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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

    THIS^ The obvious solution for those who wish to continue to exercise their right of free association is to drop their USEF membership and fill out recognized show entries paying the rat-bite "non-member fees." I would urge the same for anyone who'd like to go back to running their business normally without the paranoid overlook of the SS Stasi, which has no jurisdiction over United States interstate commerce whatsoever.

    Has anyone even considered what "message" these SS "rules" send to young people? You can't trust ANY adult. Everyone is a predator. You can never think you're safe, anywhere or with anyone, male or female. Never relax. Never confide. Never let anyone touch you for any reason. All men are rapists. Everyone's a victim and helpless. You still need a babysitter at 17, with mommie cc'd on every text. You're not allowed to exchange messages with younger friends because YOU might be accused!

    Does that sound like a recipe for resilient mental health in young adulthood? This is triple overkill, people!

    Actually, the message SS conveys to young people is that safe adults who have your best interests at heart will respect appropriate boundaries and follow a professional code of conduct. But by all means, continue to hyperventilate into your paper bag over your completely imaginary interpretations SS rules and processes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

      THIS^ The obvious solution for those who wish to continue to exercise their right of free association is to drop their USEF membership and fill out recognized show entries paying the rat-bite "non-member fees." I would urge the same for anyone who'd like to go back to running their business normally without the paranoid overlook of the SS Stasi, which has no jurisdiction over United States interstate commerce whatsoever.

      Has anyone even considered what "message" these SS "rules" send to young people? You can't trust ANY adult. Everyone is a predator. You can never think you're safe, anywhere or with anyone, male or female. Never relax. Never confide. Never let anyone touch you for any reason. All men are rapists. Everyone's a victim and helpless. You still need a babysitter at 17, with mommie cc'd on every text. You're not allowed to exchange messages with younger friends because YOU might be accused!

      Does that sound like a recipe for resilient mental health in young adulthood? This is triple overkill, people!
      That may be what would enter your head as a minor but I doubt most young people today are as ignorant or paranoid to take the SS rules to that hysterical end.
      There are many young people (most of them) today that are intelligent enough to understand that rules are rules, and who have good mentors and parents that are able to answer the kids questions about the rules.

      Most kids accept the rules because they are the rules. Their focus is on riding. Following the rules is the means to that end.

      Comment


      • I found this gem among the comments on the NYT's Facebook post of its George Morris article. It's probably going to be unreadable, so will quote below.
        Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2019-08-08 at 8.02.35 PM.jpg Views:	1 Size:	17.1 KB ID:	10449819




        Kyle Putnam "First, please refrain from using The Chronicle of the Horse message forums as a source. It's populated by anonymous individuals, many of which are nothing in real life as they claim to be online and have their own mental health issues. Second, I would love to see some real journalism into the negative impacts of SafeSport, accusations of crimes, and ruination of someone's reputation and career without being afforded a trial. I have zero opinion on George Morris. Rumors run rampant throughout at the horse world all the time. They should be taken with a box of salt. Abusers belong in prison, after they have been tried in court in front of a jury of their peers, not behind closed doors in a process that lacks any transparency."
        Last edited by Peggy; Aug. 9, 2019, 01:13 AM.
        The Evil Chem Prof

        Comment


        • For those of you who aren’t entirely supportive of George there is a new group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1339...989/?ref=share

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Peggy View Post
            I found this gem among the comments on the NYT's Facebook post of its George Morris article. It's probably going to be unreadable, so will quote below.
            Click image for larger version Name:	Screen Shot 2019-08-08 at 8.02.35 PM.jpg Views:	1 Size:	17.1 KB ID:	10449819



            First, please refrain from using The Chronicle of the Horse message forums as a source. It's populated by anonymous individuals, many of which are nothing in real life as they claim to be online and have their own mental health issues. Second, I would love to see some real journalism into the negative impacts of SafeSport, accusations of crimes, and ruination of someone's reputation and career without being afforded a trial. I have zero opinion on George Morris. Rumors run rampant throughout at the horse world all the time. They should be taken with a box of salt. Abusers belong in prison, after they have been tried in court in front of a jury of their peers, not behind closed doors in a process that lacks any transparency.
            I guess she thinks she’s something in the equestrian world? Cause I never heard of her
            Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

            Comment


            • Peggy, now that's funny. Ms. Pullman (I think that's the name) discredits COTH but leaves Horseshow Diva alone? And who knew that we all have mental health issues?
              "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

              Comment


              • Call me old-fashioned, but I think if people with concerns about Safe Sport want their arguments taken seriously, they should probably refrain from using the terms: witch-hunt, McCarthyism and SS Stasi.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Midge View Post

                  She mentioned her ex's family being attacked in her post. I knew Will when he was in Chicago, but wasn't sure if that was her first husband. Her names don't 'bother' me in the slightest.
                  That wasn't directed specifically at you, although you did pose the question that irked me. And your point is fair. But given that all of her exes were horsemen (and so it could be any of them) and that it seems that the original question is a) irrelevant to the point at hand, and b) a bit nasty to want to "unpack" someone's marital history, my point still stands IMHO. Speculating on which in laws were threatened isn't productive.

