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George Morris on the SS list

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  • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

    Seriously? You don’t get it at all. Just because someone is an asshole to you doesn’t mean every word they say is a lie, as you admit as you say it is probably true he wasn’t interviewed before the interim sanction was handed down by a potentially non-trained investigator. So you are cool with that, right, because you don’t like her/him? I am not, I have defended some people in court I really didn’t like. That has no bearing on my ability to analyze the facts. Keep emotion out of it.

    I have not defended GM at all. I only asked people to wait with RG. Oh, so now we have MB, whom everyone condemned immediately and now it looks like he actually may have a self-defense claim....

    truth is usually best found if you drop preconceptions and keep an open mind. But who cares about truth, we have the internet!
    I am because we aren’t taking legal proceedings. We are talking about being able to go to horse shows.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Arelle View Post
      I'm not a USEF member currently as I switched over for a few years to the breed shows and let it lapse, so I have not taken the mandatory SafeSport training - but could someone chime in for me..

      I looked up the SafeSport Policy (https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0...includes-minor) - not because I wanted to defend any sexual predator, but because I wanted to understand the charge of "sexual misconduct with a minor". Am I looking at the correct section when I see the following?:


      Once someone is posted to the list, SafeSport doesn't actually go into detail about which subcategory the accusation falls under - correct?

      How does SafeSport determine which charge to use? I also see there's a section for "Other Inappropriate Conduct" that includes conduct of a sexual nature - does SafeSport ban participants for multiple offenses? Like "Sexual Misconduct" and "Other Inappropriate Conduct"? Or is there a difference in the charges?

      Seems to me like if he wasn't caught on the sexual aspect, he damn sure would've been reported for the entire "Emotional Misconduct" section based on his own autobiography alone, so being upset about the ban itself is a moot point.
      The Section C: Sexual Misconduct part of the SS Code pasted within the above post includes "sexual or gender-based harassment" and "bullying or hazing" in addition to far greater offenses involving actual sexual contact.

      As many posters above have described, most of George's clinics have long included hazing, fat shaming, dumb blonde jokes, and personal put-downs. Today, even calling a boy a "sissy" or a girl "fat" could be reported as a violation. But bear in mind that MAY be ALL he did. This may be SS's way of telling him that in the present this is no longer acceptable conduct, and not an influence they want in the sport, and that's fine. I also think one should get a warning that one's conduct is in violation before getting slapped with suspension.

      At the moment no one knows what specific part of that Section C. code he's actually accused of violating; and many here who are referring to GHM already as a "rapist" and "child molester" as though we have proof of that may be jumping the gun; he may in fact have never done anything but dole out his famously creative verbal abuse.

      Perhaps the schadenfreude should be toned down some . . . while we wait for the facts to come out.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

        I am because we aren’t taking legal proceedings. We are talking about being able to go to horse shows.
        What about the post you quoted has anything to do with what you say in response? Please advise why emotion and preconceived notions of who you like is relevant to procedural issues. I am seriously confused by your response. Rules should apply to everyone and be fair to everyone whether we like that person or not. Even horse show rules. Keep in mind I make no claim as to the guilt or innocence of RG or GM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pds View Post
          SafeSport sure has alot of people with “skeletons in their closet shaking in their boots”. I say GOOD!

          Makes me really wonder about some of the most vocal opponents to SafeSport.

          Time to drain the equestrian swamp!
          Dracarys 🔥

          Comment


          • J
            Originally posted by poltroon View Post
            Holy cats.

            I used to ride a mare like that. She had a stop but she would jump for me. A better rider would get on her and she was dirty as hell, really as her only defense.

            I think it was always clear to me from his books that he liked riding more than he was actively affectionate towards the horses. In fact, I find that attitude pretty pervasive around professionals, such that I actively look for pros that (still) like horses when choosing an instructor. So maybe that's why it didn't seem disqualifying.

            Someone mentioned that he wrote about the sweater incident (girl wearing a pink sweater, forced to get off the horse and roll in the dirt) in his book, which shocks me that he would want to share that. I had been looking for the account written by a spectator that I think I read here, back in the day. I wasn't willing to give him money to read the book but I admit to my curiosity about what else is in there.

            Again, his statement that "Any allegations that suggest I have acted in ways that are harmful to any individual, the broader equestrian community, and sport that I love dearly are false and hurtful." is so obviously far from the truth to all of us. And how ironic that he would then say, words said about him are hurtful.
            I may have written about a similar incident. Girl’ horse slammed on the brakes and ducked out in front of a jump. She came off and ended up hanging upside down from the standard by one leg. Since she couldn’t extricate herself, two men lifted her off. She was bushing off her sweater when George said something to the effect of - don’t brush off your sweater — get back on your horse! It was not delivered in a pleasant manner.
            The Evil Chem Prof

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

              The Section C: Sexual Misconduct part of the SS Code pasted within the above post includes "sexual or gender-based harassment" and "bullying or hazing" in addition to far greater offenses involving actual sexual contact.

