Conrad:
                        I didn't say that I thought Conrad was a "victim" or speculate whether he thought he was a victim or not. I have absolutely no idea what Conrad thinks about his personal experience with GM. He was, however, a junior during his time at Hunterdon.

                        I meant exactly what I said - that if he was contacted by investigators he may well have been advised not to make ANY statement.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                          Where is the "public allegation" of sex with a 13 year old? The NYT only referred to 16 year olds and a "teenager." Given that the age of consent was 16, that is what has led to the discussion of what happens if the conduct was legal at the time.

                          I agree, 13 year olds are a different story, but how are you certain that is the allegation behind the sanction?


                          The age is a pretty educated guess based on a few of publicly available facts:

                          1. The first complainant, Jonathan Soresi, has publicly identified himself.
                          2. He is identified as being 63 in the NYTimes article, meaning he was born in 1955 or 1956
                          3. In his own public statement, GHM said the initial Safe Sport complaint was for incidents that occurred between 1968 and 1972. Jonathan was 12/13 in 1968.

                          There's also the number of people who know that Jonathan arrived at George's farm at 13. There may also be non-public information that's firmer than that calculation, but I find the math to be pretty solid.
                          Last edited by 541hunter; Aug. 9, 2019, 06:59 PM. Reason: fixed a couple words to make it clearer

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BLBGP View Post

                            Did the horse actually flip?
                            I know the girl in the story fell off, and I believe the horse flipped but I'd have to look at the passage again. MST wrote her own account of the same story that was included as well. I'll check when I get home.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Horsegirl's Mom View Post

                              Now we're going in circles. My assumption was that Safesport will not want to premise any action on laws that were clearly homophobic. It would be like basing an action on violations of Jim Crow laws that were in effect at the time.
                              My point is....saying that the sexual activity was not illegal at the time is just a distraction from the obvious.

                              At no time in our sport was it correct, appropriate, or in the best interests of the young people involved for an adult trainer/coach/employer to have a sexual relationship with a non-adult student/client/employee. It was not OK. Period.
                              "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu
                              Semantics

                              Comment


                              • Why not drag Kenneth Kraus into this as well? Does the horse show world just not care about kids? I stopped showing h/j over 10 years ago and am amazed that he remained announcing and taking pictures.

                                https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...-what-is-wrong
                                "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                                  The comments on Sarah Maslin Nir's page are astounding. There are no words for this:
                                  "In America, libel and slander resulting in defamation due to a false accusation of a crime, which is what your article is, are punishable. How hard is it for gay men of any age yet alone gay men of that time? And you defame one? Truly sick and deplorable. Who is next? Recovering addicts? Alcoholics? Who next will you defile with lies and clickbait?? Everyone falls down. We all make mistakes."



                                  followed by this:
                                  "How can any writer not consider Oscar Wilde when faced with a piece such of this? How can they not put themselves in the shoes of a young man in 1960 grappling with his sexuality."



                                  So this supporter is suggesting that the entire situation is because a man in his 30s was grappling with his sexuality and consequently sexually molested young boys because he was lonely and needed help finding himself? And that it was just a mistake of the kind we all make???

                                  Depressing that GM supporters wilfully keep throwing the gender of the abuser and the abused into their commentary to try and bolster their argument. It's a repugnant distraction tactic that's not gonna fly today.

                                  Completely irrelevant what was legal or not back then in terms of sexual orientation. Kids were abused, end of story. The pathetic attempts to explain away why it happened are hard to read.
                                  One touch of nature makes the whole world kin.
                                  William Shakespeare

                                  Comment


                                  • @ Tiramit I realise this is not your opinion and that you're quoting some idiot's comment on Sarah Maslin Nir's FB page with this line:

                                    "How can any writer not consider Oscar Wilde when faced with a piece such of this?
                                    I really had to laugh. Poor Oscar absolutely didn't deserve what happened to him; it was a terrible tragedy, but I just thought I should point out that he was, y'know, guilty. If there's any lesson to be learned from Oscar Wilde's case, it's that suing someone for libel when you actually did what they accused you of is very poor judgement.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                                      The comments on Sarah Maslin Nir's page are astounding. There are no words for this:
                                      "In America, libel and slander resulting in defamation due to a false accusation of a crime, which is what your article is, are punishable. How hard is it for gay men of any age yet alone gay men of that time? And you defame one? Truly sick and deplorable. Who is next? Recovering addicts? Alcoholics? Who next will you defile with lies and clickbait?? Everyone falls down. We all make mistakes."


                                      followed by this:
                                      "How can any writer not consider Oscar Wilde when faced with a piece such of this? How can they not put themselves in the shoes of a young man in 1960 grappling with his sexuality."


                                      So this supporter is suggesting that the entire situation is because a man in his 30s was grappling with his sexuality and consequently sexually molested young boys because he was lonely and needed help finding himself? And that it was just a mistake of the kind we all make???
                                      Unreal. So these people have tons of sympathy for the grown man grappling with his sexuality... but care not at all for the teenage boys who were USED by this man. What about the boys’ sexuality? They were just beginning to figure out this part of their own identity... they had a right to have age appropriate experiences, and take things slowly and work through their own feelings and identity in a way that was not harmful to them emotionally. But this selfish selfish adult man cynically used them for personal gratification. And now his supporters are using societal issues with respect to tolerance of homosexuality to justify it.

                                      ladyj79 - you called it. It makes me FURIOUS though personally.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Virginia Horse Mom View Post



                                        ladyj79 - you called it. It makes me FURIOUS though personally.
                                        Same, it's wildly irresponsible and wrong headed and actually forwards the evil bigot narrative that gay=pedophile and gays are out to abuse and convert kids.
                                        Let me apologize in advance.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by flofleming View Post
                                          I asked this on the new Facebook group, but I’ll try here as well. Has Conrad spoken up? If not, his silence is deafening. He was the right age, right look, right time period. How was his stay with George? As an Olympic medalist, he needs to have the strength of little Simone Biles and say something, one way or the other.
                                          You have no right to mention someone's name who may or may not have been a victim. You have no sense of propriety!
                                          Shame on you.

                                          Comment

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