                  ETA: If she had wanted to name the ex or in laws, she would have.
                  Last edited by erinmeri; Aug. 9, 2019, 12:56 AM. Reason: R

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by erinmeri View Post

                    That wasn't directed specifically at you, although you did pose the question that irked me. And your point is fair. But given that all of her exes were horsemen (and so it could be any of them).
                    How are the rest of us supposed to know that if we don’t know the story on all the names? I didn’t know the background either.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                      Peggy, now that's funny. Ms. Pullman (I think that's the name) discredits COTH but leaves Horseshow Diva alone? And who knew that we all have mental health issues?
                      Putnam. I went back and put her name in. My original copy/paste included her name, but it came out as a hyperlink to her Facebook profile, which didn't seem entirely fair.
                      The Evil Chem Prof

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by HLMom View Post

                        I'm sorry, I think you have misunderstood the point I was making. It isn't a question of what is illegal now; it is a question of what was illegal in the 1970's. And the follow-up question is: if SS bans someone based on conduct that was legal at the time it occurred, will that be upheld in a court of law (assuming someone challenges it).

                        Of course, this may all be moot if "Fisk" is correct that SS is basing the sanction on more recent conduct and/or conduct that was clearly illegal. We will just have to wait and see.
                        Safe sport and criminal law are 2 seperate entities.

                        SafeSports jurisdiction covers all victims under the age of 18. Period.
                        What was or wasn't NJ criminal law then or now has no bearing on SafeSports ruling
                        *************************
                        Go, Baby, Go......
                        Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hereforadvice View Post
                          For those of you who aren’t entirely supportive of George there is a new group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1339...989/?ref=share
                          Started by someone with no last name, no searchable FB activity & a weird profile pic??

                          Just say no please
                          *************************
                          Go, Baby, Go......
                          Aefvue Farms Footing Inspector

                          Comment


                          • Did anyone link the new NYT article? Sorry if this is a repeat.

                            https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/08/s...ge-morris.html
                            A helmet saved my life.

                            2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bip View Post


                              Actually, the message SS conveys to young people is that safe adults who have your best interests at heart will respect appropriate boundaries and follow a professional code of conduct. But by all means, continue to hyperventilate into your paper bag over your completely imaginary interpretations SS rules and processes.
                              You can’t believe that. Why don’t you ask a young person what SafeSport conveys? You will get an entire different response that your fantasied version.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Irish Ei's View Post

                                Safe sport and criminal law are 2 seperate entities.

                                SafeSports jurisdiction covers all victims under the age of 18. Period.
                                What was or wasn't NJ criminal law then or now has no bearing on SafeSports ruling
                                Yes, I think we all understand that.

                                The question is whether that could be challenged in court. People say, "a private club can do whatever it wants." However, I'm not sure a court would agree that USEF is merely a private club, like Tarrytown Bridge Club or Norwell Elks Club. The reason is that USEF has near-monopoly control over a particular livelihood--i.e., being a hunter/jumper professional. And yes, I know you can still teach riding in your backyard even if you are banned from USEF, but let's all be honest and admit it's not the same, and if you were not already a famous trainer it would pretty much cut off your ability to become one. I think likening it to a state bar association or medical board is somewhat apt.

                                A true private club can make whatever rules it wants: "No women" "No Asians" or whatever. I'm not so sure that a group that exercises such powerful control over a particular profession can do so. Does anyone really believe USEF could make a rule barring Asians or women?

                                Remember, private universities are "private," but courts have struck down their sexual assault tribunals on the ground they don't provide adequate due process. So clearly there are limits on what some private institutions can do.

                                I don't think these issues are simple. I will be very interested to see what legal challenges are raised and how they are decided.

                                I support SS's mission, and i don't defend GM, but as an attorney I'm definitely intrigued by how this will go.

                                Comment


                                • As an attorney you must know that the Safe Sport requirement regarding the prohibition of instructor/minor sexual contact is absolutely not comparable to a private club denying membership to people based on their race or religion.

                                  "Private universities" I'm sure you know, are not strictly private as they all, to an extent, receive funds that preclude them from truly private status. They are not free to break the law willy-nilly.

                                  As a poster up thread mentioned, people that violate the rules of their organization regarding sexual or behavioral contact with minors, are not a protected class.

                                  Comment


                                  • GM is shown as suspended on the FEI database - not sure if this link has already been posted, 20 more pages on this thread since I last looked!

                                    https://data.fei.org/Person/Performa...5E923865EA59E7

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Happyhack View Post
                                      GM is shown as suspended on the FEI database - not sure if this link has already been posted, 20 more pages on this thread since I last looked!