              As many posters above have described, most of George's clinics have long included hazing, fat shaming, dumb blonde jokes, and personal put-downs. Today, even calling a boy a sissy or a girl "fat" could be reported as a violation. But bear in mind that MAY be all he did. This may be SS's way of telling him that in the present this is no longer acceptable conduct, and that's fine.

              At the moment no one knows what specific part of that Section C. code he's actually accused of; and many here who are referring GHM already as a "rapist" and "child molester" as though we have proof of that may be jumping the gun big time; he may in fact have never done anything but dole out his famously creative verbal abuse.

              Perhaps the schadenfreude should be toned down some . . . while we wait for the facts to come out.
              I think where people are reluctant to believe that it could have "just" been verbal sexual harassment is that there are so many less-nuclear options for sanctioning that Safe Sport could have taken. Their spokesperson said in response to inquiries about this case that permanent ineligibility is reserved for the most egregious of cases; I've got a feeling they ain't banning someone from participation in ANY USOC sport organizations for calling someone fat, especially not someone with as high a profile as George.

              That's not to say he definitely raped a ton of 12 year olds. But it absolutely indicates that the allegations against him (which were found to be true in an independent investigation) are extremely serious.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cosmopolis View Post

                Dracarys 🔥
                Damn straight. Watch out for that dragon fire!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Silk View Post

                  OK.....I think: the Medall was her maiden name, the Simpson was her first marriage to Will Simpson, the Harding is her latest husband (but no one I have heard of and I dont believe he is an equestrian). I dont know anything about the Ferguson part of her name other than it was her second husband. She has been married three times aand keeps all the names because "they were all long relationships" or something like that
                  They have all been riders: Ferguson I believe a western rider. Cole Hardin is a farrier and rides western as well, I believe.
                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                    What about the post you quoted has anything to do with what you say in response? Please advise why emotion and preconceived notions of who you like is relevant to procedural issues. I am seriously confused by your response. Rules should apply to everyone and be fair to everyone whether we like that person or not. Even horse show rules. Keep in mind I make no claim as to the guilt or innocence of RG or GM.
                    So if you are in fact a criminal attorney you know people get hemmed up in the system and if innocent or you put on a good enough show they get off on the charges. Kathy’s statement is so full of crap because she acts like she was the acting lawyer and conveniently leaves out she has a pro bono attorney.

                    Again I have spoken to friends who strictly practice appellate law and they wouldn’t touch these cases with a ten foot pole. Why? No one’s constitutional rights are being violated. Child molesters are not a protected class.

                    Nothing that Safe Sport does violates any legal issues .

                    But by all means, offer your services to those accused. I have zero problem with how Safe Sport operates. I can see why you would though.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by gottagrey View Post

                      sorry - maybe I misread your post when you stated the membership of USEF - I was referring to the USEF membership and other disciplines not knowing (or caring) who George Morris is.

                      Will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
                      Gotcha. My post you responded to wasn't referring to the majority of USEF members; I was referring to joining USEF to spite those in the FB group who were threatening to leave over Safesport. It was really just a joke.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                        @ Tiramit



                        I'm not arguing that it's OK, or has ever been OK, but here's what Wikipedia has to say:

                        For example, Edgar Allen Poe married his first cousin in 1835 when she was 14. Sorry, I was a history major.
                        No problem. It looks like the age was raised in the late 1800s and most states had the 16-18 in place by the 1920s. Still far enough in advance of the 1970s for every adult to be aware that any sexual encounters between an adult in his or her 30s and young teenagers was not only gross, it was against the law.
                        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                          As many posters above have described, most of George's clinics have long included hazing, fat shaming, dumb blonde jokes, and personal put-downs. Today, even calling a boy a "sissy" or a girl "fat" could be reported as a violation. But bear in mind that MAY be ALL he did. This may be SS's way of telling him that in the present this is no longer acceptable conduct, and not an influence they want in the sport, and that's fine. I also think one should get a warning that one's conduct is in violation before getting slapped with suspension.
                          Pages back, one poster, who uses her real name, recounted an experience at a show where George Morris repeatedly called a 16 yr old female student a c**t (rhymes with tiny puppy but not as cute). A father's young daughter overheard this word several times and the father went to show management about it. So no, calling kids fat is NOT "all he did."

                          A grown man - teaching a 16 year old female student - calling that student a c**t - THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT MAN.
                          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                          Comment


                          • Sarah Maslin Nir's New York Times article about George Morris, titled "Whispers of Sexual Abuse Tailed an Equestrian Legend for Decades. At 81, He Was Barred for Life." was just released: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/08/s...ge-morris.html .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                              Ok, I will probably regret this but I am attorney and I have spent a lot of time working for people denied process. I am NOT making any claims about the accused here. I do not know the facts and cannot make claims about their veracity.

                              so, we have all seen the SafeSport flow chart posted about how the process works, whttps://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-...-Process-2.pdf

                              we have also seen Kathy Serio’s Post about her experience.

                              the process flow chart purports that during the intake process, they have preliminary information gathering and initial contact with the involved parties. According to Kathy, there was an email sent hours before the release of suspension with Tommy. I do not find that sufficient. They did not interview him or provide any actual information about the claim so he could defend himself. It leaves me questioning whether they follow their posted policies.

                              Note on the flow chart that this limited “preliminary information gathering and initial contact“ is done before a “trained investigator” is assigned to the case. The interim suspension is also handed down before the trained investigator is assigned to the case. But the interim suspension is announced publicly, also before a trained investigator is even involved.

                              that is one area I believe could be improved. Or, at least, their description of it leaves me shaking my head.
                              I believe they have already stopped the interim suspensions in most cases.
                              *****
                              You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                              Comment


                              • ^&*()(*&^%#$!! NY Times won't let me see the article without subscribing. I don't care about access to NYT Cooking and the crosswords.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                                  ^&*()(*&^%#$!! NY Times won't let me see the article without subscribing. I don't care about access to NYT Cooking and the crosswords.
                                  You can "subscribe" without paying anything. You get only a limited number of articles to read for free, which is understandable, but it should suffice for this purpose.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                                    The Section C: Sexual Misconduct part of the SS Code pasted within the above post includes "sexual or gender-based harassment" and "bullying or hazing" in addition to far greater offenses involving actual sexual contact.

                                    As many posters above have described, most of George's clinics have long included hazing, fat shaming, dumb blonde jokes, and personal put-downs. Today, even calling a boy a "sissy" or a girl "fat" could be reported as a violation. But bear in mind that MAY be ALL he did. This may be SS's way of telling him that in the present this is no longer acceptable conduct, and not an influence they want in the sport, and that's fine. I also think one should get a warning that one's conduct is in violation before getting slapped with suspension.

                                    At the moment no one knows what specific part of that Section C. code he's actually accused of violating; and many here who are referring to GHM already as a "rapist" and "child molester" as though we have proof of that may be jumping the gun; he may in fact have never done anything but dole out his famously creative verbal abuse.

                                    Perhaps the schadenfreude should be toned down some . . . while we wait for the facts to come out.
                                    One "should get a warning before being slapped with a suspension"? I hope you qualify that because I can't think of the types of prohibited behaviors which would be questionably acceptable. Your blanket statement brings to mind acts like child rape. Does that warrant a stern warning?

                                    I suppose, based on recent history, that some adults might be unclear on this point and a patient but firm talking to and perhaps a finger wag would let them know this is not okay and they had better not do it again.
                                    "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by FiSk123 View Post
                                      Sarah Maslin Nir's New York Times article about George Morris, titled "Whispers of Sexual Abuse Tailed an Equestrian Legend for Decades. At 81, He Was Barred for Life." was just released: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/08/s...ge-morris.html .
                                      To be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed. I didn't see any allegations later than the 1970's -- 40 years ago. The superb journalists of the NYT couldn't find anyone to confirm that the behavior persisted past the 1970's?

                                      I'm not shedding any tears for GM-- I am pretty unforgiving of bullies. But I wonder if SS has more evidence. It is entirely possible someone would be willing to make a confidential report to SS but not willing to talk to a reporter.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Crashing Boar View Post

                                        The Section C: Sexual Misconduct part of the SS Code pasted within the above post includes "sexual or gender-based harassment" and "bullying or hazing" in addition to far greater offenses involving actual sexual contact.

                                        As many posters above have described, most of George's clinics have long included hazing, fat shaming, dumb blonde jokes, and personal put-downs. Today, even calling a boy a "sissy" or a girl "fat" could be reported as a violation. But bear in mind that MAY be ALL he did.
                                        I am extremely confident that SafeSport is citing serious sexual contact and not "calling someone fat." If it were the latter, not even George would say that the verbal hazing conduct ended in 1972.

                                        According to the NY Times article, which is still pretty sparse, there are multiple accusers but they are not disclosing the total number. Jonathan Soresi is the only public one and he would have been ~13 in 1968 and GM would have been 30.

                                        There's a link to the COTH forums in the NYTimes article but it goes to a wholly nonsensical page.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by HLMom View Post

                                          To be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed. I didn't see any allegations later than the 1970's -- 40 years ago. The superb journalists of the NYT couldn't find anyone to confirm that the behavior persisted past the 1970's?

                                          I'm not shedding any tears for GM-- I am pretty unforgiving of bullies. But I wonder if SS has more evidence. It is entirely possible someone would be willing to make a confidential report to SS but not willing to talk to a reporter.
                                          As I understand it the journalist who wrote the piece was working independently and was not aware of the SS investigation. When the news broke I imagine there was a push from the editors to capitalize on the timing and get a story out.

                                          Comment

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