                                      https://data.fei.org/Person/Performa...5E923865EA59E7
                                      The FEI has reciprocity with SS and thus NGB suspensions. George will no longer coach for Brazil, or any other country.

                                      No USEF, no FEI, no clinics arranged and attended by USEF members.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by RugBug View Post

                                        Just a quick note that downplaying the impact of an SS decision is disingenious. If it really only had the impact as noted above, they why even have it? What a waste of time and energy.

                                        The truth is that, while someone could still be involved in horse sports, it would look VERY different.

                                        Of note - when an employee is released from a job, there are options for wrongful termination. I know I mentioned it on another thread, but that does make me wonder if (when?) we will see lawsuits against SS or USEF.
                                        There is already one brewing! The Lopez brothers in Taekwondo had suspensions overturned in arbitration because the women did not want to testify in front of them. Apparently the bone of contention is that the women were never offered the option to testify live, remotely which is listed as an option in the policy? But there was an ongoing federal lawsuit against them (with an additional two plaintiffs beyond the 3 in the SS report)... They've added SS to the lawsuit saying the overturned suspension on those grounds was damaging. So they're suing the Lopez men AND SafeSport now.

                                        Comment


                                        • I stand with the victims. I have known GM since I was 9 years old. He is a brilliant coach, a master. He is also an incredible judge of people and a master manipulator, which is one of the reason why he can get the most out of his students. He is charming, he is funny, he can talk about just about any topic. He loves to travel and meet new and interesting people. I am now 42 years old and I last saw George about 4 years ago, we spent a few nights catching up at a weekend away with some horse friends and he helped me with my horse, got on him and jumped him around. It was wonderful.
                                          Having said all that I must point out something which I am so surprised no one seems to have noticed. In his very own book he talks several times about how he has two sides to his personality. He discusses his wild party days, how he would go off the rails in the 70s and blow off steam after the horse show. There is a professional, very ‘grown up’ side to GM and there is a childish, petulant - what he would call ‘naughty’ side to him as well. He talks about those wild days to his friends often.

                                          I did not actually train with GM, my mother wouldnt let me. I trained with his assistant coaches and did the equitation, not the jumpers. I did not witness anything but there have ALWAYS been - from the time I was a child until most recently a few years ago - much much younger boys /men around him. As he got older they were more ‘boy toys’ - definitely over the age of 18 but always way way younger than George himself.

                                          His reach into the sport is extraordinary. Go back and read his book. With the exception of Missy and Andre (although Andre’s mentor was Judy Richter who has a long and close relationship with GM) - anyway, his ‘reach’ into the big name trainers and helping put them on the map in some way or other is why he is being defended / protected (call it what you will). He has doled out favours his entire career. He is not Santa and has never professed to be so. He has calmed down in his elderly age but believe me - in the 70s and 80s and most of the early 90s - if you were called on by George to do something, no matter how old you were - you did it.

                                          Imagine having that kind of power and then imagine a teenage boy going to live with him. He had teenage boys living with him all throughout his years at Hunterdon. And whatever happened in that house (and I am not saying this was Jeffrey Epstein, mind you, I am not saying that at all), but can’t we all admit that there is an enormous power dynamic there just waiting to be exploited?
                                          And then look at his protégées - his students, Let’s see. And in no particular order. Bill Cooney. Who had a relationship with Frank Madden who was a junior at the time. Frank who then went on to have a relationship with Stacia Madden who was a junior. And then went on to have another relationship with a junior. All of that is absolutely well known.


                                          And then there are his other protégées which I think are noticeable for their ABSENCE in his book - Conrad. Ray Texel. Where are they in standing up for him? What did they see or experience?

                                          I am a woman. I could very easily write something like Katie did - I never witnessed anything. He has been nothing but wonderful and supportive of my riding. My grandmother, mother and myself have known GM. My grandmother told me stories of GM when he quite riding and worked in NYC as an actor. That is how far back we go. I have never witnessed anything inappropriate myself but there have always been rumours.

                                          Candice King, Molly Ashe, Katie Prudent. They can all stand up for George. But my darlings, you are women and you are not George’s cup of tea.

                                          I stand for the victims.

                                          Safe sport has many flaws but this has been in the works for a couple years. The public may be surprised but EVERYONE who is anyone in the horse community has known about this investigation. The investigation has concluded and he has been found guilty.

                                          It is a sad sad week for our sport.

                                          He is and always will be an amazing teacher, a “teacher’s teacher”. A huge guiding force in our sport for 50 + years. It is upsetting even for me to see him stripped of all that because he is VERY GOOD AT HIS JOB.

                                          But people are complex and they are more than just one thing. And I encourage everyone to re-read his book with new eyes and take a breathe and try and take the great things he has taught us about horses and riding, but please recognise that there are victimS here. I believe the safe sport board would not have found him guilty without real proof. I really do. No one wants this to happen to our sport. It is a sad day for everyone involved.

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